Basic Questions

[Richie111]

Hello all. Thanks for your warm welcomes in my previous post.

First of all, I have to say that I am a little intimidated to post anything here for several reasons:

1) The posters here seem so knowledgable (chefs, restauranteurs, authors) that I would be afraid my post would be ignorant and dumb.

2) There is so much information on this forum that if I had a question I'm sure it was already answered in another post. However because of the amount of information here it is daunting to search through all of it for an answer to a specific question. (And for some reason half the links in the "Indian Cooking For Dummies" thread don't work for me -- although probably the reason they don't work has already been discussed in some other thread that I missed.) I've spent the last 2 hours searching for a definitive answer to my questions below to no avail.

3) Finally, this might be totally out of line, and I don't mean to offend anyone. But there seems to be a kind of prejudice against the westernized, Northern style dishes that are served in a lot of fast-food type, delivery restaurants I order from here in New York. I mean I am very fascinated with learning about, eating, and cooking all different types of Indian food from various regions, but I also am interested in learning how to make some of the dishes I've ordered from these fast food type places. Then again, I also like to eat at McDonald's and perhaps the negativity I've picked up on is from people that do not enjoy fast food in the first place. Hey, I can't help it if I enjoy Chicken Tikka Masala and the occasional Big Mac! It tastes good!

With all that off my chest, I will post my two basic questions.

1)

Carmelizing Onions - Until I picked up one of Julie Sanhi's (based on recommendations from this forum) none of the recipes I have tried had instructed me to fry onions to the point of carmelizing. But she discusses it thoroughly and in her Pork Vindaloo recipe I tried yesterday, it was a required step. I also noticed in the thread here under one person's pet pieves were undercooked or burnt onions. Should I be carmelizing onions as a matter of course whenever I cook an Indian dish? Does it depend on the dish? If not, what type of dishes would it be better to carmelize onions in? Being a novice to cooking, I guess I don't really even know what carmelizing the onions does to them other than when I eat them they seem sweeter and not as tart.

2)

Roasting Spices - Again, Sanhi's book was an eye opener for this as well. Although I had tried a few recipes that required me to roast a spice or two first, for most of the recipes I had tried I just added the raw spice when it called for it. This was another pet pieve from that same thread I referenced above: Bong wrote "one of my pet peeves is the smell and taste of uncooked spices in Indian food." I also have learned that raw spices can cause indigestion. After reading Suvir Saran's description of the years and years of training to become a "spice master" I am sure that it will take me a life time to get any kind of comfort about when to roast and when to use raw spices. But to make matters worse I don't even feel comfortable with the process of roasting spices in the first place. I find it really difficult to stair at 1/16 inch pieces of cumin sitting on the black surface of a pan (maybe I should get a white pan? haha) and determine when they turn from their greyish/brownish color to a darkish brownish color making sure that they don't turn to a darkish blackish color. I guess my questions from this are: Any general guidelines as to when to roast spices or what kind of spices should never be included raw into a dish? and Any tips on roasting spices? Perhaps I will become more adept at roasting with experience...

Thanks,

Richie

[Monica Bhide]

I shall post responses to your questions tonite.. in the meantime:

Please do not hesitate to post your questions. the only ignorant question is the one that does not get asked. We are all here to learn

The prejudice that you are seeing is very prevalent and amounts to in my opinion the same as how most westerns view the Big Mac.. in that there are other things to eat in the US besides cheeseburgers and in India besides chicken tikka masala. Your questions are important and this forum is about you and for you... so please keep posting and keep asking..

look for responses tonite.. i am just headed out the door.

[Sleepy_Dragon]

Well, I'll take a stab at the questions. I'm not Indian either btw, and there's plenty of basic stuff I'd like to ask too as it occurs to me. So, maybe another bungling newbie perspective can help you make sense of things.

Anyway, as far as caramelizing onions goes, to my tongue, it takes the raw sharp taste out. Biting into an undercooked onion chunk is pretty unpleasant to me amidst all the cooked ingredients, and I agree about it being much less digestible. Caramelization not only makes the onions sweet, but also adds a different level of flavorful complexity and texture too. That's something that applies to anything caramelized, not just onions, kind of like the difference between a steak that's been steamed and one that's been browned.

Also, if done slowly enough so that the onions brown evenly through and through, you end up with that sweet and crunchy onion garnish. Just drain over cloth or paper towels to soak up some of the grease, and sprinkle over the dish in question, while surreptitiously snacking on them at the same time.

For roasting spices, yeah that just takes doing and getting familiar with how they change. But after a couple tries, your eyes and nose know what to look for, especially for the ones like cumin. Maybe it might help to think of how toast is made and how the scent changes: first there's the undercooked moist dough-like scent as the water evaporates, then there's the golden brown good morning scent, then the acrid burnt scent if you let it go too far. It's similar for spices, where you want to pull them off of the heat in that middle stage.

It doesn't take long either, just don't do it on high heat, and keep shaking the pan to allow the spices to turn.

Hope that helps. I'm sure more experienced folks will be along to further elaborate.

Pat

[Monica Bhide]

1)

Carmelizing Onions - Until I picked up one of Julie Sanhi's (based on recommendations from this forum) none of the recipes I have tried had instructed me to fry onions to the point of carmelizing. But she discusses it thoroughly and in her Pork Vindaloo recipe I tried yesterday, it was a required step. I also noticed in the thread here under one person's pet pieves were undercooked or burnt onions. Should I be carmelizing onions as a matter of course whenever I cook an Indian dish? Does it depend on the dish? If not, what type of dishes would it be better to carmelize onions in? Being a novice to cooking, I guess I don't really even know what carmelizing the onions does to them other than when I eat them they seem sweeter and not as tart.

Caramelizing onions is a very important part of the cooking process primarily for North Indian dishes. It adds texture, flavor and taste to the dish. Raw onion flavor in dishes is a no no.. atleast the way I was taught. You cook the onions on medium high heat until the moisture dries up... add a bit of water to keep them from burning and keep going until the color is caramel and the onions are completely cooked.. this process is called bhunanna -- it takes time and elbow grease but the results are worth it. When you are cooking a dish.. the recipe should specify the how to deal with the onions..

still unsure.. post it here we are all here to help you

[Monica Bhide]

2)

Roasting Spices - Again, Sanhi's book was an eye opener for this as well. Although I had tried a few recipes that required me to roast a spice or two first, for most of the recipes I had tried I just added the raw spice when it called for it. This was another pet pieve from that same thread I referenced above: Bong wrote "one of my pet peeves is the smell and taste of uncooked spices in Indian food." I also have learned that raw spices can cause indigestion. After reading Suvir Saran's description of the years and years of training to become a "spice master" I am sure that it will take me a life time to get any kind of comfort about when to roast and when to use raw spices. But to make matters worse I don't even feel comfortable with the process of roasting spices in the first place. I find it really difficult to stair at 1/16 inch pieces of cumin sitting on the black surface of a pan (maybe I should get a white pan? haha) and determine when they turn from their greyish/brownish color to a darkish brownish color making sure that they don't turn to a darkish blackish color. I guess my questions from this are: Any general guidelines as to when to roast spices or what kind of spices should never be included raw into a dish? and Any tips on roasting spices? Perhaps I will become more adept at roasting with experience...

Thanks,

Richie

DOnt let people scare you away.. please. this is not the hardest thing in the world. How to tell when your spices are cooked.. use your nose... when you being to roast cumin on a griddle.. it will begin to lend out a heady aroma as it begins to cook and will noticeably darken in color.. it will trust me.. at this point remove it from heat. If it smells burnt then it is.. toss it out and start again. Its a cheap spice and a good one to practice on. Any cuisine can take a lifetime to master.. however it is not that we are looking to become masters but just as good as we can get.. and trust me we all can get good at this.. its a matter of practice.

Indian cooking is best learnt thru all the senses.. learn to hear the sound of the spice.. to see the color .. to smell the aroma..

In Indian cooking spices are generally never used raw.. they are cooked.

Here is a primer (at the end of this lesson) on the Indian spice cupboard. Beginners guide to regional Indian cooking and Indian spice cupboard primer

again ask more as you begin to experiment.

[Monica Bhide]

For roasting spices, yeah that just takes doing and getting familiar with how they change. But after a couple tries, your eyes and nose know what to look for, especially for the ones like cumin. Maybe it might help to think of how toast is made and how the scent changes: first there's the undercooked moist dough-like scent as the water evaporates, then there's the golden brown good morning scent, then the acrid burnt scent if you let it go too far. It's similar for spices, where you want to pull them off of the heat in that middle stage.

Pat this is perfect.. you have explained this extremely well.

[Sleepy_Dragon]

Thanks Monica, it's nice to be able to answer something for a change instead of asking!

Pat

[Richie111]

Thank you for your responses. This place rocks!

So based on what you've said, I guess I will generally carmelize all onions involved in any Northern dishes I prepare.

As for the spices, I will allocate a portion of my weekly Indian Food cooking time next Sunday to practice roasting spices. Up to now I had been using Madhur Jaffrey's recipe for garam masala (using all raw spices), but the Julie Sahni book I bought describes a Mughal garam masala (with raw spices) and just "garam masala" which is made with roasted spices (The former for use in cream, milk, yogurt, and fruit based dishes and the latter is suited for onion and tomato gravies). So I guess I'll make both and use the appropriate one in the appropriate dish. Thanks again!

Richie

Edited May 11, 2004 by Richie111 (log)

[Monica Bhide]

Thank you for your responses. This place rocks!

So based on what you've said, I guess I will generally carmelize all onions involved in any Northern dishes I prepare.

As for the spices, I will allocate a portion of my weekly Indian Food cooking time next Sunday to practice roasting spices. Up to now I had been using Madhur Joffrey's recipe for garam masala (using all raw spices), but the Julie Sahni book I bought describes a Mughal garam masala (with raw spices) and just "garam masala" which is made with roasted spices (The former for use in cream, milk, yogurt, and fruit based dishes and the latter is suited for onion and tomato gravies). So I guess I'll make both and use the appropriate one in the appropriate dish. Thanks again!

Richie

I am glad we were able to help you get started. Do not hesitate to post more questions and we will do our best to respond!!

[jw46]

Roasting Spices

Dry roasting spices, at least till you get the hang of it, roast them one at a time..Instead of your olfactories being assaulted by a cacaphony of aromas you can deal with just one...

That way, if you overdo it you only have to replace one component of your spice mix instead of the entire batch...

Kinda like training wheels on a bicycle, it won't take long for you discard this procedure. It worked for me...

It may take a bit longer, but how long does it take roast them in the first place?

The people here have a large collective knowledge..and are happy to share...If you ask a question that has been asked before, they will point you to the proper thread...but, it helps to do a bit of homework first..

Just my experiences in this room...no guarantees implied (Shoulda been a Lawyer )

[Sleepy_Dragon]

As for the spices, I will allocate a portion of my weekly Indian Food cooking time next Sunday to practice roasting spices.

Mrs. Jaffrey's books call for both the raw and roasted version of the same spice at times, so your practice wouldn't go to waste, especially for cumin.

Assuming you've got Madhur Jaffrey's Indian Cooking, her recipe for Cauliflower with Potatoes (phool gobi aur aloo ki bhaji) uses raw whole cumin, raw ground cumin, and roasted ground cumin. So it's a chance to see and smell the difference between raw and roasted cumin as well as use both at the same time, plus I think this dish is delicious. I make it all the time, and it's my go-to for office potlucks in my previous life. Disappears like a plague of locusts descended!

Pat

[bague25]

Richie

I was the one who wrote about the onion pet peeve!

The replies you have got above are wonderful! I just will add that some things need time and there's no virtue in rushing up the process (cooking onions & toasting spices are two of them).

I do not always caramalize the onions – sometimes they are cooked golden sometimes brown. What gets me is that some cooks just to gain a few minutes do not cook the onions enough and others put on the heat higher and burn the onions! The difference between burnt and caramalized onions is a few seconds – just as the difference between toasted and burnt spices…

In my opinion, you have put your finger on a couple points that make a whole difference between Indian food and GOOD Indian food. You certainly must be a good cook.

[scott123]

I'm not a huge fan of Big Macs, but my life pretty much revolves around the Indian Restaurant lunch buffet. It is a lifetime quest for me to faithfully replicate each of my favorite buffet dishes. I have a long way to go.

As far as onions are concerned, I caramelize onions (and lots of them) for almost every dish that I make regardless of the nationality involved. Someone in this forum mentioned their love for onions stemming from their Punjabi heritage. If this is true, then I must have been Punjab in a previous incarnation. I could just bath in onions, I love them so.

Caramelizing onions well took me quite a few years to master. One suggestion I'd offer you is to use plenty of ghee/oil. The more fat you use, the easier onions are to caramelize. Also, use your ears. Your ears will tell you the difference between a simmering/steaming onion (not enough heat), a burning onion (too much) and a gentle sizzle suitable for proper caramelization. At the right temperature your onions will sing a sweet little song. At the wrong temperature they will be like fingers on a chalkboard. Listening is much more reliable than a set temperature. Because onions are of varying ages, they tend to contain different levels of moisture. The heat required to sizzle a moist onion will burn a dry one, while the heat necessary for a dry one will steam an onion that is moist.

And as far as spices are concerned, I am definitely a beginner in that area, but I have noticed one thing. Nothing is written in stone. I love roasting my cumin but something like pepper, I prefer raw. Spices are highly individual. Taste them at every stage. If you prefer them a certain way, by all means, prepare them accordingly.

[Rushina]

Hi Richie111

Okie lots of proffesionals online here but I am not one of them.

The benifits have already been underlined in earlier posts but Id like to add a couple of tips that I find help me in daily Indian cooking.

Caramelising onions - I find that heating the pan up completely, and then the fat as well really makes for well cooked gravies. After this is done I drop in the onions and when they are transperant, I put in a a couple of pinches of salt and a bit of sugar. this would be say 1/4 teaspoon to 1/2 kg onions. I find this helps the onions cook faster.

Also in india we get thin layered purple/red onions that are very strong. In any which case I usually end up cryin even if I use a blender so what I do is prep for the week ahead on Sundays. While I am doing everything else I let a batch of onions cook down, which I then store in the fridge as and when I need them.

(I even serve them as is with a little fresh cream and Kitchen King Massalla stirred in. (this normally is on days when i make Rajma Daal and Jeera Rice which are so loved that cooking a vegetable with them is a waste since noone touches it. )

As for the spices, I do buy ready blends for Sambhar masalla and Pav Bhaji and then there is Kitchen King that I feel handicapped without. I generrally make my own Garam Masalla but use that really rarely since it has heaty properties.

Also when I grind masallas usually keep the bits that do not pass thru the sieve and use them in flavouring curries soups and gravies that I can strain.

Hope this helps

Rushina

Edited May 11, 2004 by Rushina (log)

[Richie111]

Also, use your ears.  Your ears will tell you the difference between a simmering/steaming onion (not enough heat), a burning onion (too much) and a gentle sizzle suitable for proper caramelization. At the right temperature your onions will sing a sweet little song. At the wrong temperature they will be like fingers on a chalkboard.

Thanks for the tip, Scott123. Never would have thought to use my ears.

Also in india we get thin layered purple/red onions that are very strong. In any which case I usually end up cryin even if I use a blender so what I do is prep for the week ahead on Sundays. While I am doing everything else I let a batch of onions cook down, which I then store in the fridge as and when I need them.

Thanks Rushina!

If I do a large batch of onions in advance, should I reduce the amount of pre-cooked onions I use in a recipe to adjust for the water loss in the onions?

Thanks again for all your responses.

[scott123]

If I do a large batch of onions in advance, should I reduce the amount of pre-cooked onions I use in a recipe to adjust for the water loss in the onions?

Yes, you do. Caramelized are just a fraction of the volume/weight of raw onions. Depending on how much color I'm looking for, my caramelized onions can lose 5/6 or more of their water. If you do them in advance, note how many onions you use and then split up the final outcome accordingly.

One thing about sauteing large batches of onions. The pan size/volume of onions makes a huge difference when caramelizing onions. Wide pans with very shallow volumes of onions require either copious amounts of ghee/oil or low temperatures to caramelize well, whereas narrower pans with deeper volumes of onions require much higher temps due to the lack of evaporation. If you do want to saute them in advance, I'd recommend no deeper than about 2" of onions in the pan. If necessary saute them in batches.

[Monica Bhide]

If I do a large batch of onions in advance, should I reduce the amount of pre-cooked onions I use in a recipe to adjust for the water loss in the onions?

Yes, you do. Caramelized are just a fraction of the volume/weight of raw onions. Depending on how much color I'm looking for, my caramelized onions can lose 5/6 or more of their water. If you do them in advance, note how many onions you use and then split up the final outcome accordingly.

One thing about sauteing large batches of onions. The pan size/volume of onions makes a huge difference when caramelizing onions. Wide pans with very shallow volumes of onions require either copious amounts of ghee/oil or low temperatures to caramelize well, whereas narrower pans with deeper volumes of onions require much higher temps due to the lack of evaporation. If you do want to saute them in advance, I'd recommend no deeper than about 2" of onions in the pan. If necessary saute them in batches.

Many friends of mine will make browned onion and then freeze it in usable chuncks .. saves a lot of time

[Richie111]

Thanks for the tips.

I am interested in these types of batch cooking techniques because I cook so much on my weekly cooking day.

Richie

[sequim]

There's a whole thread on carmelizing onions using a slow cooker. I tried it and it works, pretty carefree. Then you can make a huge batch.

I understand your frustration with the Search function. It doesn't work too well but they're working on getting a master index created, so I heard through the grapevine.

[jw46]

Your ears will tell you the difference between a simmering/steaming onion (not enough heat), a burning onion (too much) and a gentle sizzle suitable for proper caramelization. At the right temperature your onions will sing a sweet little song. At the wrong temperature they will be like fingers on a chalkboard. Listening is much more reliable than a set temperature.

Little good that does me..kinda deaf, can't even hear the doorbell...A victim of loud Rock n Roll and genetics...

Has to compensate with the rest of my senses...

But, indeed, a good idea for the non hearing impaired.

[chromedome]

I'm a relative newbie to Indian food as well, Richie (loved it for years, but just recently started to get serious about cooking it at home) and it's a real voyage of discovery.

You'll find, as you go, that the many spices have distinctly different characters according to how you use them...hence Jaffrey's use of cumin in three different forms, all in one recipe.

Coriander is another spice that's widely used in Indian and middle eastern cooking (I'm referring here to the seed, not cilantro). Try grinding some raw and cooking with it, then toasting some and grinding it. The flavours are very different. Or, toast some seeds and then use them whole in a simmered dish, like a stew or a dhal. You'll find that the seeds grow rather soft over time, and that the slow simmering will bring the spice's citrusy note to the fore.

Methi (fenugreek) seed is another one that's fun to play around with, and the various forms of mustard seeds, and, well...most of them, actually.

Son of a gun, now I've got a hankering. I'm going to have to cook myself some dhal tomorrow. It's a hard life...

[nessa]

Count me in as another who adores Indian food and is slowly learning to cook it. I'm reading this with avid interest!

[scott123]

Many friends of mine will make browned onion and then freeze it in usable chuncks .. saves a lot of time

Ice cube trays are great for this. I freeze separate portions of all my Indian "trinity": sauteed garlic, ginger and onions.

[Monica Bhide]

Many friends of mine will make browned onion and then freeze it in usable chuncks .. saves a lot of time

Ice cube trays are great for this. I freeze separate portions of all my Indian "trinity": sauteed garlic, ginger and onions.

I also add minced green chilies to mine..

[grapeshape]

Up until this thread, I, too, had thought this was a forum for the well-seasoned Indian epicure. It's wonderful to see I'm not alone as a newbie!