Lamb Curry: Cook-Off 4

[FoodMan]

Is there a preferred cut for curries? I am thinking in the same way a lot of folks prefer beef chuck for stews for instance.

←

I don't know -- interesting question. I've only ever used leg of lamb, which I love to cut up. I also have few other options.

←

I think I have seen lamb "shoulder" mentioned. Maybe it was in one of those shows with Jaffrey on FTV. I think that would be comparable to beef chuck or pork butt. I will ask around and maybe call a couple of specialty butcher shops. (Although, that will require an in-town trek.)

If most of our choices of cut are so limited, what do they do with the other parts of the lamb?

←

Fifi-

My local HEB carries several different cuts of lamb. This includes shoulder cuts, breast (with ribs), as well as the more common legs and chops. Try the HEB you go to, they might have it as well. The shoulder and breast are not expensive and they are very tasty.

I actually have a large breat cut in the freezer that I might use to join this interesting thread. I will either use one of Monica's recipes or an interesting one by Jamie Oliver!! We shall see...

Elie

[suzilightning]

ohhhhhh...research.

johnnybird is going away in a week or so... so i will plan on doing this when he is gone(he HATES the smell and taste of lamb). instead the dangerous dining companion, 'chelle, who is from england and i will have a cool lunch

[Chris Amirault]

Chris, I've never tried Penzey's spices. Do you think they're better than what you can buy cheaply in bulk at an Indian store, should you have one in your general vicinity?

←

I buy all my Penzeys through mail order (though I'm eager to get to the Boston store sometime), but I place a pretty big order three or four times per year. There are certainly things that I have to get at our local Indian store, and I certainly wouldn't want to call into question the quality of bulk stuff at yours. But I've been very happy with the quality of stuff at Penzeys, which seem to exude the essence of any given spice in ways that other purveyors don't, and I have found that the bulk items at my store vary widely in terms of quality and freshness.

[Chris Amirault]

first a question though.. what defines a curry? For example, I have a lamb recipe that I often make. It's from Claudia Rodens Book of Jewish Food and she calls it "Lamb with chillies and tamarind". It has cumin, coriander, cinnamon, cloves and chillies as the aromatics and it's finished with coconut milk.  It's not what I'll be making for the cook-off because I want to try something new, I'm just wondering what makes a curry a curry?

←

This is an excellent question! I will check out a few reference texts this weekend and post some answers.

[torakris]

Chris, I've never tried Penzey's spices. Do you think they're better than what you can buy cheaply in bulk at an Indian store, should you have one in your general vicinity?

←

I buy all my Penzeys through mail order (though I'm eager to get to the Boston store sometime), but I place a pretty big order three or four times per year. There are certainly things that I have to get at our local Indian store, and I certainly wouldn't want to call into question the quality of bulk stuff at yours. But I've been very happy with the quality of stuff at Penzeys, which seem to exude the essence of any given spice in ways that other purveyors don't, and I have found that the bulk items at my store vary widely in terms of quality and freshness.

←

I too am a huge fan of Penzey's, on my trip back to the US last summer I bought a bunch of spices from an Indian shop that had recently opened up but I have to admit I was really dissapointed. Penzey's were much fresher and tasted better....

I place a massive order every year and about 90% of my spice cabinet comes from their store.

Where is the Boston store? I will be there for at least a couple days this summer and I would love to check it out!

Edited February 25, 2005 by torakris (log)

[percyn]

Is there a preferred cut for curries? I am thinking in the same way a lot of folks prefer beef chuck for stews for instance.

←

I don't know -- interesting question. I've only ever used leg of lamb, which I love to cut up. I also have few other options.

←

I think I have seen lamb "shoulder" mentioned. Maybe it was in one of those shows with Jaffrey on FTV. I think that would be comparable to beef chuck or pork butt. I will ask around and maybe call a couple of specialty butcher shops. (Although, that will require an in-town trek.)

If most of our choices of cut are so limited, what do they do with the other parts of the lamb?

←

Lamb shoulder, known as "Seena", is probably more popular in Indian Parsi dishes than leg meat. It has a wonderful texture and a little bit of fat for flavor. There are usually cooked while leaving the meat on the bones, which also enhance the flavor.

In India the shanks (known as "Nali") are normally cut into smaller (approx 1") pieces, which is mainly used for the bone marrow, know as "Ghur".

Edited to add: Click here to see what they do with some of the "other parts" !!

Edited February 26, 2005 by percyn (log)

[Milagai]

shouldn't all this be about goat rather than lamb?

milagai

[percyn]

shouldn't all this be about goat rather than lamb?

milagai

←

Yes, it typically is goat, but that is harder to get in the US.

Edited February 26, 2005 by percyn (log)

[NulloModo]

Goat is just old lamb though, isn't it? or is lamb young sheep?

[FaustianBargain]

Goat is just old lamb though, isn't it?  or is lamb young sheep?

←

goats are not as fatty as lamb/sheep, iirc.

[Chufi]

well, my curry adventure is on the way.

I'm making Rogan Josh, from a Madhur Jaffrey recipe. here's everything lined up.

In the small green bowl are cloves, cardamom, pepper corns and dried chillies: the frying spices.

On the oval white plate are dried coconut, chopped almonds, cumin seeds and coriander seeds: the roasting 'spices'. In the small white bowl are mace, nutmeg and turmeric: to be added to the paste as they are.

Here the meat is fried in batches in ghee, together with the frying spices.

The roasting spices are roasted and then put in the blender together with the fried spices, nutmeg, mace & turmeric. To the blender are added: ginger, garlic and water. This is blended to a paste.

Onions are fried in ghee and to this the paste is added and slowly fried:

Yoghurt, chopped tomatoes and water are added. This sauce joins the meat for some gentle simmering:

My notes so far:

This is very different from the way I usually cook. I noticed that I kept going back to the recipe dozens of times, because I was always wondering if I was doing it right. Some things seemed strange: using whole cardamom pods for the paste, frying spices before adding meat, etc.

having never worked with ghee before, I can now say Ghee is Good!

Can't wait to taste it..

[Chufi]

Dinner was great. After 2 hours of simmering, the lamb was tender but the liquid was quite thin, so I cooked it for another half hour uncovered, to thicken.

Served it with rice and home made coriander paratha's. It was very rich and quite mild.

One observation: you really need to blend the spice paste very well. I think mine was not blended enough, it had too much texture, and I had one or two bites where I could actually taste a little piece of coriander seed or cardamom.

[little ms foodie]

Chufi it looks great!! Thanks for sharing your pictures and your thoughts. Maybe next week we will get a chance to do this!

[percyn]

Goat is just old lamb though, isn't it?  or is lamb young sheep?

←

NulloModo, you may be thinking about the difference between sheep and mutton (which is a mature sheep, over 3yrs I believe).

[Milagai]

shouldn't all this be about goat rather than lamb?

milagai

←

Yes, it typically is goat, but that is harder to get in the US.

←

but not impossible, given the general proliferation of

indian/pakistani/bangladeshi; middle eastern; caribbean stores etc.

i am sure egulleters would enjoy rising to the challenge of

getting their goat...

i believe there is a big taste difference?

even factoring in all the spices etc.

milagai

[Eden]

I'm just wondering what makes a curry a curry?

←

Not that this answers your question exactly, but here's an excerpt from the wonderful Alan Davidson's "Oxford Companion to food" that helps explain the confusion & gives the origin of the term:

"Curry, a term adopted into the English Language from India, has changed it's meaning in migrating and had become ubiquitous as a menu word. It now denotes various kinds of dish in numerous different parts of the world; but all are savoury, and all spiced.

The Tamil word kari is the starting point. It means a spiced sauce, one of the sorts of dressing taken in S. India with rice, and soupy in consistency. Different words in Tamil refer to stew-like dressings (meat, fish, poultry, vegetables, in small quantities) and to 'dry' dressings. Europeans however, fastened on the word kari and took it to mean any of these dressings. Hobson-Jobson (1903, Yule and Burnell, 1979) who gives the fullest (and most entertaining, but in some respects confused) account of the term's history up to the beginning of the 20th century, observes that the Portuguese took over the word in this manner, and cites evidence that a recipe for karil appeared in a 17th century Portuguese cookery book, probably reflecting a practice which had begun in the 16th century."

[snowangel]

Chufi, what cut of lamb did you use? Thanks for inspiring me to put this on the front burner, so to speak.

[M. Lucia]

Looks great Chufi.

I wanted to add that this recipe for Lamb Curry looks good, and seems to satisfy the discussed qualities.

[patti]

Will it be a sinful thing to use lamb chops in my lamb curry? My choices were limited, although later I found one small package of lamb shanks at another meat market. Could I combine them in the same lamb curry? This will be new ground for me.

[Chris Amirault]

Hi everyone,

Chufi! Great photos! You should be a food stylist! And sparrowgrass, your diagrams made me laugh out loud!

I'm hoping to get to our curry today, though I haven't quite picked out the recipe. First, though, I want to respond to patti's question:

Will it be a sinful thing to use lamb chops in my lamb curry? My choices were limited, although later I found one small package of lamb shanks at another meat market. Could I combine them in the same lamb curry? This will be new ground for me.

←

Patti, I think that the meat on rib chops will be a bad idea for a curry that's braised for a while. It's likely to get more, and not less, tough as you cook it. The braising class that's going on right now can give you the reasons for why that is.

Ok, more in a sec. I'm jazzed!

[Chris Amirault]

I'm just wondering what makes a curry a curry?

←

Not that this answers your question exactly, but here's an excerpt from the wonderful Alan Davidson's "Oxford Companion to food" that helps explain the confusion & gives the origin of the term:

"Curry, a term adopted into the English Language from India, has changed it's meaning in migrating and had become ubiquitous as a menu word. It now denotes various kinds of dish in numerous different parts of the world; but all are savoury, and all spiced.

The Tamil word kari is the starting point. It means a spiced sauce, one of the sorts of dressing taken in S. India with rice, and soupy in consistency. Different words in Tamil refer to stew-like dressings (meat, fish, poultry, vegetables, in small quantities) and to 'dry' dressings. Europeans however, fastened on the word kari and took it to mean any of these dressings. Hobson-Jobson (1903, Yule and Burnell, 1979) who gives the fullest (and most entertaining, but in some respects confused) account of the term's history up to the beginning of the 20th century, observes that the Portuguese took over the word in this manner, and cites evidence that a recipe for karil appeared in a 17th century Portuguese cookery book, probably reflecting a practice which had begun in the 16th century."

←

My source -- Maguelonne Toussaint-Samat's History of Food -- also explains the reference to kari and tells the (old wives'?) tale of the Englishman Sharwood, who, when dining with the Maharaja of Madras in the late 19th century, was told about the spice shops that had contributed to the evening's dish. In the colonizing spirit of British empire-builders, he obtained a license to import the "Madras curry powder" to London, along with a sweet condiment from Bombay known as catri that he called "chutney."

That is to say, to cook generic "lamb curry" using "curry powder" is already to cook something that is a colonial invention and not as authentic as, say, a specific dish like Chufi's rogan josh.

[Chris Amirault]

On to the pork or beef question!

can I substitute pork or beef.....?

←

I didn't forget you, Kristin!

Here's what Julie Sahni has to say in her great Classic Indian Cooking in her recipe for "Goanese Hot and Pungent Curry (Vendaloo)":

Vendaloo is the famous fiery-hot, mustard-laced dish from Goa, a state on the southwest coast of India. Traditionally, vendaloo is made with pork, but there are many variations prepared with beef, chicken, lamb, and even duck. Pork is rarely eaten in India, except by the Portuguese Christians in Goa. Even though some religious sects permit the eating of pork, it is not as highly prized a meat in India as lamb or chicken. Indians tend to regard the pig, who eats most anything from anywhere, with suspicion. Another reason for its lack of popularity is that the feed-corn needed to raise the best grade of pig for good pork is not grown in India on a wide enough scale to feed an animal population.

The recipe (for about 1 1/2 lbs of pork) creates a marinade with the Indian equivalent of the holy trinity (onion, garlic, ginger) as well as some pan-roasted and ground spices, cider vinegar, and oil and marinates the meat for 8 hrs at room temperture (!) or for 48 hours in the fridge (!!). Cooking is with some tamarind pulp, onions, and a few other things, including the left-over marinade.

[sparrowgrass]

Goat is just old lamb though, isn't it?  or is lamb young sheep?

←

NulloModo, you need to get out of the city more often. Goats and sheep are different critters.

A young sheep is a lamb, until it is about a year old. Older than that, the meat is called mutton.

A young goat is called a kid.

For a picture of a sheep go here.. To see a sweet little lamb,

try this spot, and don't forget the mint jelly.

This page will show you a big daddy goat (called a buck, not a billy) and a mama (doe) with her kids. That particular breed of goat is a Boer, and they are raised for meat. We have several producers here in this part of Missouri, and the carcasses go for more per pound than beef.

[patti]

I'm hoping to get to our curry today, though I haven't quite picked out the recipe. First, though, I want to respond to patti's question:

Will it be a sinful thing to use lamb chops in my lamb curry? My choices were limited, although later I found one small package of lamb shanks at another meat market. Could I combine them in the same lamb curry? This will be new ground for me.

←

Patti, I think that the meat on rib chops will be a bad idea for a curry that's braised for a while. It's likely to get more, and not less, tough as you cook it. The braising class that's going on right now can give you the reasons for why that is.

Ok, more in a sec. I'm jazzed!

←

Chris, my thinking was that I could braise the lamb shanks and add the lamb chops near the end of cooking. So, maybe I'll freeze the lamb chops for now, and search a little further for other cuts. Lamb just isn't a hot commodity here. I found one shop with a leg of lamb for $36 and a crown roast of lamb for whatever price, but since I'm not sure my husband or son will even TASTE this lamb curry, those choices didn't make sense (whether appropriate for the dish, or not). Thanks for your help.

[Chris Amirault]

I had to make some ghee before starting the curry this afternoon, and I took a few snaps for folks who haven't made it before. It's very simple and just requires a good ear and eye.

So: four sticks -- a pound -- of unsalted butter into the pan on medium heat:

For a while, after melting, it bubbles around; the white solids mingle and the water is boiling off hard:

After a while, the soilds drop to the bottom, but it still boils (thanks to the lousy US butter, with quite a bit of moisture still trapped in it):

This is the crucial moment. You can see that the bubbling has turned into light foaming; if you could hear it, you'd listen as the crackly, bubbly popping gets quieter and quieter until it's nearly silent:

At the bottom, you will see that the white solids are starting to darken into a light brown. At this point, you're pretty much ready to strain it through a cheesecloth-lined sieve into a pyrex bowl or measuring cup:

See the brown bits on the pan? That's what you don't want in the ghee (along with any water, but that's boiled off by this point). You now have golden, clear ghee, aka clarified butter, ready to go: