What's so good about the Southeast?

[gwilson]

After Gifted Gourmet became a forum host, we've been talking about the Southeast as a culinary region. We both agree that the southeast has a lot to offer culinarily speaking - even on a par with California and NYC in some areas. She wanted to spark an interest in the Southeast in people who don't live here. And I suggested that we put it to the 'regulars' here to help us. The point of this is to start some dialogue that will hopefully morph into more threads about more specific topics. And now I'm finally getting around to starting the post.

this is copied from one of my pm's to GG:

I think a detailed definition of 'significant region' would produce quite a few ideas for other questions and discussions.

I believe that no one region has better offerings than another - but each one does have a different perception. But if you really want to compare the regions, you could do it on different criteria. We're speaking culinarily in general of course, but that could take the form of restaurants and chefs, food-stuffs and providers (farms, etc.), opportunities for learning (schools, the foodie 'scene' so to speak), and probably other things of which I'm not thinking.

The Southeast does offer all of these, but it may be helpful to actually make a casual listing. Not so much in comparison to other regions, but more of an inventory of sorts of what the Southeast has to offer.

So what is your opinion? What about the Southeast makes it 'significant'? And as some motifs form in this thread, we'll start new ones about more specific things.

-Greg

P.S. I also want a little feedback/critique on this particular post. I meant to be fairly general to spark a lot of ideas. But if this too vague - too broad? Let me know, and thanks in advance for all the input.

[Suzanne F]

Forgive me if you don't want my opinions (since I am in NYC and have never lived in the Southeast). But here is my list:

• grits
  
• okra
  
• a vegetable-based kitchen that uses meat as a condiment or flavoring agent
  
• more varieties of barbecue than in any other region
  
• fried green tomatoes
  
• sugarless (or at least nonsweet) cornbread
  
• frying anything, to make it taste better and have a contrast in textures between the outside and the inside
  
• summer kitchens usable year-round (try THAT in the Northeast or Midwest)
  
• a coastline that yields creatures not found elsewhere
  
• and although it is not important to me, a sweet tooth that rivals the British and South Asian
  

To put it another way: a great variety of top-notch ingredients, treated in ways not applied elsewhere.

[Gifted Gourmet]

Forgive me if you don't want my opinions (since I am in NYC and have never lived in the Southeast).

and although it is not important to me, a sweet tooth that rivals the British and South Asian

To put it another way: a great variety of top-notch ingredients, treated in ways not applied elsewhere.

Of course we most definitely want your opinions, Suzanne, and one need not live in the Southeast to appreciate its successes culinarily! You have indeed focussed in on some of our better traditions ..

and your comments on some of the foods are wonderfully revealing: i.e. the sweetest desserts are to be found in the south! Actually, this raises a point wherein we might begin to think about the traditions of desserts here ...

Timothy C. Davis, of eg and Charlotte Creative Loafing, did an entire piece and collected opinions on classic southern cakes a few months ago ...

So the question is: why are the desserts so incredibly sweet here?

Your opinions? One need not reside here to present an opinion!

[FL Heat]

Don't forget the wonderful Cuban & Caribbean-influenced food scene in much of Florida, as well as the laid-back lifestyle that's epitomized in the Keys and on some of the islands off the coasts of Georgia, SC, and NC.

I know, it's weird to think of Miami and Memphis as being in the same part of the country.

I'd also have to say that a great many of the family traditions & recipes in the Southeast revolve around making the best of a bad situation. Vinegar pie, anyone? (We call it "chess pie") I'm trying to put into words the importance so many of the recipes in my family place on using what's available. "Greens", for example. . .beet tops, collard greens, spinach. "Beans"--shelly beans, pinto beans, red beans. As well as the familiarity with growing things that was prevalent until rabid urbanization (arguably, until my generation--I'm 30).

Didn't get much sleep last night (yay hot wings!), so I'm not sure if I'm making sense. And I certainly don't mean to imply that these traditions aren't visible in other parts of the country.

Diana

[Holly Moore]

Of the regional cuisines, Southern is the purest American cuisine. There is a degree of African and Caribbean heritage in some aspects, but Southern cooking best represents the life and heritage of its populace and best takes advantage of the region's bounty.

[Suzanne F]

Reference to another Timothy C. Davis opus: Black Magic, in Gastronomica. I guess Co-Cola as a breakfast is not as prevalent as we (elsewhere) have been led to believe.

BTW: Gastronomica is pretty slow about getting their TOC up online; guess you'll have to go find a copy.

[joiei]

I agree with Holly. To think that the cuisine of the south developed from a blending of cultures and so successfully adapting what was available is a wonder.

In certain places there are pockets with single country influence, i.e. German in Texas hill country, but as a whole, there is an amazing similarity of dishes across the entire south. Field peas are field peas in upper Tennessee as they are in Dothan, Alabama. And some of the old Miami natives ate very similar to folks in Memphis until probably the 60's. And lets not forget that Tea (as in Iced, not necessarily sweet) is the national drink of the south. It is the only part of the country where you can get it year round that I know of.

But to understand how people moved across the south is to understand how its cuisine developed. My families all came into the United States prior to the Revolutionary war. In Virginia and Charleston. My fathers family migrated south first to Georgia then to Mississippi and then to Texas. My mothers family came in To south carolina then migrated to Georgia then to the Alabama Coast (Baldwin County) then the rowdy ones (thats us) were sent off to Florida.

As an area developed, it was settled by a variety of peoples, thus the blending that has created was we know as the South today.

How many other regions of the United States so completely celebrate their heritage in food and culture? How many also embrace such a variety of cultures as their own and as one. In New Orleans, the creole Italians also celebrate Cajun, in Florida, the Jewish community also celebrates Cuban and Haitian, and in South Carolina you can find the Gullah.

[Gifted Gourmet]

Of the regional cuisines, Southern is the purest American cuisine.  There is a degree of African and Caribbean heritage in some aspects, but Southern cooking best represents the life and heritage of its populace and best takes advantage of the region's bounty.

How nicely you have summed up the very essence of what the distinctive Southern culinary tradition is built upon, Holly! With your background and expertise in this type of food, I can understand the nuances behind your thinking. I always thought that if meat-and-three is what the South does best, then that is the goal one should aim for, rather than making up some fancy faux Southern food and proclaiming it uniquely nouvelle Southern. Pride in one's heritage is not such a bad thing really!

[fierydrunk]

  As well as the familiarity with growing things that was prevalent until rabid urbanization (arguably, until my generation--I'm 30).

D

This is something I had not heard mentioned before and it is so true! I am 36 and spent many a night in the 70's with my granny shelling peas, snapping green beans--all fresh out of some huge paper bag from our garden in Midtown Memphis--produce *never* came from a plastic bag from the grocery store. The yard was full of flowers and flowering tress of which I knew every name...thanks to Granny. This floral knowledge is slipping from my old brain...so thank god she made me help her in the kitchen from the time I was 5 so delish cheese grits, biscuits, gravy,black eyed peas and collards are burned into my brian!

[Painting]

the SE produced Chik-fil-a. that's what so good about it.

[Milt]

We moved to Georgia from New Mexico twenty-two years ago. What quickly became evident to us was how much more emphasis was placed on vegetables. This area does vegetables better, with more variety of recipes as well as vegetables themselves, than anywhere else, to my knowledge. Barbecue pork, grits and sweet tea seem to be what stands out most to others, but there is much more to the south than just those three stereotypical dishes.

[LoveToEatATL]

So the question is: why are the desserts so incredibly sweet here?

Because we are so incredibly sweet, Melissa!

The south is known for its hospitality and its genteel nature. We are all about abundance and making guests feel like family. Sure, the food is delicious, but what makes it that much more so, is the spirit of comfort we like to instill in those we choose to entertain.

Although that could also be applied to Italy!

[Gifted Gourmet]

Thank you for your input, Patti and/or Eric! You have an exceptionally enticing website which I am more than certain I will explore in greater detail momentarily!

[robyn]

So what is your opinion?  What about the Southeast makes it 'significant'?  And as some motifs form in this thread, we'll start new ones about more specific things.

-Greg

P.S. I also want a little feedback/critique on this particular post.  I meant to be fairly general to spark a lot of ideas.  But if this too vague - too broad?  Let me know, and thanks in advance for all the input.

←

I've lived in the southeast (Florida) for over 30 years - and traveled extensively in other states in the southeast both on business and pleasure trips (I've also traveled extensively in other parts of the US). I think that talking about cooking in general in the "southeast" makes about as much sense as talking about cooking in general in Europe. Nuevo and old Latino food - Floribbean food - BBQ - low country cuisine (old fangled and new fangled) - well they have about as much in common as kidney pies and borscht. And I'm just talking about several cuisines in the deep south - while you're also talking about places like Tennesee and Virginia.

And I kind of shake my head when someone talks about something like Gullah traditions. How many people in the south are Gullah - a couple of thousand? And how many Cubans are there - a couple of million? For that matter - how many people who live in the south were born in the south? A lot less than 50% - and my guess is less than 25%. I think you're trying to enshrine something that simply isn't here in a dominant way. Life here is - if nothing else - dynamic. Robyn

[PopsicleToze]

Well, I live in New Orleans, and the food is incredible. I think it's the layering of flavors that makes it so wonderful, or just the great variety of ingredients, but if I couldn't live here, I would live in Savannah, GA over every other city in the U.S. I think they know what good food is about, and they have the history to back up their claim. A low-country boil is about equal to our shrimp boil, but ours is better.

[Gifted Gourmet]

Well, I live in New Orleans, and the food is incredible.  I think it's the layering of flavors that makes it so wonderful, or just the great variety of ingredients, but if I couldn't live here, I would live in Savannah, GA over every other city in the U.S.  I think they know what good food is about, and they have the history to back up their claim.  A low-country boil is about equal to our shrimp boil, but ours is better.

←

And I would, if I had the option, choose the foods of Charleston .. they have some fantastic 'takes' on southeastern regional cuisine that energize me and make my tastebuds sing with pleasure .. what an image that is!

I have been to New Orleans enough over the years to admit your food there is exceptional as well ... it is all part of the evolution of food over time in all of these cities and we are the fortunate recipients of years of learning about all of the variations in our regions on the originals....

[LoveToEatATL]

I live in Atlanta, was raised in Florida, but really adore the food in New Orleans.

They really know how to cook there! And make you feel special, too. Every single morsel I ate there blew me away.

But, Robyn, you are correct. The south is so full of influences that it is hard to just pick one. But the south does have a flavor all it's own - even with all those different influences.

For living in this country, Atlanta is just the place for me. I am crazy about this town and can't imagine living anywhere else. Even though I have lived in lots of different cities in our fair country.

Come on up and we'll go out to eat!

[FistFullaRoux]

The keys to all things southern seems to be tempo, tradition, and family. The sort of reverence for ingredients comes from the agricultural history, and the economic circumstances of the past. The southeast has been largely poor for most of American history, at least when it comes to money. But even the poorest could grow beans, or okra, or other vegetables. They may have been forced to prepare them simply, or use them to stretch a non-existant food budget, but they were prepared so they tasted good without having to add a lot to them.

Those of us sweating it out in Alabama or Louisiana in August aren't neccesarily willing to stand over a big ol hot pot in the heat of the day. So the noontime meals tend to be basic, highlightling an ingredient that is ready to use, almost as-is, immediately. Or we are more than willing to let someone else fix it, if economic circumstances allow. Preferably eaten at a table under a tree, or in the cab of a truck.

Supper (or Dinner, in some places) is a different story, as families tend to stick together longer. Again, it's the tempo. Especially in rural areas.

My .02 at least.

Edited September 12, 2004 by FistFullaRoux (log)

[Carrot Top]

The Southeast is a really mixed bag.

You do have the marvelous and dynamic big cities with so much to offer in many varieties of ways.

Then there is Florida which is a place unlike any other...it is just Florida...just as California is California. Florida has a distinctive personality because so many people have been drawn to it from other places.

And then there's the rest of the Southeast...as FistFullaRoux says, 'tempo, tradition, family'. A lot of this part of the country is rural, and there is very little money or industry in many places. Families have lived in the same towns for generations. Lots of people have grown up on small farms and have never moved away from the area they were born in. There are many rather isolated areas where people from other places would never move to, because there is no industry and no 'culture' of a higher sort...there is just the day and the night and nature and food and church and family.

Besides never meeting any 'city folk', the children that grow up here hardly ever meet anyone from a different ethnic background than their own (English/Irish/Scots) because of the isolation. This can change when they grow, for one of the options for 'work' is for them to enter the armed forces.

In a nutshell, it is a world that can resemble the world before such intensive communications and travel options were available for all of us.

It is quieter, slower, generally much more hospitable (forgive me, but I've never met a rude or unfriendly hillbilly...they have beautiful manners of an sort not seen often elsewhere) and life is based on what the world has offered up right there, that very day...not upon what can be dragged or kicked or forced out of it, nor on what can be bought on credit. Of course this includes food. There are no 'farmer's markets' because everyone grows their own.

It is a more private sort of world in these rural areas. They like the way things are and do not want to change it.

A very special part of the world.

In the small town I lived in for four years, I saw incredible support and generosity given to those in need...such as when a family's house burned down, or a husband and father died...the love that came from the community with real feeling and real support was...one of the finest things I've ever seen in my life.

These rural areas can be heartbreaking to an outsider who sees missing opportunities for the children, both in schooling and in 'high culture', but I am not so sure that it is the outsider...that has the right to speak, anymore. To each their own choices of lifes and joys and challenges.

Edited September 13, 2004 by Carrot Top (log)

[Gifted Gourmet]

Amen, Carrot Top, amen indeed!

[Dignan]

The Southeast is a really mixed bag.

You do have the marvelous and dynamic big cities with so much to offer in many varieties of ways.

Then there is Florida which is a place unlike any other...it is just Florida...just as California is California. Florida has a distinctive personality because so many people have been drawn to it from other places.

And then there's the rest of the Southeast...as FistFullaRoux says, 'tempo, tradition, family'. A lot of this part of the country is rural, and there is very little money or industry in many places. Families have lived in the same towns for generations. Lots of people have grown up on small farms and have never moved away from the area they were born in. There are many rather isolated areas where people from other places would never move to, because there is no industry and no 'culture' of a higher sort...there is just the day and the night and nature and food and church and family.

Besides never meeting any 'city folk', the children that grow up here hardly ever meet anyone from a different ethnic background than their own (English/Irish/Scots) because of the isolation. This can change when they grow, for one of the options for 'work' is for them to enter the armed forces.

In a nutshell, it is a world that can resemble the world before such intensive communications and travel options were available for all of us.

It is quieter, slower, generally much more hospitable (forgive me, but I've never met a rude or unfriendly hillbilly...they have beautiful manners of an sort not seen often elsewhere) and life is based on what the world has offered up right there, that very day...not upon what can be dragged or kicked or forced out of it, nor on what can be bought on credit. Of course this includes food. There are no 'farmer's markets' because everyone grows their own.

It is a more private sort of world in these rural areas. They like the way things are and do not want to change it.

A very special part of the world.

In the small town I lived in for four years, I saw incredible support and generosity given to those in need...such as when a family's house burned down, or a husband and father died...the love that came from the community with real feeling and real support was...one of the finest things I've ever seen in my life.

These rural areas can be heartbreaking to an outsider who sees missing opportunities for the children, both in schooling and in 'high culture', but I am not so sure that it is the outsider...that has the right to speak, anymore. To each their own choices of lifes and joys and challenges.

←

I agree with you to a great degree, Carrot Top, because you and some others (need to learn the new multiple post function!) have pointed out the true SE items. Family and tradition and local produce. This is not to say that other areas and cultures do not have the same things. But in the SE they can take a character different than they do in other areas, and that's neither a good or bad thing. Even if you want to break it up into bits of the SE, the same holds. Whether its a cajun crawdad burl, or a low country boil in Savannah, the tradition is the local items that are normally available in abundance and are something to be celebrated. Certainly in Nashville, you won't have the same items, but you will have the same theme and philosophy. I think that is what this thread is about.

You could surely do a thread about how different creole and cajun roux are, but they both are important to SE regional cuisines based on abundant local ingredients. There is a lively and vital cuisine in Florida and the SE originating in Cuba and the rest of the Carribean, but that doesn't mean that there is no longer an SE cuisine worthy of discussion because other influences have arrived in the geographic neighborhood. The fact that Florida has lots of people from other places doesn't mean that people in Florida didn't know what to do about food before those people arrived from somewhere else. I've chopped down a cabbage palm to get to the heart for eating. Did it once, I was about 8 years old and in the throes of "My Side of the Mountain" and probably will never do it again, but that counts I think because it was something my older family members were very familiar with, and they taught it to me. And its not that other areas don't have similar experiences, cause they do, but these should not be ignored.

I grew up in an relatively urban area of Florida, but had relatives in other areas and would spend a good deal of time each year, holidays and summers, in southern rural areas. We weeded gardens, shelled peas, shucked corn, caught trout and catfish, picked berrys, peaches, tomatos. Where I have to differ, Carrot Top, is that I think this a withering vine. Where I did all the above are now suburbs of Orlando and Atlanta. Cable TV alone put a big hole in the towns I used to enjoy. I sure hope there are holdouts, but they must be virtual Bastognes here and there. A town square versus walmart rant inserted here. I'm not declaring it an evil (why should our rural cousins pay more for an plunger than I do here?), but still lament the change that I saw happen.

[Carrot Top]

Yes, Dignan, I see what you are talking about...in many places.

But some particular areas do not make it easy at all for businesses to move in and prosper...the laws are written to make it difficult and the people in these particular areas keep on voting against any sort of change. They don't care for the idea of economic development.

The place I spoke of was in West Virginia. Lots of small towns like that in West Virginia. And I do have the belief that they will remain as they are for some time well into the future...

Edited September 13, 2004 by Carrot Top (log)

[FistFullaRoux]

Plus, we have hurricanes. And we take care of neighbors. The food may sometimes be basic sustenance, but we share it willingly, and accept good graces as they fall on us.

[Dignan]

Yes, Dignan, I see what you are talking about...in many places.

But some particular areas do not make it easy at all for businesses to move in and prosper...the laws are written to make it difficult and the people in these particular areas keep on voting against any sort of change. They don't care for the idea of economic development.

The place I spoke of was in West Virginia. Lots of small towns like that in West Virginia. And I do have the belief that they will remain as they are for some time well into the future...

←

And I hear that, they are the Bastognes to which I was refering. [insert here off topic rant that includes discussion of the intersection of the guvmint of these towns and the owners of the local biznesses when responding to a Walmart]. I shudder to think that the influences that impact local SE cuisine will be lost because of big business. But media will infiltrate, and I think that, before the cable/satellite era, the isolation of those areas perpetuated what we remember as important food traditions. Grandma's garden will be lost when Grandma is.... and I for sure hope it won't happen. But if there is a cuisine to be preserved, it has be preserved by folks like us, and its loss can't really be blamed on Target if we don't plant corn and tomatos, and talk to our progeny about it.

[FistFullaRoux]

I live in a metropolitan area of almost a million people. I work at a cutting edge medical facility that trains doctors from all over the world. And I still see the things I spoke of earlier in central Alabama, even on the sometimes mean streets of Birmingham.

Most of the fast-paced (and I am going waaaaay out on a limb here) recent history is probably due to an influx of people who just didn't like the cold in the northeast. It's the same way that the French language was taken away from the Cajuns when the oil people moved in.

I work in a high-tech dynamic environment. But I also enjoy a good smoked butt. Salt and pepper, and maybe a pinch or two of some other goodies, then 12 hours over a slow fire. There are ways of preparing it differently. But basic seasoning and a long, slow, steady cooking technique are what makes it what it is. Back to what I said about taking basic ingredients and preparing them inexpensively to get the best possible result from them.