All the best restaurants in the UK

[Suzi Edwards]

This week's media round up has two stellar reviews; L'Enclume in Cartmel and The Star at Harome in Yorkshire. Add Anthony's to this equation and you have an interesting concept.

Is the best food in the UK being cooked outside of London?

Is this true? And if it is true, why?

[Andy Lynes]

London is unquestionably still the place to go for the highest standards of food preperation, service and innovative design. It's also the best place for "ethnic" cusine. That said, there are restaurants that are as least as good as the best of London (Hibiscus and Le Campignon Sauvage immeadiately spring to mind) and that is definately a growing trend.

I'm sure this is partly because some chefs simply don't want to live and operate a business in London anymore because its an over crowded market and expensive to live in so they are moving elsewhere, Simon Rogan being a case in point. This is nothing new however has been happening for years, with the likes of ex-Le Gavroche head chef Steven Docherty installed at The Punch Bowl in Cumbria since the early nineties, and Stephen Bull moving to The Lough Pool Inn in Ross-on-Wye a few years ago.

There still aren't enough really decent places outside of London, but it's possible that we might see some sort of critical mass reached in the provinces over the next 5 - 10 years that pushes up standards right across the board. But I'm not holding my breath!

[Carlovski]

I think it is slightly more complex than that. London is still the best city for food. There are still a lot of good provincial and country based restaurants, but they are a different type of establishment.

The thing that is still lacking is decent places in other Cities and large towns. Manchester, Birmingham and Leeds may be improving, but most other places are still a wasteland - Try and find somewhere in Southampton for example.

[Andy Lynes]

Try and find somewhere in Southampton for example.

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An alternative, and arguably more expedient course of action, would be to raze the place to the ground and build somewhere nice instead.

[Carlovski]

Don't think anyone could really take offence at getting rid of Southampton.

Although I'm sure something more constructive and less destructive might also be possible...

Just look what they did with Manchester (I know some people wouldn't agree, but nobody can argue that it is much better than say 15 years ago)

I know it's not exactly the most exciting venue, and despite my general distaste for chains sticking a Hotel du Vin in every place with over a 100,000 or 2 people might not be a bad thing.

[YKL]

hmm ... well my tuppence worth is that I think of London as a place which has by far the wider choice and range of restaurants in the UK, so that is bound to help the averahe. But this is also a weakness since unless you have a specific recommendation, then you can also eat badly or mediocrely (is that a word?!) - for quite a lot of money (that's the Yorkshire in me I suspect). I.e. the jewels can be hard to spot amongst the shedload of pebbles. Wasn't there a thread recently where people said they felt quite jaded by London?

As I mulled over this topic, I also got to wondering whether this growth in stellar establishments outside Zone 1 was demand led i.e. consumers have been crying out for a decent alternative to Pizza Hut, and besides, 80% (random guess to be corrected ) of the country don't actually live in London ....

or perhaps more product/supply led - i.e. chefs looking to be their own boss, without paying extortionate rentals, different pace of life, wanting to push the boat out in terms of their cooking or develop relationships with truly local food suppliers?

I'd also like to say that i share Andy Lynes' pessimism about some sort of critical mass being reached in the "provinces" over the next 5-10 years. But this is more because I think that despite the increased overall interest levels in food, I still feel like a bit of a food freak in terms of my enthusiasm for food and restaurants. I'm not convinced that there will be a mass interest in raising food standards generally because despite many glorious British food traditions, food just doesn't seem as central in British culture as say Italian, French or Chinese (or that could be just my family!). So, despite the brilliance of people like Simon Rogan, Anthony Flinn and Nathan Outlaw ... there may be some sort of natural limit.

cheers

Yin

[YKL]

I know it's not exactly the most exciting venue, and despite my general distaste for chains sticking a Hotel du Vin in every place with over a 100,000 or 2 people might not be a bad thing.

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Up until Thursday I would have been quite receptive to that idea, but the meal we had in the Harrogate Hotel du Vin was a little disappointing really. Shame really.

[Winot]

With regard to tarka's question, it might be partly perception -- living in London is pretty tiring and I know sometimes my appreciation of a restaurant is hampered by having struggled through a day at work and then through the commuter crowd. By contrast, if I'm rested and relaxed on a weekend away I'll probably enjoy the food more.

[Carlovski]

I know it's not exactly the most exciting venue, and despite my general distaste for chains sticking a Hotel du Vin in every place with over a 100,000 or 2 people might not be a bad thing.

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Up until Thursday I would have been quite receptive to that idea, but the meal we had in the Harrogate Hotel du Vin was a little disappointing really. Shame really.

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That is a shame. It's odd - you could really see Harrogate having a thriving restaurant scene - the Ludlow of Yorkshire.

Still don't think it's a bad idea though - Only ever heard good things from the Winchester one.

[Gary Marshall]

This week's media round up has two stellar reviews; L'Enclume in Cartmel and The Star at Harome in Yorkshire. Add Anthony's to this equation and you have an interesting concept.

Is the best food in the UK being cooked outside of London?

Is this true? And if it is true, why?

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yes - the best food is being cooked out of london, if we define best as haute-ish cooking.

when i had to see mrs marshall's friends in london i was pushed to think of somewhere i really wanted to go for dinner. The ramsay empire is good but predictable, marlon abela (?) seems to be going the same way. London is best for cheaper ethnic, i will happily make the trip down south for a curry at tayyabs or kebabs at the mangal. (and if you're paying ok, i'll go to ramsay's too!)

those of my knowledge such as Anthony's, the star, winteringham fields, hibiscus, number 3 can hold their own against anything in London, and there's plenty more i haven't tried like l'enlcume, loves, jessica's for example.

Obviously there's not the depth of choice but for that elusive/subjective 'what is the best restaurant in the UK' well, i don't think a london based one would win it. (for my money hibiscus/anthony's)

as for why i think it boils down to money and way of life, unless you do a ramsay and get a big hotel backer the costs are astronomic, and if you look at the pricing most of the best country restaurants can charge 'london' prices and be full, it's win/win, make the money and have a bit of a life too, especially if you have a family, though don't think out of london is an idyll, rents in leeds and ludlow are much higher than they were 5 years ago and places like the star are very hard to come by, and the expense account diners are much less frequent.

cheers

gary

Edited December 21, 2004 by Gary Marshall (log)

[Suzi Edwards]

Out of interest, are the chefs at these places (specifically the Star, L'Enclume and Anthony's) originally from the places that they open restaurants in?

[Gary Marshall]

think simon rogon is a southerner, he wanted to be out of london and was looking brighton way (unlucky andy!) when someone told him about the l'enlcume site.

andrew pern is from whitby i think (not a million miles away from harome) and tony flinn i think was born in liverpool but grew up near wakefield which is 20 mins from leeds.

cheers

gary

[VeryApe77]

London has some great food options, but I think it's true that at the moment, the restaurants that are most interesting (to me, at least) on the high-end scale are outside of the city. The last time I was in London, the only "fancy" place that really seemed all that interesting to me was St. John (and that was more for nostalgia then anything else), which really isn't all that fancy anyway. I was vaguely interested in going to one of Ramsey's places, but in the same way that I'm vaguely interested in Charlie Trotter's place in Chicago - more of a sense of duty then a sense of real excitement.

I agree with Gary that a lot of this has to do with the huge price of opening a place in a city like London. This probably also explains why most of the more interesting places in the states are outside of NYC. Moto probably wouldn't last 5 minutes in Manhattan (unless there were some serious moneybags behind it), but in a desolate meat packing neighborhood in the Midwest, it can do quite nicely, thank you.

[Suzi Edwards]

...Moto probably wouldn't last 5 minutes in Manhattan (unless there were some serious moneybags behind it), but in a desolate meat packing neighborhood in the Midwest, it can do quite nicely, thank you.

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Why's that? WD-50 does very well in NY and they are serving the same genre of food (even if they don't have the same ambience)

[VeryApe77]

...Moto probably wouldn't last 5 minutes in Manhattan (unless there were some serious moneybags behind it), but in a desolate meat packing neighborhood in the Midwest, it can do quite nicely, thank you.

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Why's that? WD-50 does very well in NY and they are serving the same genre of food (even if they don't have the same ambience)

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True, true. It did occur to me that WD-50 is the exception that proves the rule here. I guess, in my defense, this boils down to three things -

1. WD-50 is not quite s "hardcore" as Moto - for example, you can order a la carte, instead of having to go with the tasting menu option, and they have a wine list. This instantly make it a lot more accessible for the speedy urban diner...for example, I know people who have been known to grab a quick bite at the bar at WD-50 on their way to the movies or a gig, which I can't imagine ever doing at Moto.

2. I believe that Jean-Georges in a partner at WD-50. I think he probably comes under the "serious moneybags" category.

3. I probably don't really know what I'm talking about.

Edited December 21, 2004 by VeryApe77 (log)

[Suzi Edwards]

I didn't know that about J-G. I guess Wylie was also a name Chef with a very strong repuation before he started WD-50. That had to help...

I wouldn't worry about not knowing what you're talking about (although clearly you do!) Try reading some of Andy's posts, it's clear he just makes it up as he goes along ;-)

[Andy Lynes]

Try reading some of Andy's posts, it's clear he just makes it up as he goes along ;-)

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There's years of experience and painstaking research behind every one of my carefully composed posts - which are made up as I go along.

[culinary bear]

All the best restaurants in the UK, are not in London. Why?

A fitting piece of natural justice.

[Gary Marshall]

All the best restaurants in the UK, are not in London. Why?

A fitting piece of natural justice.

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[BertieWooster]

That is a shame. It's odd - you could really see Harrogate having a thriving restaurant scene - the Ludlow of Yorkshire.

Still don't think it's a bad idea though - Only ever heard good things from the Winchester one.

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Harrogate is a lot, lot bigger than Ludlow. SO either it should be better, or it's missing that small-town size appeal.

I'd go for Ilkley (but then I would) as the Yorkshire Ludlow with a re-nascent Box Tree and the over-fussy but still rather good Devonshire Arms plus two top-end bistros. Not quite Ludlow, but not a bad place for foodies to live.

Or Helmsley, with the Star just down the road and the Feversham Arms causing good reports. It's also got a castle and a very good deli, just like Ludlow...only thing it's missing (I think) is a greasy spoon. We're off to The Star for lunch. If the wind doesn't knock us off the road...

[YKL]

That is a shame. It's odd - you could really see Harrogate having a thriving restaurant scene - the Ludlow of Yorkshire.

Still don't think it's a bad idea though - Only ever heard good things from the Winchester one.

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Harrogate is a lot, lot bigger than Ludlow. SO either it should be better, or it's missing that small-town size appeal.

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Sorry - should probably have been more clear on my previous note. The food was fine (although my starter was probably the worst choice, should have selected the orzotto like my friend which was very good), but unsatisfactory parts were not getting the water we asked for, then about four attempts by four different waiters to take away my friend's starter before she finished (always make me cross!) and then a 45 minute wait for main courses.

We were in quite a relaxed mood but given that there are a lot of very good dining options in Harrogate, then it's a shame that the competition hasn't spurred it onto better things. Like you say, have generally heard good press about the various branches of HDV.

Apologies for hijacking this thread - in a vague attempt to try and get back on track, I would suggest that Harrogate is a clear example of where there is plenty of money to be spent, (and dare I say it, ladies who lunch?) and so overall, there are a lot of good dining options.

Cheers

Yin

[Suzi Edwards]

Isn't Ilkley where Bonaparte's was?

For the uninitiated, Bonaparte's is where the first episode of Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares was filmed.

Now I'm not suggesting that I believe everything that I see on the TV, but Ilkley wasn't portrayed as a budding destination food town.

[YKL]

think bonapartes was in Silsden - close but not Ilkley.

(what am I doing - surely i should be extolling the virtues of Leeds! DOH!)

[Gary Marshall]

Isn't Ilkley where Bonaparte's was?

For the uninitiated, Bonaparte's is where the first episode of Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares was filmed.

Now I'm not suggesting that I believe everything that I see on the TV, but Ilkley wasn't portrayed as a budding destination food town.

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that's because it wasn't ilkley!

lets put it this way, sell a nice place in kensington, you'd struggle to buy a similarly nice place in ilkley!

cheers

gary

[BertieWooster]

That's in Silsden, about five miles away and a completely different environment (think run down ex-mill town as opposed to very affluent suburb--the average house in Ilkley would buy you eight or ten houses in Silsden). Like comparing Shoreditch to Dalston.