Marlene's Kitchen Renovation

[Marlene]

It seems like everyone in the world is renovating their kitchens today. so why should I be the exception? Here's the deal. We've recently purchased a new house. The house has already been extensively renovated and it has a pretty decent kitchen to start with. There are a few things I want to do to it though, and I could use some advice.

First, here are the pics of the kitchen. I've had to do them in three shots, because the kitchen is huge.

In the first shot, you can see the microwave/oven combination in the wall, and there is a small cooktop over by the fridge. Underneath the micro/oven thing are two pot drawers.

Underneath the cooktop is a huge utensils drawer and two more pot drawers.

The second pic shows a table and chairs which we won't have because that island/breakfast bar is huge.

The third picture shows the built in bar fridge and wine fridge as well as the back area of the kitchen where a desk is.

Here's what I do. Even though this kitchen is particularly large, 25'3 x 17'9, I have less cupboard space than I do now. In addition, this kitchen was recently renovated, so I don't want to rip it up completely. Keep in mind as we go through this that the basement ceiling below is finished which will make any wiring we want to do more complicated.

1. I need to get a second oven in here somewhere.

2. I'd like to build some sort of worksurface/island where the table and chairs are now

3. I'd like to replace the small 30 inch cooktop with a gas cooktop, preferably 36 inches.

1. Here's my thought's and resrictions on the oven. I could put it in under the cooktop, but that means losing the two pot drawers and large utensil drawer. I'm less concerned about losing the pot drawers becauase I could build more into the island in the middle of the room. Losing the utensil drawer would be worse as it's a perfect place to grab wooden spoons, spatulas etc as one cooks.

I could remove the micro/oven combination and replace with a double wall oven, but then I need a place to build in the microwave. yes, I need the microwave built in, because I don't want it cluttering up my counterspace which will have enough stuff on it.

I could, if I could get power to the new island put the new oven there, but I'd rather keep the second oven as close to the work triangle as I can.

2. The worksurface in the middle could either be butcher block on top, or more of the granite that already exists in the kitchen if I can find it. Ideally, if there's room, I'd have the top overhand on one side so extra people could hang out there. I'd like to have power at the island, but that may not be possible given the status of the basement ceiling. In the island I'd like to have , a place for cookbooks, pot drawers, and anything else I haven't thought of yet, but I will. Probably more drawer space since drawers are at a premium in this kitchen.

3. I'm pretty sure that gas is available right outside the kitchen as they currently have a gas connected bbq on the deck. So bringing gas in shouldn't be a problem. What do I lose in cupboard space underneath by bringing in a gas line? In addtion, I'd have to find a way to make the granite bigger to hold a bigger cooktop and of course, I'm going to lose the utensil drawer and possibly at least one pot drawer since gas cooktops are deeper than electric cooktops.

So there you have it. I'll try to get a floorplan posted in a few days, but in the meantime, I figured I'd give you experts a few days to ponder this.

[snowangel]

Some immediate thoughts, Marlene.

Putting gas at the cooktop. Gas doesn't take up a lot of space, but given that you have drawers, that could be a problem unless you want to run it up through the wall to the cooktop.

Island without power? No way. Bad idea. It means you can't do anything there that will require an electrical appliance. If you are going to do the island up right, you will need to tear into that basement ceiling. (I am a big believer of suspended ceilings in basements. Makes it easy to get to electrical, plumbing, wire speakers into other areas of the house, etc. but that's beside the point right now).

Your kitchen is huge. My kitchen. I have four double door cuboards/cabinets and six drawers. I am not counting the drawer and cabinet that are almost too narrow for anything. But, I have gas!

[winesonoma]

That's bigger than my house!

[Marlene]

To make up for it, the rest of the house is rather small What they did was knock out the wall between the kitchen and dining room to make it one big room. Great for space, but it's a bit odd shaped.

[Jake]

I'm moving in!! The space is huge and I'm sure you'll enjoy many get togethers there. I second the comment that you'll regret it if you do not have power in the island/workspace you wish to add.

[frdagaa]

It's a little hard to tell the floorplan from the pics, but from what I can see, an island where the table and chairs currently are will be way too far away from the action. The area that is taken up by the counter seating, though, looks ripe for the picking. I'd consider changing that area, even if it means installing a peninsula rather than an island. You'd lose some seating, but you're going to anyway.

[Kim WB]

It's a little hard to tell the floorplan from the pics, but from what I can see, an island where the table and chairs currently are will be way too far away from the action.  The area that is taken up by the counter seating, though, looks ripe for the picking.  I'd consider changing that area, even if it means installing a peninsula rather than an island.  You'd lose some seating, but you're going to anyway.

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This was my thought as well...also, you can get the islands with the deep microwave shelves at the endcap, so if you get electricity to it, one problem is solved. ( It's an option in prefab islands, instead of those useless wine fridge things...you're kitchen looks new enough to contact the cabinet manufactureer and get their island with matching trim ...no need to custom do anything)

Talk to a electrician, one who does new construction as well as renos...there are many options to get electricity to your island, without destroying your basement ceiling. Also, will the cooktop be the only gas in the house, and have you considered propane? ( that seems to be a regional alternative)

And,BTW. congrats on the new house, and lucky for you there are just minor changes..it looks lieka really really pretty kitchen..you just have to hope that it was designed by a cook, not a magazine editor! First test: does it have a skinny cabinet for sheet pans and trays?

[Marlene]

I'n some ways this kitchen was designed for show, not work. However, the appliances are pretty much top of the line. The oven, cooktop and dishwasher are all Miele, the fridge is a Frigidare, and the microwave is a Panasonic. But the beauty in that kitchen is that Hood. It's a Faber and it is awesome.

I'd rather not destroy the breakfast bar part, I really quite like it.

The house is heated by natural gas and the dryer runs off natural gas. I live in fear of propane for some reason. Our RV runs everything off propane and I'm somewhat convinced it will blow up one day. We've owned a BBQ ever since I can remember, and this summer was the first time I ever ventured to turn it on and light it myself.

There are no skinny cupboards for sheet pans etc, but the ones above the Fridge, and the microwave oven combo are quite deep. I'll be putting dividers into these cupboards to hold my sheet pans and serving trays and cooling racks. There is another "pantry" over by the desk with narrow shelves, that I could use for sheet racks as well.

I could, if pressed, put a small microwave on the counter under the cabinet that you sticking out in the first picture. I was going to put the phone there, but it could go on the desk. Then I could make the oven/micro and double wall oven instead.

As far as the island goes, it's meant to be a secondary prep area, when more than one person is working in the kitchen. It's really meant to give me some extra drawer and cupboard space I could, put it closer to the windows, and probably would then be able to bring the power in from outside.

[marie-louise]

Kitchen preferences are so personal. I'd do very different things to your kitchen!

I know from your Entertaining Season Has Begun thread that you do lots of entertaining-so I suspect that there are circumstances when you need a second oven. But are you sure you need a 36-inch cooktop? How often do you really use six burners at once? You'd have to redo some of the cabinets to get a bigger hood-that seems like a big expense unless you really, really need six burners.

I love that table-especially one each of four colors of chairs. That's my favorite thing about your kitchen!!! No way I'd get rid of it. I'd take away those chairs at the breakfast bar-maybe replace them with a backless stool or two that slipped all the way under the counter for the occasional observer to perch-but make that into more of a primary workspace. Perhaps replace part of the counter [somewhere] w/ butcher block. I'd fill in the pedestals w/ cabinets and/or or your oven. That's a HUGE amount of wasted space under there. I'd put a second sink there and make that a cool round work space. But again, it's so personal. Obviously you prefer sitting on high stools rather than the table. Have both in there seems weird, so I can see why you want to take one of them out.

If you kept the round table in there, is there room for something under the windows? Since the windows are low, perhaps some window seats that would get you more storage while giving your friends more places to hang out in the kitchen. Window seats are great for party houses.

Because I'd be leaving the chairs, I'd fill your room with items in those four colors. I'd cover the window seats w/ a colorful print. Then I'd get a red Kitchen Aid and one of thsoe Francis Francis espresso machines... And finally, because I'd saved so much money by not getting a bigger stove , I'd order a bunch of platters and large bowls from Luna Garcia in those colors.

[Marlene]

There are others here who will tell you I don't mix colours well. Those aren't my chairs. Normally, it's just the three of us eating in the kitchen. Any more than that and we move to the dining room, so I really don't need a table and chairs in there.

It's hard to tell from the pictures, but that's a huge hood. I don't have the dimensions in front of me, but it can easily accomodate a 36 in cooktop.

Now I'm thinking the hell with the utensil drawer and pot drawers, I'll just get a slide in range.

like this

There are a number of cupboards under that pedestal actually. But these ideas are great, thanks!

[marie-louise]

Those aren't my chairs.  Normally, it's just the three of us eating in the kitchen.  Any more than that and we move to the dining room, so I really don't need a table and chairs in there. 

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Too bad-those are cool chairs! I do like the red in there...

I didn't realize you had a dining room, too. Then it makes sense to ditch the table.

The range seems like a good idea. Since you already have an electric oven, maybe get all gas? Gas ovens have those nice ceramic broilers (the real name escapes me at the moment) and gas ovens heat faster, plus the heat is moister-good for roasting meat, I think. Plus they are usually cheaper. Viking makes a self-cleaning gas oven.

There's still that big empty space in the middle of your kitchen if you take away the table. How about a couple of overstuffed chairs or a sofa and a coffee table in there?

[snowangel]

Now I'm thinking the hell with the utensil drawer and pot drawers, I'll just get a slide in range.

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Marlene, this is a great idea. One of the things that I noticed in your photos is that the wall oven doesn't look like it's very conveniently located.

And, don't forget that if there's an appropriate space in the basement, you can store that "used once or twice" a year stuff down there.

[Marlene]

There's next to no storage in the house, which is resulting in us purging any number of items from our curent house, including furniture As it is, my office will be located downstairs, and will also house the extra fridge and freezer.

Slide in range. I'm liking this idea more and more.

[Dave the Cook]

I'm working on a floorplan for this space, but the shape is tricky, and Marlene and I will probably have to go through a few rounds to get it right. Once we have that, I think some things will be a lot clearer.

I'm with the group that says you really need power in the island. I suppose there's nothing to be lost by putting in the island and seeing how it works -- you can always add electricity later, and it probably won't cost you any more. But I bet this is one of those things that's going to bug you over and over until you take care of it.

We should get some terminology straight, because it will make a difference in your budget: that KA (which is beautiful, by the way, though I can't for the life of me figure out why it's so expensive) is a stand-alone range, not a slide-in. This is important because in addition to losing your drawers, your countertop will need some work in order to accomodate it.

[Marlene]

I'm with the group that says you really need power in the island. I suppose there's nothing to be lost by putting in the island and seeing how it works -- you can always add electricity later, and it probably won't cost you any more. But I bet this is one of those things that's going to bug you over and over until you take care of it.

We should get some terminology straight, because it will make a difference in your budget: that KA (which is beautiful, by the way, though I can't for the life of me figure out why it's so expensive) is a stand-alone range, not a slide-in. This is important because in addition to losing your drawers, your countertop will need some work in order to accomodate it.

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I know I need power in the island, I just didn't really want to contemplate it but I will.

I didn't notice that it was a free standing range, which rules it up. I'll want a lside in, which may also require modification to my countertop.

sigh.

[Dave the Cook]

I don't think anyone makes a 36" slide-in range. I checked (real quick) KA, DCS and Thermador. Since the counter needs to support the range to some extent, I imagine anything bigger than 30" is too heavy. What you can do, however, is replace the cooktop and put an oven in the cabinet beneath it.

[Marlene]

Hey, you were the one who told me to get a range!

[Dave the Cook]

How was I to know you had this slide-in range fetish?

[Marlene]

Well you didn't tell me I'd have to redo my counters to get a free standing one either.

If I rip out the cooktop to put a gas one in, I need to expand the counter cut out anyway. If I put the oven underneath, I need to rip out the drawers. So what else do I have to do to accomodate that free standing one?

[Dave the Cook]

You'll have to finish the newly-exposed sides of the cabinets adjacent to the cut-out. If you go the range route, you'll have to clear the entire area all the way to the wall, including cutting away the counter below the backsplash.

What are the counters made of?

[Marlene]

GRRRRRR. The counters are granite.

[Dave the Cook]

Well, you're going to have to do some heavy-duty cutting, either way -- if you insist on a larger cooking surface.

[winesonoma]

GRRRRRR.  The counters are granite.

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Easier to put in a new cook-top as the cuts in the granite are hidden. Cutting the granite is not a problem. Finishing in the field is. Get a really nice Gas cook-top and separate oven.

[andiesenji]

Since you are considering a center island, why not opt for a 36 inch range in the island. Even if you can't bring the electric and gas service up from underneath, you might be able to bring it down from overhead.

In my old house, the floors were concrete with terrazo tile and when we added an island to the kitchen we had a round stainless steel column that contained both electric and gas lines with plugs on 3 sides as well as a water line for a pot filler on the side facing the cooktop and for a small vegetable prep sink, all brought down from overhead. In addition we had a pot rack hung from the upper part of the column which was very handy.

The island itself was sort of egg shaped, broader at the end where the cooktop was and narrower at the end that held the sink (with a cutout next to the sink for scraps to drop through into a bin for composting). It was shaped this way because it made it easier to move around it. The top was 3 1/2 inch thick butcher block and one side had 3 pull-out platforms that were large enough to hold a place setting, glass, cup, etc., so we had a little extra seating.

It would have cost considerably more to cut through the tile and concrete and I doubt they would have been able to exactly match the tile color as it had been a special order.

[Marlene]

You'll have to finish the newly-exposed sides of the cabinets adjacent to the cut-out. If you go the range route, you'll have to clear the entire area all the way to the wall, including cutting away the counter below the backsplash.

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But won't I have to do that for a slide in model too?

GRRRRRR.  The counters are granite.

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Easier to put in a new cook-top as the cuts in the granite are hidden. Cutting the granite is not a problem. Finishing in the field is. Get a really nice Gas cook-top and separate oven.

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When you say finishing in the field, I assume you mean refinishing the edges of the granite where it's been cut to accomodate the slide in or free standing range?

Since you are considering a center island, why not opt for a 36 inch range in the island.  Even if you can't bring the electric and gas service up from underneath, you might be able to bring it down from overhead. 

In my old house, the floors were concrete with terrazo tile and when we added an island to the kitchen we had a round stainless steel column that contained both electric and gas lines with plugs on 3 sides as well as a water line for a pot filler on the side facing the cooktop and for a small vegetable prep sink, all brought down from overhead.  In addition we had a pot rack hung from the upper part of the column which was very handy. 

The island itself was sort of egg shaped, broader at the end where the cooktop was and narrower at the end that held the sink (with a cutout next to the sink for scraps to drop through into a bin for composting).  It was shaped this way because it made it easier to move around it.  The top was 3 1/2 inch thick butcher block and one side had 3 pull-out platforms that were large enough to hold a place setting, glass, cup, etc., so we had a little extra seating.  

It would have cost considerably more to cut through the tile and concrete and I doubt they would have been able to exactly match the tile color as it had been a special order.

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While I like this idea, I'm not keen on having my range in the middle of the room. That would mean putting another hood in and I think that's more renovation than I want to do with this. In addition, the range would become my primary cooking area, and if it's in the island, it's too far away from my work triangle. Snowangel is correct in that the wall oven is a bit inconveniently placed. In addition, I'm left handed so my inclination is to turn to the left when taking something out of the oven and placing in on the counter. This would require me to turn almost full circle to place a hot dish from that oven onto the counter behind me.

So, I may not be able to get my beautiful 36 KA, although I'm still going to investigate what it would take to do that, but it appears that maybe a 30 in slide in range might work or as others say, a gas cooktop and oven.

If I get a range, I want a duel fuel range. I've never used a gas oven before, and I'd prefer the oven to be electric convection. But I want the cooktop to be gas. I made the mistake of going ceramic cooktop in the kitchen I have now, and while it's a pretty good cooktop, I have been kicking myself for not doing gas since the day we finished this reno.

Since KA doesn't seem to make a dual range 30 oven, these are possibilities:DCS

GE monogram

Maybe I'm missing a few others.