NYC Pizza Survey

[kurl]

I think after Totonno, L&B Spumoni Gardens should be next, because they are supposed to be a Sicilian style pizza specialist and we havent evaluated a good square pie yet. Its also a 65 year old restaurant (1939), so while it is not in the same coal oven genre as the others, it should be recognized as one of the original NYC pizza places nevertheless.

http://www.spumonigardens.com/

Also the spumoni makes it a great summer place -- good call.

[slkinsey]

I think after Totonno, L&B Spumoni Gardens should be next, because they are supposed to be a Sicilian style pizza specialist and we havent evaluated a good square pie yet. Its also a 65 year old restaurant (1939), so while it is not in the same coal oven genre as the others, it should be recognized as one of the original NYC pizza places nevertheless.

http://www.spumonigardens.com/

I'm pretty sure I said something about this early in the thread, but it bears restating more clearly. . . We decided as a group early on that it made sense to visit the most famous/legendary NYC pizzzerie first, to get the lay of the land and a firm grip on the NYC style. It also made sense to start with the most traditional (and suposedly the best) pizzerie before branching out. From this idea emerged the Big 5: Di Fara's, Grimaldi's, Patsy's (East Harlem), Lombardi's and Totonno's (Coney Island). We determined that we would try to visit these as early as possible in our survey (I also like the idea of a return trip later on for a re-evaluation, but that's neither here nor there).

So, since we knew where we wanted to go first, JosephB and I have done most of the organizing thus far. Now that our visit to the last of the Big 5 is within sight, it's a good time to look to the future. Joe and I have no interest in being the "bosses" of the Pizza Survey, picking out where we're going to go next and all that stuff. There are plenty of pizzerie around here worth visiting, and hopefully plenty of eGulleters who would like to share their favorite pizzeria with all of us.

If there's one thing that the Survey has revealed thus far, it's that insider information can be crucial in terms of getting the most out of a pizza trip. So, what I think makes sense going forward is that any time someone has a pizzeria they think we should visit, they should "sponsor" it in this thread, which means several things: A) giving a brief description of the pizzeria, and letting everyone know what makes it so cool that they should check it out; B) detailing any important specialties (e.g., "spicy crawfish tail pizza") or quirks (e.g., "they close at 5:42 on Saturdays"); and C) taking the lead on organizing a trip out there. Forum Hosts such as myself, Pan, JosephB, etc. are always available to help with organization, of course.

So, having said that... I do totally want to check out L&B Spumoni Gardens. Hopefully we have among our membership some regulars who would be willing to give us the inside scoop.

[alacarte]

Before the next eGulleter steps up (and I have no doubt that someone(s) will!), just wanted to thank JosephB and slkinsey for graciously organizing the outings to the 'Big 5' pizza joints. We raise a glass of Merlot in your honor.

THANKS!!

[kurl]

Readers may also be interested in this blurb written by some schmo who probably doesn't know what he's talking about anyway.

From the advance-planning department: Perhaps we should lump 2 or 3 Manhattan by-the-slice places together and do them all in one trip. It struck me that, for instance, Joe's in the village is probably worth visiting but not in itself worth a whole trip.

[alacarte]

Readers may also be interested in this blurb written by some schmo who probably doesn't know what he's talking about anyway.

From the advance-planning department: Perhaps we should lump 2 or 3 Manhattan by-the-slice places together and do them all in one trip. It struck me that, for instance, Joe's in the village is probably worth visiting but not in itself worth a whole trip.

That reminds me... maybe at some point we can do a comparison of the place that serves pizza by the inch (PINCH) and the one that does pizza by the pound (I forget the name), preferably both in the same day, I think both are downtown anyway, one Village & one Flatiron. Could be amusing to do those together.

[Pan]

In Balmagowry's blog, she has these comments about some pizza she got at the Cinema Cafe:

Of special note among the other dishes: ultra-thin-crust pizza, very delicate and light. Really, no thicker than a crepe. Crisp at the edges; discreet as to toppings and quantities thereof.

It's been years since I went to the Cinema Cafe, and I don't remember being very impressed with the food, but again, that was a long time ago. Anyone else tried their pizza? Should we add it to our list, in due time?

[JosephB]

The guys over at Slice posted a close-up photo of the inside of Grimaldi's oven, which shows a pizza cooking alongside an intensely burning pile of coal. They also suggest eG for further reading about Grimaldi's.

[bpearis]

According to the May 4 edition of New York magazine, there's a new pizza contender: Franny's in Park Slope.

A featherweight anchovy-and-caper pie was so thin on our first visit, it was almost see-through, the tomato sauce just barely painted on. Spicy artichokes with tomato and grated pecorino was a nifty combo, redolent of fresh mint.

[phaelon56]

I don't know.... when I read adjectives such as "featherweight", "see-through" and "redolent" all in the same paragraph describing a pizza.... I get a bit nervous. Then again.... if it has the name pizza assigned to it, this makes it fair game for the survey, correct?

[slkinsey]

Franny's sounds awesome. I definitely would like to check it out. I read things like this, and it's like they're speaking my language. Witness the profusion of slkinsey buzz-phrases:

All of this is prelude to the pizza, rough, rustic beauties perfumed with smoke, exquisitely charred, and served unsliced in the Neapolitan style. Franny’s makes much of its blazing wood-burning, brick-walled beehive oven, and with good reason: This is a crust-lover’s pie (at the expense, some might think, of the sauce, the cheese, and the toppings, which are applied with a minimalist touch), and the crust triumphs, even though Feinberg and crew must still be acclimating themselves to the dough and the fire. The pizza was different every time we had it, but always uncommonly tasty.

Damn, that piques my interest... JosephB? What are you doing this weekend?

[phaelon56]

That's what I get for reading out of context and not clicking on the link - this place sounds like a winner.

[Mister_Cutlets]

Hey guys -- love this thread. I thought you should know about a new place that opened -- La Ciccala, on 64th and Lexington. Their ovens are gas-burning, but the young pizziole that they brought over from Rome is a master. It's really worth trying. Personally, I don't think Lombardi's can hold a candle next to his work.

sincerely,

Mr. Cutlets

[JosephB]

Franny's sounds awesome. I definitely would like to check it out. I read things like this, and it's like they're speaking my language. Witness the profusion of slkinsey buzz-phrases:

All of this is prelude to the pizza, rough, rustic beauties perfumed with smoke, exquisitely charred, and served unsliced in the Neapolitan style. Franny’s makes much of its blazing wood-burning, brick-walled beehive oven, and with good reason: This is a crust-lover’s pie (at the expense, some might think, of the sauce, the cheese, and the toppings, which are applied with a minimalist touch), and the crust triumphs, even though Feinberg and crew must still be acclimating themselves to the dough and the fire. The pizza was different every time we had it, but always uncommonly tasty.

Damn, that piques my interest... JosephB? What are you doing this weekend?

I'd be there first thing tomorrow if Donna and I weren't headed for Texas this weekend. I'll have to settle for BBQ instead.

[ahr]

That's what I get for reading out of context and not clicking on the link - this place sounds like a winner.

Speaking of clicking on links, click through to the reviews of Totonno's and Lombardi's.

[slkinsey]

Speaking of clicking on links, click through to the reviews of Totonno's and Lombardi's.

That guy's a hack.

[slkinsey]

'Ray! Updated list below:

Totonno Pizzeria Napolitano -- Coney Island May 14, 2004

1524 Neptune Ave.

Between 15th and 16th Sts.

718-372-8606

JosephB and Donna

slkinsey and bergerka

docsconz

Blondie

Alacarte

Pan

jogoode

kurl

phaelon56

Eric_Malson

SarahD

[alacarte]

'Ray! Updated list below:

Totonno Pizzeria Napolitano -- Coney Island May 14, 2004

1524 Neptune Ave.

Between 15th and 16th Sts.

718-372-8606

I'm confused -- the Totonno's link only notes restaurants on the Upper East Side and Yonkers.

[docsconz]

It is a confusing web site, but if you click around you can find references to the original Coney Island location.

[picaman]

Be sure to use the men's room--you have to go through the kitchen to get to it, and it'll give you an excuse to check things out and maybe talk to employees.

alacarte, SuzanneF, and other non-men are free to try it as well if you prefer, instead of using the ladies' room that's accessible from the "dining room"

Have fun!

Jamie

[phlfour]

I am a new member from the West (Colorado). We try to make New York style pizza here, but due to the altitude and it's effect on yeast, no real effort is rewarded. Any suggestions?

P

[JosephB]

I am a new member from the West (Colorado). We try to make New York style pizza here, but due to the altitude and it's effect on yeast, no real effort is rewarded. Any suggestions?

P

Hi phflour. Welcome to eGullet!

If you were here we could talk about your question over lunch today!

I don't know if your question has ever been asked in the baking threads, but if it hasn't you should start a discussion there. We have some very knowledgeable members when it comes to bread and pizza making.

[richw]

I have only been to New York City a few times, and every single time I visit it's pretty much an eating tour. The entire trip is spent walking everywhere and finding grub. I haven't had much time to plan for my visit on the weekend of 5/21. Usually I would spend about 4 hours a week for like a month just finding out where to eat. I will be staying at the Sofitel at 45 West 44TH Street and was wondering if any of the pizza places mentioned in this thread are nearby. My preference is for a slice or two, not a sit-down with a whole pie. I have to leave room for way to much other good stuff.

TIA,

Rich

[kurl]

I just got back about 20 seconds ago. The pizza was, for the most part, very good. The company was wholly superlative -- knowledgable and entertaining.

Highlights included extended conversations with members of the family who own the place which included the amusing fact that Lombardi's left its original location because the subways cracked the pizza ovens as well as a brief glimpse of the Totonno's photo archives. Other highlights included a sublime white pie (as well as all the pies' cheeses and crusts) and running into the smallest dog in the world on the way out. Low points were pies with toppings on them, which all seemed too wet.

[Pan]

I enjoyed meeting you, too, kurl!

I wasn't disturbed by the amount of sauce. It was very tasty sauce. And the mushroom flavor on that mushroom pizza was wonderful! Plus, the crust, though of moderate thickness, tasted very good. If Totonno's was in my hood, I'd go at least twice a week.

Overall, I like both Grimaldi's and DiFara's better - Grimaldi's for the overall quality of the thin-crusted pizza and their lovely fennely sausages (the sausage at Totonno's was tasty but though I at first thought it was comparable to Grimaldi's, I ultimately think it fell pretty clearly short), and DiFara's for their truly special toppings like baby artichokes, porcini, baby eggplants, and so forth. And the regular slice at the East Harlem Patsy's is also delicious.

But I have to say that atmosphere counts for something, and I don't think I've ever experienced a nicer atmosphere in an American pizzeria than I did this afternoon at Totonno's. It's owned by a family that's proud, friendly, and talkative; they don't rush you out; they give you excellent service; and it wasn't crushed with customers (though I guess it would be in the summer). And the walls reminded me of Katz's, with all the pictures of the family and of celebrities endorsing the pizza, historical events that have happened since the opening 80 years ago, and press clippings.

On food alone, at this point, my ranking of the "big 5" is DiFara's, Grimaldi's, Totonno's, Patsy's, and at a distant 5 - falling out of the rankings - Lombardi's. The reason I rank Totonno's over Patsy's is pretty clear: Their toppings are immensely superior by comparison. All of the toppings we had today were good. The primary flavor of the pepperoni was a strong bite of hot pepper, but I felt that had a good effect as an accompaniment to the sauce. The plain pizza was delicious, even if probably inferior to Patsy's. And the white and mushroom pizze were terrific. By contrast, Patsy's does one thing fantastically, but don't get any toppings when you go there.

Edited May 15, 2004 by Pan (log)

[Fat Guy]

It has been really enjoyable watching the pizza survey push through the big 5 pizzerias. Great work, guys, and thanks for providing this steady flow of information and impressions. Isn't it amazing how a methodical and careful comparison puts things in perspective?

A few thoughts based on reading here:

- Putting DiFara's in the big 5 grouping is somewhat idiosyncratic. The other 4 members of the group are serving one species of pizza, and DiFara's is serving another. The way I see it, the 4 non-DiFara's pizzerias in question are at or near the top of one hierarchy, while DiFara's is number 1 in a different hierarchy. To me it's similar to the comparison between two steakhouses, one of which specializes in the porterhouse and the other of which specializes in the ribeye. Assuming both steakhouses are doing everything right, if you say you like one better than the other, you're mostly expressing a preference as between porterhouse and ribeye.

- Would it be possible for someone to assemble a master list of what pies were sampled at what pizzerias? Some of the emerging consensus here is, I think, predicated on unlike sampling. For example, would I be correct in assuming that at Patsy's nobody had mushrooms or sausage? Of the 4 places that I consider relevant to that comparison (in other words, excluding DiFara's, which I see as light-years ahead in terms of toppings but not overall comparable), Patsy's has the best mushrooms -- they use fresh portabellas and they cook up beautifully. I also think Patsy's uses an excellent sausage product. One of the best pizzas at Patsy's, also, is the one with red bell peppers.

- I'm shocked -- shocked -- that alacarte was the only surveyor to express a strong preference for low-moisture over fresh mozzarella. I'm doubly shocked to see fresh mozzarella described as more flavorful -- I simply can't think of any measure of flavor by which that would be true. Maybe if we were talking about buffalo mozzarella, that would be one thing. But fresh "mozzarella" made from cow's milk is fundamentally low on flavor. The low-moisture alternative, which has had some time to develop, presents more flavor across the spectrum, as far as I'm concerned. It also melts to a more desirable texture.

- That you need to time your visits to Grimaldi's so carefully in order to get pizza that doesn't suck is, to me, inexcusable. That indicates a level of incompetence so high that noplace with such practices deserves to be on a big-4 or even big-1000 list.

- Kurl made reference to wet pies at Totonno's. Also inexcusable. These people are supposed to be professional pizza bakers. What possible excuse could they have for such a deficiency in the majority of the pies they serve? This is one of several reasons I think Totonno's falls short of its inflated reputation.