Beef: Choosing, Preparing, Cooking

[nickrey]

Scientific research back to 1979 (Buck, Hickey and Rosenau, Journal of Food Science) reported that meat cooked in water (ie sous vide) is more uniformly coloured, more tender, and gives greater cooking yields. This is due to the conductivity of the cooking medium making it very relevant for a discussion on cooking methods.

The sous vide thread is long and comprehensive, McGee contains extremely relevant information for those who can understand it. Perhaps the questions can be refined after these sources have been consulted so we do not waste our time stating what is apparently obvious.

[Baron d'Apcher]

which is why im wondering why braising is ever used is it just to get the sauce or is it specifically with the moist heat breaking down certain...

Both. And the flavor from reduction of the sauce and caramelization of the protein/garnish can not be achieved in sous-vide.

[Renn]

To address your Faviken question specifically, and high end restaurants generally, he states in the book that

1. He prefers to have the range of donesses in a direct cooked steak

2. He also prefers not to rest and reheat (fresh baked cookie analogy)

That is why he prefers it to sous vide. He specifically dislikes an edge to edge homogeneous piece of beef, and also dislikes rested and reheated beef.

Other high end restaurants make use of direct heat meat cookery to great extent, Extebarri, Manresa, Bras, Roberta's/Bianca, even Mugaritz and I'm sure hundreds others. Like every method of cooking, how you go about it and what result you want is a choice. What the dining public may see as a trend/monopoly is only a matter of perception. Restaurants all over the world cook their food in myriad ways...but what's reported tends to skew towards novelty/trend identification.

I don't have any sources to cite, so feel free to repudiate or challenge, but I feel that in the context of tender beef cuts, skillfully applied direct heat surpasses sous vide in retaining a heterogeneous mouthfeel. Magnus describes it as the range of doneness, but in my experience, there is also a difference in the release of fat and lean on the chew. It is also very much possible to have edge-to-edge "perfect" doneness via direct/oven heat. These are both phenomena that I see little talk of, but that I attribute to public perception more than lack of example. Direct heat, a la minute cooking of beef is a serious challenge, as depending on the cut cooking times are quite long. A 3 1/2" square cross sectional piece of sirloin can take roughly 40 minutes to cook. And if the restaurant chooses to rest/reheat, that can add even more time. This requires a serious amount of timing management, so it's easy to see why many restaurants love sous vide. In the latter case, all of the temps can be set in the prep period, and the portion rethermed for pickup.

As for why you don't see braises more often in high end fine dining...one answer is that it's simply more difficult to make a braised beef cut look presentable. Diners are very visual, and regardless of the deliciousness in the mouth, the red center/brown exterior will generally be more appealing than the duller brown/grey of braised meat. Another answer is that, if the dining public is sitting down to a "high-end" meal which ends with a cut of beef, the expectation is for a more "high-end" (i.e. rib, loin, etc) cut of beef. Benu has served braised beef, and noma does a wonderful dish of braised beef cheek cooked in hay...so there are definitely beef braises in the highest-end kitchens, but it is far from common.

[acidfrog]

Scientific research back to 1979 (Buck, Hickey and Rosenau, Journal of Food Science) reported that meat cooked in water (ie sous vide) is more uniformly coloured, more tender, and gives greater cooking yields. This is due to the conductivity of the cooking medium making it very relevant for a discussion on cooking methods.

The sous vide thread is long and comprehensive, McGee contains extremely relevant information for those who can understand it. Perhaps the questions can be refined after these sources have been consulted so we do not waste our time stating what is apparently obvious.

Think you are missing the point

you are simply repeating your self in recycled words about the difference in conductivity between different heat source which is all fair and well for stroking yourself but pretty irrelevant to what i am asking for

Infact i have looked over it again and you have completely misunderstood what was being asked but i will give you an A* for your description of the difference in direct and moist heat well done clap clap

Edited October 16, 2012 by acidfrog (log)

[acidfrog]

WOW that is awesome Renn, really great answer

definitely what i was looking for i love how through this forum you may not instantly get what you are hoping for but at some point an absolute superstar will prevail

is there any science behind the leaving and reheating ? or is it just down to his preference

will take tonight to think through your bit of brain juice

[Renn]

I'll leave aside your impolite comments just this once, if only because the question is interesting, but don't expect me to do it again.

Resting and reheating is generally done so that:

1. The meat is cooked to the proper temperature

2. The rest allows the juices to thicken and stay in the beef until chewed, rather than spilling out with the knife

3. It's reheated to serve the beef at a warm temperature.

[acidfrog]

yeah sorry about that but maybe i have incorrectly picked up a bad smell from parts of this forum which i have smelt far to often in and out of kitchens as it is if that is wrong and i am incorrect then i can only be sorry

but i have meant no offense to you personally

ah yeah i meant behind not preferring to leave something to rest as opposed to why one would do it

aka

- 2. He also prefers not to rest and reheat (fresh baked cookie analogy) -

[Renn]

Well, he feels that beef simply is never as good reheated as it is just cooked. And I think he has a point, as vegetables cooked a la minute are almost always better than vegetables cooked before hand and reheated. Just, as in his example, fresh baked cookies just cooled down enough are better than cold cookies reheated in the oven. We always make compromises in the kitchen, it's just natural. Magnus's interest lies in upending some of the compromises that most take for granted.

[Ronniebisme]

I have decided to do this at a low temp as to not over shoot the desired medium rare temp - 130 degrees

My issue is that I am feeding 8 and am struggling to figure out when to start the cook, it seems I could find it on the web - but nothing conclusive .  Hoping someone here has done it or has some insight 

 

Thanks in advance 

Ron

[Smithy]

Hello, @Ronniebisme - there's certainly a lot of discussion around here about good times and temperatures for roasting large chunks of beef. I'm sure you'll get a lot of guidance. Your membership has been approved, and you're free to post in the forums. You may wish to introduce yourself by starting a new topic in the Welcome Our New Members! forum. See you around!

[Ronniebisme]

Thank you. Hoping to hear from those in the know! 

[Ronniebisme]

thinking 2 hours ?

[Smithy]

You're in a private area where only you and staff can see the conversation. Please go back and look at my original response to you.

[Ronniebisme]

I am thinking 2 hours - searched the web but nothing conclusive.  I will have a thermometer inserted and will watch , but looking for a ballpark time 

Hoping someone here has the answer.

 

disclaimer - I have looked at various ways to cook a beef tenderloin , I understand the high heat  VS low heat, as well as Sous Vide , I have a big group , coming , and high heat seems too risky , want to end up at  medium rare 

 

Thanks in advance 

 

 

[Ronniebisme]

got  it , started a new topic under cooking

[gfweb]

Sous vide is the easiest solution. Can you do it?

 

Even a hot water-filled cooler will work., You don't even need a circulator.  Just touch up the water occasionally.

 

2 hours seems plenty assuming the usual tenderloin shape

[Deephaven]

If you don't of course you could cook it and then bag it and keep it warm in water you keep at 120 or so....if it finishes early that is.

Edited February 16, 2024 by Deephaven (log)

[Dave the Cook]

There are so many variables that contribute to an answer here that I am tempted -- as  I'm sure many here are -- to encourage you not to try a new recipe (or technique) for company. However, that advice did not always stop me. So I will say this:

1. I assume by the weight you're talking about, that this is a whole tenderloin and not the prettier--and more manageable -- chateaubriand: a piece out of the heart of the tenderloin that can serve, depending on size, 2 to 6 people.
2. If this is the case, be dure to tie the roast into a uniform shape, especially tucking the thin tail under the less thin, but still tapered, end.
3. Figure that -- again with the variables -- that at 225°F, the roast will take from 2 to 3 hours. You won't know until you've done it a couple of times.
4. Salt early for best flavor.
5. If it only takes 2 hours, reverse sear (and a good, hot sauce) will save you (as will, in combination), early salting.
6. Forget a long rest -- slow cooking obviates the need -- but use brown butter to finish it.

Good luck.

 

[Ronniebisme]

great info and very kind to help me out.   Sous vide is out for this event , although I love to cook that way , my equipment wont handle this cut

Yes a whole tenderloin, Ill tuck and string the piece, and will time at 2.5 hours   I have a MEATER probe so I will watch carefully .  As I  understand and the main reason I am going this low temp route is the carry over from cooking is only 2-4 degrees and easier to control  We shall see !!

I will let you know the results  Thanks again 

 

 

[Ronniebisme]

here is the result - 2 hrs 15 min , removed from oven at 128 - went to 130-131, quick sear in a big cast iron skillet with browned butter - , minor rise in temp but came out perfectly , timing worked out as well.  No complaints from the guests !  Only thing I would change the next time is the open time in the fridge, I went with 48 hrs , I think 24 or less would be fine , areas of the beef had a tougher than I like crust by the time I seared and served 

Thanks all for your help

[Smithy]

That looks wonderful, @Ronniebisme! I wouldn't complain if served that. In fact, if somebody else were to complain I'd demand they do the cleanup and forgo any leftovers!

 

Thanks for reporting back.

[Dave the Cook]

I'm impressed. 

[ElsieD]

Very nice!

[Ronniebisme]

thanks all!

[gfweb]

I use a pyrex dish and add a cup of red wine, 1 tbsp tomato paste, two tbsp soy, an onion in wedges and a carrot sliced (don't omit the carrot, it matters).

 

Th liquid should come halfway up the meat. Add water as needed.

 

Cover with foil and bake at 250 or 300 for 3 hours.

 

Although I use lots of SV, the product  is different than the braised beef and I like braised here.