The impending disappearance of Southern Food

[robyn]

Agreed.  Cynical Chef brought up an interesting point earlier about Anson Mills that sent me scurrying out onto the internet to find out if they sell to the pubilc.  Part of the problem I believe, is that there are people who would like to keep up certain traditions, but there's a lack of good ingredients out there to do it OR - as is more often the case, they are out there, but they aren't readily available in our communities and we're not sure where to find them.

A good example would be small chickens.  I used to go the grocery store and the farmer's market with my Grandmother's cook Reba and learned everything I know about picking out quality meat and produce as a result.  (I will eventually elaborate on some of that in the other Foodway's forum (will insert here as soon as I find it - hang on). 

Reba always said not to use a chicken any bigger than 2.5 pounds for frying or it just wouldn't be tasty.  She was right in my opinion and it's why I rarely eat any kind of chicken anymore.  You sometimes can luck out and get a small organic chicken but it's still rare.

Produce is the same thing - at least in D.C., if you find fresh black eyed peas or butterbeans at the farmer's market, they are picked too late so they are big and not nearly as tasty or worth the effort. 

The good news is that the awareness of these issues is growing - you see a major turn towards organic gardening, organic produce and getting back to the pure, simple and unadulterated.  I find this encouraging - in the meantime, just need good sources for the ingredients I crave - MayhawMan?  Any luck on setting up a board for that purpose???? 

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You can get anything you want on the internet - assuming you're willing to spend the money. I order cheese on the internet - chocolates - lamb - when I'm in the mood for a big deal. What I am not willing to do is spend a couple of hours making grits (which I make all the time) on a regular basis.

IMO - the simple, pure and unadulterated is a bunch of hooey if you're trying to do something like grow tomatoes in Florida. Without pesticides - you're simply raising food for the bugs. And I've read several articles which discuss how this year's hurricanes have scattered a lot of local crop infestations far and wide. We in this country spend a fairly small percentage of our disposable incomes for food because our farming techniques are very advanced in terms of technology. I doubt most people are willing to spend double or triple for their everyday eating to get so-called artisan food on a regular basis.

There's a bigger problem with industry groups. We have a product grown here called "ugly tomatoes". They're really tastey. There's a huge fight going on about exporting them to other states because they are - well - ugly. They don't meet the esthetic standards for export tomatoes. The tomato board isn't protecting consumers - it's protecting the established tomato interests.

BTW - we get fresh black eyed peas here on a seasonal basis. They're a local product - and the season isn't very long. Robyn

[Jaymes]

The subect matter here once again, is dissappearing Southern Food. Let's stick to that. That subject alone really should be plenty to talk about all by itself.

Thank you, Mayhaw Man, for this ...

Agreed.

A good example would be small chickens. I used to go the grocery store and the farmer's market with my Grandmother's cook Reba and learned everything I know about picking out quality meat and produce as a result. Reba always said not to use a chicken any bigger than 2.5 pounds for frying or it just wouldn't be tasty. She was right in my opinion and it's why I rarely eat any kind of chicken anymore. You sometimes can luck out and get a small organic chicken but it's still rare.

The good news is that the awareness of these issues is growing - you see a major turn towards organic gardening, organic produce and getting back to the pure, simple and unadulterated.

I too agree, Mayhaw....thanks.

And, cucina...several things.

First of all, I didn't know that small chickens were more flavorful. Is that just for frying or for everything? In Austin they have several brands of wonderful natural chickens....there's Buddy's, and another one that I can't think of right now. But I always tried to get nice big fat ones. Wrong?

And I also think you're right on the money when you say that awareness of these issues is growing. Here in Springfield, MO, where I am currently (and temporarily) living, there is a wonderful all-organic farmer's market. You have to be the farmer -- no secondary retailers are permitted -- and the city of Springfield inspects all of the farms that have stands. Everything is fresh, and I can get good peas and beans and all the rest.

There is also a large Amish colony here, and they do a very lively business at the farmer's market. I was chatting with one of them and they said that just a few years ago, when they began, their business was small, and they had a lot of unsold spoilage; but now, they often sell out.

Sometimes you do have to have something you care for threatened before you do something about it. Like the SFA. Bravo.

Edited November 15, 2004 by Jaymes (log)

[Cucina]

And, cucina...several things.

First of all, I didn't know that small chickens were more flavorful.  Is that just for frying or for everything?................Sometimes you do have to have something you care for threatened before you do something about it.  Like the SFA.  Bravo.

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Jaymes, in my experience they are better for everything....Eunny describes it well in How to Carve Chickens. (I had to ask how to carve a chicken because I kept not coming out without a wishbone which was very troubling!)

Same is often true with vegetables although there's nothing like a big fat home grown tomato where one slice can cover your whole face of a sandwich!

And I agree with you about SFA. Mayhaw man, could you please post a link on how to join? I'll sign up and give memberships to family members as stocking stuffers. They'll be a big hit. thanks.

[Jaymes]

Same is often true with vegetables although there's nothing like a big fat home grown tomato where one slice can cover your whole face of a sandwich!

Well, I do know that smaller vegetables are generally more tasty. And in the south, with all of the wonderful farmer's markets, and in my own gardens, I do prefer the smaller squash, beans, peas, etc. But for some reason, never made the leap to chickens.

And I also know, from living in Alaska, that it holds true for fish as well. The larger halibut, for example, are far inferior to the smaller ones.

Chickens, too, eh? Makes sense. Boy, you learn something new on eG every day.

Edited November 15, 2004 by Jaymes (log)

[Gifted Gourmet]

could you please post a link on how to join? 

Southern Foodways membership information

[Cucina]

could you please post a link on how to join? 

Southern Foodways membership information

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Many thanks Melissa! I agree with Jaymes. I learn something new and useful every day.

Back to topic - what's the one very southern thing folks remember eating as a child/young adult that they just can't find anymore or don't know how to make? Mine would be my grandmother's recipie for Divinity - I have the recipie but it turns out too soft.

[Jaymes]

Oh man, excellent question.

One thing I think has bitten the dust is the original Durkee's sauce. I don't know. Maybe it's just me. But I remember so many recipes that called for a "dollop of Durkee's." That's all you had to say. Never mind that Durkee's company made lots of stuff, when you said, "Durkee's" it meant their famous sauce.

I know it's still available, and maybe I'm just imagining it, but it tastes different to me than it did as a kid.

[Mayhaw Man]

Divinity is tough, especially here. I only attempt it in the Winter when the humidity is really low (for here that would be sub 40%). I am not good at it, but my Mom can do it and so can one of my brothers. I am the family champ on Pralines though. I can knock out a triple batch in 45 minutes from start to cleanup.

One thing you don't see much anymore, that used to be really common at Church events and stuff, is Hummingbird Cake. I love that stuff and make it everyonce in a while, but I don't even know that many people who know what it is.

I forgot about Durkees. I used to love dipping sliced ham into that stuff. Kind of thick and sticky, but with a nice spicy bite.

[Jaymes]

I am the family champ on Pralines though. I can knock out a triple batch in 45 minutes from start to cleanup.

Hey, how about a Praline taste-off at the next Pig Pickin'? I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours.

[Cucina]

I agree with Jaymes - Durkees just doesn't seem to have the same bite it used to - but it's still the only thing I know to use in deviled eggs.

I forgot all about Hummingbird Cake? Doesn't it have poppy seeds in it?

[Mayhaw Man]

I am the family champ on Pralines though. I can knock out a triple batch in 45 minutes from start to cleanup.

Hey, how about a Praline taste-off at the next Pig Pickin'? I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours.

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I'm in. I'll even make them there. Have you ever taken pralines in the soft ball stage and put them over good vanilla ice cream? Oh boy! Talk about your instant REALLY magic shell. It's a pretty awesome thing to do.

[Gifted Gourmet]

One thing you don't see much anymore, that used to be really common at Church events and stuff, is Hummingbird Cake. I love that stuff and make it everyonce in a while, but I don't even know that many people who know what it is.

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An old favorite from the South:Hummingbird Cake

Not unlike a carrot cake really ... or even a banana bread ... moist and dark ...

and, no, there are never poppy seeds in this recipe ...

[lovebenton0]

I don't think there's any particular orthodoxy about the lack of sugar in cornbread (except perhaps in the minds of some people).  Bill Neal's Southern Cooking has recipes for buttermilk corn bread and spoon bread (another form of cornbread) that both call for sugar (although his dog bread - the most simple form of cornbread - does not).  Times change - people change - and recipes change.  The best cornbread I've eaten in years comes from the mix sold at Williams Sonoma.

Cast iron skillets don't work well in coastal Florida.  Unless they've been seasoned to the point where they can do double-duty as ant traps - they rust.  People in Florida 75 years ago were used to sharing their most intimate spaces with most of the insect world.  No reason to do that now - and no reason you can't use more suitable cookware as long as the result is satisfactory. 

Robyn

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Robyn, I do believe that Cucina's reference to the cornbread was for cornbread baked for stuffing. There are many different takes on cornbread for just good eating meal bread throughout the South. I don't put much leavening, or any sugar in mine when baked for stuffing either. Different use of basic food.

Cucina, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Cast iron skillets, once again, a preference for many of us but not essential where practicality prohibits the use. I mean if I were at my friends house and he or she didn't have a cast iron skillet I could still bake some mean cornbread. Southern cooking, as in other regions, was based a lot on what was available at certain times of the year, economy, and geograhic locations. Southern cooks can be flexible -- not everyone uses the same recipe -- without losing the essence of Southern cooking when we still produce honest food.

Thanks for the family secret cornbread stuffing recipe, Cucina. Sounds like a nice little change to dressing this year.

Edit to add: I obviously missed at least a whole page before I posted.

And, in answer to what isn't around now: Where are the fried chicken gizzards these days? I can hardly ever find chicken gizzards at the store to do them. I do prefer the livers most of time anyway (one of the very few things I ever fry), but every once in a while I just want the gizzards. (Talk about food based in poverty! ) With cream gravy and biscuits, mess of greens, corn on the cob, and sliced tomatoes.

Edited November 15, 2004 by lovebenton0 (log)

[robyn]

First of all, I didn't know that small chickens were more flavorful.  Is that just for frying or for everything?  In Austin they have several brands of wonderful natural chickens....there's Buddy's, and another one that I can't think of right now.  But I always tried to get nice big fat ones.  Wrong?

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They aren't.

The larger a chicken is - the more flavorful it is. But the larger chickens aren't as tender. You should pick a chicken on the basis of what you plan to do with it. You wouldn't pick the same chicken for BBQ that you would for stew. I think the hardest kind of chicken to find these days is a real stewing chicken.

Of course - there are other things that enter in a chicken's flavor that have nothing to do with size. Robyn

[Jaymes]

I am the family champ on Pralines though. I can knock out a triple batch in 45 minutes from start to cleanup.

Hey, how about a Praline taste-off at the next Pig Pickin'? I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours.

I'm in. I'll even make them there. Have you ever taken pralines in the soft ball stage and put them over good vanilla ice cream? Oh boy! Talk about your instant REALLY magic shell. It's a pretty awesome thing to do.

Nope. Never thought of that.

But once, years ago, when I was living in the Panama CZ, my neighbor and close friend had house guests coming. I had been raised in the southern tradition, which involves taking something to friends that had houseguests, in order to help them entertain them. I planned to take pralines to her, but the damn things just would not set up. I could tell it in the pan. They weren't even close.

So I got a pretty jar and poured the stuff into it and wrapped a ribbon around, and labeled it "Praline Sauce" with instructions to pour it over pound cake, or ice cream, or whatever.

Of course they absolutely loved it and wanted the recipe.

I didn't fess up until after about ten years of my friend badgering me for the recipe.

Edited November 15, 2004 by Jaymes (log)

[Lan4Dawg]

great thread & unfortunately it is too true that people are abandoning "home cooking" for the restaurants and eating "restaurant food" at home. I almost blanched a few years ago when I attended a church social and noticed that the church had purchased fried chicken fr/ a restaurant and the members were instructed to bring vegetables & desserts to accompany it. To make matters worse too many of those vegetables/desserts were in a container marked w/ a chain logo. And this was at a church where I had fond memories of the great cooks and the great food that always made it to these functions.

Too often convenience becomes a factor. How often do we see women (not being sexist just realistic) of the previous generation who were so tired of making biscuits that the canned or, now, frozen product became the standard? I remember my grand mother bringing frozen rolls to the table and saying how glad she was that they were available b/c she hated making them by scratch. She would never buy a jar of jam or jelly as that was always "home made" & fr/ local orchards when available and except for the occasional frozen vegetable in the dead of winter just about every thing was as fresh as possible but she despised making bread so we had frozen rolls at Sunday dinner. That trend continued as none of her children or grandchildren make bread.

After a while we convince our selves--or are convinced by the advertisers--that the store bought product is "just as good as" or "even better than" home made until the store bought is the "norm" and home made is the exception. After a while no one wants real Southern food any more. Instead they want the glop that is served by the chains or bought fr/ stores b/c that is what they remember as "home cooking" and would not know true "home cooking" if it snuck on to their plates.

in loving memory of Mr. Squirt (1998-2004)--the best cat ever

[Jaymes]

I almost blanched a few years ago when I attended a church social and noticed that the church had purchased fried chicken fr/ a restaurant and the members were instructed to bring vegetables & desserts to accompany it.  To make matters worse too many of those vegetables/desserts were in a container marked w/ a chain logo.  And this was at a church where I had fond memories of the great cooks and the great food that always made it to these functions.

Yep. And I had thought that these church ladies, and the church 'covered dish suppers' might be the last bastion of great southern cooking.

Sorry to hear that in your case anyway, even that is now being threatened.

[Cucina]

There are many different takes on cornbread for just good eating meal bread throughout the South.

Cucina, please correct me if I'm wrong. 

Thanks for the family secret cornbread stuffing recipe, Cucina. Sounds like a nice little change to dressing this year. 

Edit to add: I obviously missed at least a whole page before I posted.

Where are the fried chicken gizzards these days?

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Lovebenton0 - enjoyed your post. For whatever reason, I've never cared for sweet cornbread even outside of holidays. It's one of those things I like the same way every time - dense, rich and shaped like cornsticks, crispy brown from a cast iron cornstick pan. That said, I did vary the recipie from the family version to use buttermilk rather than whole milk - it just tastes better and richer to me. There are a few other variations I like as well - jalepeno and jack cheese corn fritters and cornbread made with real corn and vidalia onions in it. Yum. There's no right or wrong way to make cornbread or dressing but we all have our preferences!

You're welcome on the dressing recipie! This is one thing I will never fiddle with (at least on holidays). It's in the category of comfort food. It brings back memories. And I know that if I show up for Thansgiving, Christmas or Easter Dinner at any of my relatives on my mother's side, I can count on getting it just the way i like it!

Chicken gizzards? Maybe they ran away with the dish and the spoon?

[Cucina]

So I got a pretty jar and poured the stuff into it and wrapped a ribbon around, and labeled it "Praline Sauce" with instructions to pour it over pound cake, or ice cream, or whatever.

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Hmmmm.....Yum. Jaymes & Mayhaw Man, I feel a sweet tooth ache coming on which brings up the subject of what southern sweets are part of your holiday tradition? This year, if I can work up the energy, I'm going to try to go whole hog and do the best from my Dad and Mom's side. ie. on my Dad's side, his mother made exceptional candy - fudge, caramel (sort of like denser prailines), divinity, date loaf, and candied grapefruit rind - on my mother's side, the old fashioned thinly rolled out tea cookies with a hint of fresh nutmeg cut in festive shapes: and then cherriettes which consist of equal parts butter and crisco, flour, powdered sugar, vanilla and lemon extract, pecans and a half a candied cherry in the middle. This of course is quite an effort, but it would be very much appreciated so it's worth it.

Folks - what sweets will be in your tins this holiday season????

Edited because despite Jaymes' best tips, I can't seem to get the quoting to appear right on the first try. Cripe! And edited again because it didn't work on the second try either!

Edited November 15, 2004 by Cucina (log)

[Busboy]

I almost blanched a few years ago when I attended a church social and noticed that the church had purchased fried chicken fr/ a restaurant and the members were instructed to bring vegetables & desserts to accompany it.  To make matters worse too many of those vegetables/desserts were in a container marked w/ a chain logo.  And this was at a church where I had fond memories of the great cooks and the great food that always made it to these functions.

Yep. And I had thought that these church ladies, and the church 'covered dish suppers' might be the last bastion of great southern cooking.

Sorry to hear that in your case anyway, even that is now being threatened.

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A few years back I worked on Jesse Jackson's presidential campaign, which relied heavily on the black church network for local support and sites for campaign events. Those church ladies dang near killed Jesse with the banquets they laid out after every stop, and he (and senior staff, not me) would have died happy. It seemed like every day there was another lesson on southern/soul food cooking and none of those church ladies would have dared to bring something store-bought.

It would be ironic if y'all had to head up to Philly or New York City to get good chicken, corn bread and greens, but if you can't find anything closer, maybe you should consider a trip.