Favorite places to get the [definitive] New York hot dog

[Sandra Levine]

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/02/dining/02TOGO.html

 I've tried the basic hot dog at both places mentioned in the above article.   Neither was as good as Papaya King or Katz's, although neither of those establishments offer a hot dog that surpasses my benchmark -- a long-gone joint on Rt. 1 between Trenton and Philadelphia named Cliff's.  Cliff's dog was,if memory serves, an all-beef dog with a natural casing that the cook scored in a spiral lengthwise, cut a clot at either end and deep-fried.  When you bit into it, it snapped back.  Crif's was a barely seasoned, skinless beef and pork number that was dipped in oil until it was heated through.  Very disappointing, I think, especially because of the similarity of the names, "Crif's," and "Cliff's,"  not that I should have expected any similarities in the food based on similarities in the names.

Dawgs on Park was no better and not much different, although it offers Guss's sauerkraut, a plus for those who like sauerkraut on ther hot dogs.  I prefer mustard and green relish. (This strikes my husband as an aberration based on my Delaware Valley origins.)

 Holly, if you buy that truck, I'll be there.

(BTW, I like F & B, Hallo, Berlin, Papaya King and Katz's.)

(Edited by Sandra Levine at 9:55 am on Jan. 5, 2002)

[robert brown]

Does anyone know what dogs are used at the Red Rooster on Rt. 22 in Brewster? The place is a fun stop if you're going to the CT lakes or the Berkshires. What opinions are out there? I like the place in general, but haven't had a hot dog there in a long time.

[Stone]

Can't say I read they whole list, but Nathans, Nathans, and Nathans.

[John]

I'm from N.J. which I consider the hot dog capital of the world. We have many great hot dog restaurants serving a wide diversity of hot dogs ranging from Texas Weiners, Italian Hot Dogs, Kosher Style All Beef, N.J. deep fried (like Rutt's Hut and Hiram's) and quality beef/pork griddle franks like Max's, the Windmill, and the Galloping Hill Inn.

New York has basically the boiled pushcart Sabretts (okay, but I prefer grilled) and the well known places that serve all beef, grilled dogs such as Papaya King, Gray's Papaya, and Katz's. Two new places are Crif's Dogs which serves a deep fried Thumann's (same as Hiram's and Rutt's in Jersey) and F&B which uses the famous Usinger franks from Wisconsin. I love their famous Angus all beef frank; but F&B uses a beef/pork dog and quickly flash fries it.

I've contributed to the many hot dog posts on E-Gullet including this one on the quintessential N.Y. Hot Dog. I'm writing to share something that I just discovered. I knew that the dogs from Papaya King, Gray's and Katz's were produced by Marathon Enterprises of East Rutherford, N.J. (Sabrett). I was told by many people that each place had a proprietary recipe just for them. I've paid $37.50 for a 5lb bag of Papaya King hot dogs. Quite expensive I think. So I got to thinking that maybe I could get these same hot dogs at one of Sabrett's N.J. distributors a lot cheaper and a lot closer. I called 2 distributors and they said they were quite sure that the dogs sold at the three mentioned places were indeed the basic Sabrett hot dog. I didn't know whether to believe them. I contacted someone at Marathon and told them I was interested in buying hot dogs that were similar to Papaya King's. I think this person believed I was purchasing a large quantity for a business. He told me that they make 2 different dogs. One is all beef, and the other is a beef/pork blend. They come skinless or natural casing and in different sizes. But there are only 2 recipes. He assured me that the dogs at Papaya King and Gray's ARE THE EXACT SAME DOG! Ditto for Katz's except they are 8 to a lb rather than 10 to a lb for the other 2.

Furthermore, you can buy these dogs at a Sabrett distributor for $17.50 for a 5lb bag. This beats $37.50. Imagine that! I was told that these places want to be thought of as different and unique; so they like to say that their dogs are produced under a proprietary recipe or use special imported spices. Well, I consider myself a hot dog conniseur, but I was fooled. I did think they were pretty similar, but thought I preferred Papaya King. If there is any difference between Papaya King, Gray's, and Katz's, it is imagined. Or in the way they are cooked; although all are cooked on a griddle and Katz's is slightly larger. Funny that a lot of the mystique surrounding these places is strictly due to hype and marketing.. Don't get me wrong, they are great dogs; BUT THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME! In Jersey City, there is a place called Boulevard Drinks which serves the exact same dog grilled, only they call it Sabrett. So if you are in Jersey, try this place. I have heard that Nathan's are also made by Marathon, although I forgot to ask the person I spoke with; so I can't vouch for it. Marathon's beef/pork dogs are served at the Windmill (griddled) and Callahan's and the Hot Grill (deep fried). I don't know if it's appropriate to divulge any other info over this forum; so contact me if you have any questions.

[Rail Paul]

Thanks for the info, John.

Where's Crif's? Sounds interesting

[Sandra Levine]

Crif's is at 113 St. Mark's Place

[Suzanne F]

Finally made it to F&B today. Great Dane was great, except for ... the hot dog. Good snap, but not enough flavor to stand up to everything else -- maybe because it's so skinny? Veggie Good Dog was surprisingly good -- tasted and chewed like a decent supermarket-brand dog; I never would have thought "tofu." Excellent red pepper salad, but kind of skimpy on the feta, and they left off any other salad. Frite were crisp and greaseless (but are they brought in frozen? they had that texture). The biggest hits were the "haricots frites" with garlic herb butter (a LOT) and the lemonade.

[bpearis]

I really like Crif Dogs. The Chihuahua is the one to get -- the dog is wrapped in bacon, deep fried and topped with avocado slices and sour cream. It's something else.

If you're in Williamsburg, Sparky's Hot Dogs (North 5th, just off Bedford) is really good too. They have their buns specially baked for them and the meat comes from Niman Ranch. Crif Dogs is better, but Sparky's is in my neighborhood.

[Double 0]

So what did we learn today? The best hot dogs ( as well as so many other things) in New York is from Nrw Jersey.

[John]

Amen to that! If you make a quick trip to N.J. and are pressed for time, let me suggest that you at least try Rutt's Hut and Syd's. Rutt's uses the same dog as Crif's, but cooks them to different degrees of doneness. I like the "weller" or well done. Plus their relish is unique and the best hot dog condiment to go with this type of dog.

Syd's has a great all beef charbroiled dog. I prefer this dog to Papaya King and Katz's.

And if you want to add 2 more; Charlies Famous for Italian Hot Dogs, and the Hot Grill for Texas Weiners.

[DOG LOVER]

CENTRAL NEW YORK IS WELL AWARE OF THE BEST HOT DOGS.

'HOFFMAN'S. AS A CHILD WE TRAVELED 35 MILES TO GET CONEYS FROM HIED'S HOT DOG STAND IN LIVERPOOL, NY JUST OUT SIDE SYRACUSE.

THE CONEY NOW AVAILABLE IN MANY CENTRAL NEW YORK SUPERMARKETS WAS DERIVED MANY YEARS AGO, JUST FOR THIS FAMOUS HOTDOG STAND. AS DECADES PAST, HOFFMANS APPEARENTLY HAD A FALLING OUT WITH HIEDS AND NOW SELLS THE FAMOUS CONEY ALLIAS “SNAPPY GRILLER” FOR EVERYONE TO HAVE.

I’VE HAD FAMILY MEMBERS MAIL 10LBS AT A TIME TO ME AS FAR AWAY AS SAN DIEGO.

[slkinsey]

Easy on the all caps there, Chief.

And welcome to eGullet.

[John]

Here in North Central New Jersey, we don't have access to Hoffman's, but that will change soon. There will be a new Wegman's in Woodbridge and they will be carrying the Hoffman brand. I know that it is a German style beef and pork dog that is considered to be very good. Someone I know from Hartford, Conn. who lived near Syracuse is opening a hot dog restaurant in a matter of weeks. He spoke highly of Hoffman's and considered using them in his restaurant. He thinks that they are the best in N.Y. Have you tried Sahlen's? They are the dog served at Ted's in Buffalo and Tonawanda.

I spoke with this person who was looking for suggestions on German style dogs to use for his restaurant. He liked Hoffman's, as I said, and since he will be located in Hartford Conn., decided to sample a few Conn. dogs, his favorite being from Miller Provisions in Stratford. This is the dog served at Super Duper Weenie in Fairfield. I've had it, and in my opinion, it is one of the best dogs of this type that I've had. However, I think that Thumann's is the best. Made in East Rutherford, N.J.

He got ahold of some Thumann's from a distributor, then assembled a bunch of friends. They tried Thumann's, Miller's, Hoffman's, Grote & Weigel, Sabrett, Hummels, and a few others. Thumann's was the choice of about half, then Miller's, then Hoffman's. The restaurant will be going with Thumann's.

Taste is subjective, but the consensus was that Thumann's was tastier, and the dog of choice if the focus is on the dog alone without fancy condiments. Miller's and Hoffman's would be a better choice if you are going to serve chili and other condiments, as these two brands are tasty, but not too tasty that they clash with the other ingredients that may be offered.

Have you tried any of these brands? What do you think of them? I'm looking forward to trying Hoffman's when they come to Wegman's. Also looking to try the Sahlen's brand. Welcome to E-Gullet.

[Harry Covére]

So much about choosing your favorite hot dog is subjective. Like the best sex you've ever had or the best concert you've been to, it all depends on the events leading up and surrounding the experience -- Who were you with? How was the lighting? Were there thousands of people screaming? --all of these influence a great hot dog (and great concerts, and sex, for that matter) as much as the weiner, bun, and condiments themselves.

That said, I noticed that my favorite hot dog has yet to be mentioned in this thread, so I decided to give it a plug. Here's why it's my favorite:

I'm a big fan of Danny Myers' restaurants, and when I heard he opened a hot dog cart Madison Park last summer, I figured it'd be something worth biting into. The first summer it was open, I wasn't able to get up to Mad. park to try, but when I started a new job just a couple of blocks away, I wandered over one day to try out the Chicago-style hot dog (the only one in NY?) that I'd been hearing so much about.

The line at the 11 Madison Hot Dog Cart is usually 20-30 people deep at lunchtime, so bring a newspaper. On this particular day the line was slightly shorter, due to an intermittently rainy day. When I was about 10 people back, the heavens parted and the most ferocious rain started pounding the park. The kids (and they are kids; the staff tops out around 20, I'm guessing) at the cart looked up in surprise for a second, then at us, and then resumed what they were doing, ignoring the fact that they and their unbudging customers were already drenched (the prep area is covered by a 10x10 tent, which was keeping only the food dry). I considered running for shelter, but my nanosecond of hesitation was long enough for the rain, which was coming down so hard that even under an umbrella, it bounced off the pavement and up into your face, to saturate me down to my soul.

It started raining harder. This was insane. One of the hot dog kids invited those of us without umbrellas to seek shelter under the tent; pretty soon the prep table was surrounded by dripping, shivering customers. I had an umbrella, so I stayed in line, along with an elderly gentlemen. He gave me a smile and nodded, and answered the question I had been asking myself since the first drop hit the ground. "Yes, it's worth it," he said.

And it was. A few minutes later, we all had hot dogs (the crew continued assembling until everyone in line had what they wanted), and we all huddled beneath the tent, eating the freshest Chicago-style dogs (they have NY dogs as well), drinking homemade lemonade and laughing at sloshing shoes. After he got his hot dog, the old man next to me in line set his dog down on the table, grabbed a stack of napkins, and dabbed the face of the girl who was taking orders and making change, who's task forced her to stand under the edge of the tent and directly beneat the waterfall of runoff. When she had finished with the last customer, the old man picked up his hot dog and walked away.

It was, I guess, I New York moment. It was, I'm sure, worth it. It was, for now, the best hot dog I've ever tasted.

[tryska]

upstate i'd definitely second heid's - there's a full rundown in the syracuse thread.

downstate..hee hee..grays papaya! (i'm kidding - altho i did live on them for a while.)

[guajolote]

I'm a big fan of Danny Myers' restaurants, and when I heard he opened a hot dog cart Madison Park last summer, I figured it'd be something worth biting into. The first summer it was open, I wasn't able to get up to Mad. park to try, but when I started a new job just a couple of blocks away, I wandered over one day to try out the Chicago-style hot dog (the only one in NY?) that I'd been hearing so much about.

Chicago Tribune article about this place

Registration is required (you can use username egullet, password egullet).

I just bought some Nathan's hot dogs yesterday, and I like them much better than Vienna Beef.

[phaelon56]

In the nearly four years that I've been living in the NYC area I have yet to try an outstanding hot dog. I end up with Gray's Papaya more than anyone else's just by virtue of the location on 8th Ave, close to where I usually park when in the city.

I'm now relocating back to my hometown of Syracuse and Hoffman's are the gold standard here. It's an old German sausage maker that's been here for about a hundred years or so (the Germans came here to make the barrels used in the salt industry and also started the local ecclesiastical candle companies that still make the majority of church candles sold in the US).

Hoffman's doesn't have a web site of their own - they're probably available in Wegman's if you're near one or they could likely order you a five lb package.

Here's a source for Central NY food products that has them for sale but looks a bit pricey (although the freight charges are a significant factor).

[John]

In an earlier thread about 11 Madison Hot Dog Cart, it was stated that the dog used was a Usinger's all beef. This was even quoted in an article in Time Out magazine. Apparently they use a Vienna beef dog. This would make sense because it is the preferred brand for an authentic Chicago style hot dog.

I've had the Vienna beef (although a long time ago) and a Chicago style hot dog served at a place called Uncle Frankies in Bayville, N.J. Keeping in mind what Harry said (and what I always say) about taste being subjective, let me say that I was not impressed by the Vienna Frank or the Chicago style hot dog. I will be on vacation next week, so I will give this place a try and go there with an open mind and palate.

For me, the dog is the main attraction, and there is too much crap on a Chicago hot dog. And from what I remeber, the Vienna frank was ok; nothing special. Certainly not as good as Usinger's. A beef dog can be ok boiled, but is much better grilled. The Sabrett's grilled at Gray's are small, but I think much tastier. I'll know for sure next week. For a great beef dog, come to N.J. and try a dog from Syd's. A big 5 to a lb Best's brand dog simmered (not boiled) in water, then charbroiled. A great blend of spices with a perfect casing and texture. Also, try a bigger Sabrett (8 to a lb) with casing and slow cook it on a griddle. These are great dogs that can be found locally. Or go for a Usinger's from Milwaukee. But you have to order from their website.

I don't put much stock in atmosphere or other outside factors. I've tried these dogs numerous times, so if my tastebuds are off on a given day, I still have the other times to go by. Some people love Hot Dog Johnny's because it is in a scenic part of west Jersey and it brings back memories of when they used to go there as children. This is fine, but doesn't make a dog taste any better. At least not for me. If you like a German style beef and pork dog like Hoffmann's; let me suggest Thumann's in the blue and white package. This dog has more flavor than their dog made for deep frying. It is juicy, tender, and delicious. Maybe the best dog available anywhere.

[John]

Being on vacation, I had a chance to get up to Madison Park today to try the Chicago Hot Dog. I got there early so that I wouldn't have to wait on line. I was the second person on line, and by the time they opened, there were 10 to 15 people behind me. I would guess that a lot of their customers are people who hang out in the park and listen to the free concert. Anyway, they sell a lot of dogs.

From the above referenced article in the Chicago Tribune, this place serves an authentic Chicago style hot dog. The Vienna franks, rolls, and condiments are all from Chicago. For me, a lot of the enjoyment of sampling hot dogs is the anticipation of finally trying something that I've heard a lot about and forming my own opinion after hearing a lot of other people's. See the earlier thread on 11 Madison Hot Dog Stand elsewhere on Egullet.

I ordered a Chicago Hot Dog and a New York hot dog. The New Yorker is a Vienna frank with mustard, relish, onion, and that red onion mix. I got mine with just mustard so I could really sample the vaunted Vienna Frank. I don't like to comment on something until I've tried it, but sometimes I have an idea whether or not I will like it. I never anticipated liking a Chicago style hot dog because of all the stuff they throw on it, and I consider myself something of a bear bones guy when it comes to hot dogs. A good quality dog (with casing) and some good mustard. Occassionally some Texas Weiner style chili or some of Rutt's Hut unique relish which goes great with their milder deep fried dog.

I sampled the New York dog first. The Vienna (all beef) frank was ok, but very mild for an all beef dog. And skinless. Good size (8 to a lb rather than 10 like the streetcart dogs), but as Holly said in the Chicago thread, not as flavorfull or spicy as a Sabrett, Nathan's, or Usinger's. And definitely not as good. Mild, with a slight aftertaste reminding me somewhat of the spicing in a piece of corn beef; but very subdued. This dog was the same size and shape of a Best (N.J.) skinless dog sold in the supermarket. It even tasted a little bit like Best, but much lighter in flavor. In fact, I would describe this as a Best light. I know that a boiled Vienna frank is the Chicago style, but I would have liked this dog better if it had a natural casing and was grilled.

On to the Chicago dog. As for appearance, I would say that this dog is closer in appearance to Byron's than any of the other dogs pictured on Holly's web page. A lot of condiments rather than a little like Gene and Jude's. The lettuce, tomatoes, cucumber's, relish, etc were good. And fresh. And it was great to finally try an authentic Chicago Hot Dog. With an open mind. But I must say that it was pretty much what I expected. I enjoyed the contrast between cold vegetables and hot meat. But for me, the hot dog's the thing. And you would be hard pressed to identify even a spicier, bolder frank under all the ingredients contained on this dog. It really is a salad dog. Not bad, and I can understand how some people may like it. But it is not for me. Ok in the park, but given a choice, I'd take a grilled Nathan's or Gray's any day.

After finishing my dogs, I took the subway to Times Square in search of Papaya King. I found out that this location went out of business. I walked down to Gray's on 8th and 36th. Had one of their well done grilled dogs. I enjoyed this one much more. I spoke with someone working there who confirmed that the dogs are 10 to a lb Sabrett's. I also found out that the mustard is Sabrett's. Very good mustard.

I suspect that if I lived in Chicago, I would go for one of the places like Gold Coast or Weiner's Circle that charbroil their dogs. And use the natural casing Viennas.

Again I must say that no place compares to New Jersey as far as the quality and variety of hot dogs. Although Connecticut and New York are gaining some ground. Since Crif Dogs opened up, you can get something similar to a north Jersey deep fried dog in N.Y.

I do take issue with the writer from the Chicago Tribune who said, "Compared with the bland tubes of mystery meat for sale at most street corner carts, the typical Chicago hot dog is meaty and has more spice. And following Chicago custom, the specimens sold at the Madison Ave Park stand are boiled, not grilled." Well, they are boiled, not grilled, and at 8 to a lb are a little bigger than the 10 to a lb boiled sabretts sold at most street carts. But no way does the Chicago dog have more spice. And if a boiled Sabrett is bland, than the Vienna would have to be considered less than bland.

[Jinmyo]

John the hot dog guy is so dreamy.

Really, I do admire your expertise.

[John]

Thank you Jin, I'm flattered. My next stop will be a place in West Jersey; Alpha, to be exact. Charlies Pool Room, which is an old building that used to be a jail. Original cash register from 1928. Dogs are cooked as ordered in a cast iron frying pan. The house specialty is a Hungarian style sause which was passed down from the grandmother. Anyone been to this place?

[Felonius]

Does anyone here know which came first in NYC, Gray's or Papaya King, the chicken or the egg?

I cast my favorite dog vote for Gray's, but I'm no expert in this realm as compared with other egulleteers.

The Gray's at 72nd and Broadway has been a regular stop for me ever since I moved to NYC, and is the most satisfying meal-to-dollar ratio to be had in NYC in my opinion (what else can one buy in NYC for 75 cents other than a pack of gum?).

[tommy]

fat guy will answer this i hope.

[Jason Perlow]

Papaya King was first. Grays was second.

However, Grays is usually regarded as the better place, since its cheaper and the hot dogs are considered to be somewhat better.

Seriously, where the hell else on this planet can you get two grilled Sabretts and a Papaya drink for $2.75?

[Holly Moore]

I wanted to like Grays but found them mediocre. Fine for the price, of course, but nowhere near being a great hot dog. Papaya King on the other hand has it all together. And for my $1.50 I'd rather get one Papaya King than 2 Grays anytime.

John - if you're heading to west jersey, stop by Eddie's Drive-In in Phillipsburg next to the free bridge to Easton. They serve a steak dog - hot dog topped with cheesesteak meat and a sweetish sauce. All beef dog because Ray, who now owns Eddie's, says the beef dog and the steak play well together, a pork dog and the steak doesn't. And thanks for the heads up on Charlie's Pool Room. Looks like I'm going back to the Easton area sometime soon.