NYC Pizza Survey

[Pan]

Interesting. I figured it was, but I'll try to remember to ask.

[SobaAddict70]

What? No Otto?!?!!?

Soba

[alacarte]

Aha. Okay, so ordering a calzone there is like ordering a whole pizza. There's no slice equivalent. Never seen that before. Never even seen it at Di Fara, to which I've been about a dozen times. I'm a keen observer of my surroundings, as you can tell.

I've seen the "really big calzone" phenomenon once before. Sal Anthony's used to have a pizza joint below their restaurant on Irving Place (the restaurant still is there -- the pizza joint is no longer, and has evolved into a "lounge"-type space).

My husband and I ordered a "large" calzone for take-out, and doubled over with laughter when we opened a large pizza box...to find that the calzone was merely a large cheese pizza, folded in half!

Regarding the next pizza outing -- a colleague just told me on Friday that Grimaldi's pizza is absolutely wonderful, and worth the trip to Brooklyn.

Sherri, awesome pictures. I can almost smell the pepperoni pizza!

[picaman]

Mr. DeMarco is the anti Totonno, meaning he was really pleasant and easy to talk with.

A small note--the older man who used to be so cranky and close up shop when the dough ran out in the Coney Island Totonno's is now deceased. His son (I think) runs the place now and is actually a very friendly guy. We chatted pleasantly several times last year--Totonno's is my regular stop before Brooklyn Cyclones games, and you have to go through the kitchen to get to the men's room. And they actually keep regular business hours now! Still no slices and cash only.

For my money, it's the best pizza I've had in NYC. Their coal-fired oven definitely makes a difference. I sincerely believe that you could limit your pizza search to the places that have those ovens, if expediency was an issue. Which, of course, it isn't!

Thanks to everyone for a very interesting thread.

Jamie

Edited January 26, 2004 by picaman (log)

[slkinsey]

I sincerely believe that you could limit your pizza search to the places that have [coal-fired] ovens, if expediency was an issue. Which, of course, it isn't!

Before Saturday, I would have said the same thing. But, if nothing else, the pizza at Di Fara puts the lie to this argument. Dom's pizza is miles better than what many coal-fired ovens are producing -- quite a bit of which is not all that good (e.g., non-Harlem Patsy's).

[JosephB]

Regarding the next pizza outing -- a colleague just told me on Friday that Grimaldi's pizza is absolutely wonderful, and worth the trip to Brooklyn.

Boy, that's an understatement!

It's worth noting that Grimaldi is much closer to Manhattan than it is to most of Brooklyn -- it's one subway stop from Wall Street.

So K, does that mean you'll be joining us?

[JosephB]

Totonno's is my regular stop before Brooklyn Cyclones games, and you have to go through the kitchen to get to the men's room. And they actually keep regular business hours now! Still no slices and cash only.

That's interesting. You had to go through the kitchen to use the bathroom at DiFara. Same situation at Patsy's in Harlem, at least for one of the dining rooms.

Cash is also common at these old pizza joints. So far, I know that Totonno, Grimaldi, DiFara, and Patsy's in Harlem only accept legal tender as payment.

[sherribabee]

Cash is also common at these old pizza joints. So far, I know that Totonno, Grimaldi, DiFara, and Patsy's in Harlem only accept legal tender as payment.

And I noticed that at Di Fara's there was no hand-washing or hand-wiping of any sort between handling the money and preparing the pizza.

I just tried to forget I saw that.

[picaman]

I sincerely believe that you could limit your pizza search to the places that have [coal-fired] ovens, if expediency was an issue.  Which, of course, it isn't!

Before Saturday, I would have said the same thing. But, if nothing else, the pizza at Di Fara puts the lie to this argument. Dom's pizza is miles better than what many coal-fired ovens are producing -- quite a bit of which is not all that good (e.g., non-Harlem Patsy's).

Interesting--I'll have to give this place a try. There's an exception to every rule, I guess; so I gather that your opinion is his prep and care with ingredients overcomes the advantage of a crust baked in a coal-fired oven?

I will grudgingly admit that perhaps DiFara is the only exception to the rule, pending perusal of the pie

Jamie

[slkinsey]

Jamie, my working hypothesis is that the quality of the pizza depends on three things, in this order: 1. the quality of the ingredients, 2. the expertise of the pizzaiolo and 3. the equipment used.

Great pizza starts with great ingredients. No one can make great pizza with crappy cheese and an insipid sauce. Then, as Di Fara demonstrates, a great pizzaiolo can take the pizza to the next level on just about any equipment. Finally, I do agree that there are certain effects that are only possible with a coal- or wood-fired pizza oven. But the third consideration only comes into play if the other two are already met. I don't believe a coal-fired oven can overcome substandard ingredients, and I don't believe a coal-fired oven can compensate for an unskilled pizzaiolo or an operation which has priorities other than the quality of the pizza (e.g., volume -- one of the things that makes Di Fara so good is that Dom's slow pace keeps his crappy oven at the highest temperature it can manage). The proof of this hypothesis is, I think, found in the abundance of extremely mediocre pizza coming out of coal-fired ovens in the City. I'll take a skilled pizzaiolo with a gas-fired stainless oven over some schmo with a coal-fired masonry oven any day of the week.

[picaman]

The proof of this hypothesis is, I think, found in the abundance of extremely mediocre pizza coming out of coal-fired ovens in the City.

The hypothesis sounds good on the face of it, but I didn't think there were more than a handful of coal-fired ovens operating in NYC. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Can you be more specific about which places with coal-fired ovens are producing mediocre pizza?

Jamie

[JosephB]

Jamie, my working hypothesis is that the quality of the pizza depends on three things, in this order: 1. the quality of the ingredients, 2. the expertise of the pizzaiolo and 3. the equipment used.

Great pizza starts with great ingredients. No one can make great pizza with crappy cheese and an insipid sauce. Then, as Di Fara demonstrates, a great pizzaiolo can take the pizza to the next level on just about any equipment. Finally, I do agree that there are certain effects that are only possible with a coal- or wood-fired pizza oven. But the third consideration only comes into play if the other two are already met. I don't believe a coal-fired oven can overcome substandard ingredients, and I don't believe a coal-fired oven can compensate for an unskilled pizzaiolo or an operation which has priorities other than the quality of the pizza (e.g., volume -- one of the things that makes Di Fara so good is that Dom's slow pace keeps his crappy oven at the highest temperature it can manage). The proof of this hypothesis is, I think, found in the abundance of extremely mediocre pizza coming out of coal-fired ovens in the City. I'll take a skilled pizzaiolo with a gas-fired stainless oven over some schmo with a coal-fired masonry oven any day of the week.

It's really hard to argue with Sam's logic. When we argue about coal-fired v. gas-fired, I think we presume that the quality of the ingredients is superior, and the pizzaiolo is adequately skilled. However, these are not always true premises.

In my opinion, all three elements cited by Sam are present in at least one kind of pizza prepared by Grimaldi and Patsy's in Harlem (I haven't been to Totonno or Lombardi). For that reason, I think they are superior.

[slkinsey]

The proof of this hypothesis is, I think, found in the abundance of extremely mediocre pizza coming out of coal-fired ovens in the City.

The hypothesis sounds good on the face of it, but I didn't think there were more than a handful of coal-fired ovens operating in NYC. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Can you be more specific about which places with coal-fired ovens are producing mediocre pizza?

Several of the Patsy's have coal-fired ovens, AFAIK. And all are mediocre other than the one in East Harlem.

[picaman]

It's really hard to argue with Sam's logic.

I agree with Sam's working hypothesis completely. I don't necessarily agree that there is an "abundance of extremely mediocre pizza coming out of coal-fired ovens in the City." That's why I'm interested in his opinion of where these pizzas are.

Jamie

[MRX]

Mr. DeMarco is the anti Totonno, meaning he was really pleasant and easy to talk with.

A small note--the older man who used to be so cranky and close up shop when the dough ran out in the Coney Island Totonno's is now deceased. His son (I think) runs the place now and is actually a very friendly guy. We chatted pleasantly several times last year--Totonno's is my regular stop before Brooklyn Cyclones games, and you have to go through the kitchen to get to the men's room. And they actually keep regular business hours now! Still no slices and cash only.

For my money, it's the best pizza I've had in NYC. Their coal-fired oven definitely makes a difference. I sincerely believe that you could limit your pizza search to the places that have those ovens, if expediency was an issue. Which, of course, it isn't!

Thanks to everyone for a very interesting thread.

Jamie

At the CI branch of Totonno's, it's his grandson, if I am not mistaken...and yes he's a great guy. Very friendly and willing to chat. His Mom is a bit more sullen, but she seems to like me. I just still get a little fear everytime that I go there, due to my first experience with Totonno. I was in from way out east on LI and had heard of this mecca of pizza. My friend and I were around 14 years old and asked for slices....and pretty much ran out of the place.

I still think that it is such a worthwhile trip for anyone who has never been. Totonno's is absolutely fantastic...but don't bother with the mediocre UES coal fired Totonno's...like the branches of Patsy's, there is no substitute.

[JosephB]

Totonno's is absolutely fantastic...but don't bother with the mediocre UES coal fired Totonno's...like the branches of Patsy's, there is no substitute.

I suppose the UES Totonno is an example of a coal fired pizza place with mediocre ingredients, and a poorly executed pie.

[MRX]

Totonno's is absolutely fantastic...but don't bother with the mediocre UES coal fired Totonno's...like the branches of Patsy's, there is no substitute.

I suppose the UES Totonno is an example of a coal fired pizza place with mediocre ingredients, and a poorly executed pie.

Emphasis on the "poorly executed". The ingredients seem fine. And it is one of the better pies in the neighborhood, I just don't invite friends there.

[Pan]

I think that in the fullness of time, we might want to add another sit-down restaurant that serves individual whole pies to our list of places to visit: Col Legno. I usually have pasta and other stuff there, but I recall finding their pizza fine, and I believe they have a coal oven (either coal or wood, which would make sense given their name).

The F doesn't help me much since I'd have to take either the 2 or Q from Brooklyn College.

[picaman]

Aaaaargh.

Pizza Makers Consider Low-Carb Dough

Jamie

[slkinsey]

Aaaaargh.

Pizza Makers Consider Low-Carb Dough

indeed, my friend. Yuck.

My favorite paragraph was the final one:

Still, Goglio said, "If you want to really eat good food, you can't cut down carbs."

Exactly.

[picaman]

Still, Goglio said, "If you want to really eat good food, you can't cut down carbs."

Exactly.

Looks like a great sig line to me!

Jamie

[sherribabee]

Aaaaargh.

Pizza Makers Consider Low-Carb Dough

Jamie

My thoughts on the matter:

If you wanna be on the low-carb bandwagon, fine. But [insert soup nazi voice] no pizza for you!

[jogoode]

I got off a bit early from work yesterday and rushed to make it to DiFara's. I was expecting a long line to get in to the small place. I suppose some people -- not me -- think that there are better things to do on a Saturday night, because the place was almost empty; of course the many kosher pizzerias on Avenue J were packed. I was excited to try the square pizza for the first time, because of Sherri's pictures, and was prepared to order an entire pie. But I heard one of the other customers ask for "half a square" and decided to do that, too -- it's good to know that's possible. I ordered my half with pepperoni. When it came out, hot, the cheese was almost liquid and the pizza was spilling oil. I feared for the crust. But it stayed crisp and the pizza was great. The few blobs of fresh mozz melted on top tasted almost like ricotta and parmigiano on top added dimension to the taste. The sauce, though, which sort of combines with the low-moisture mozz, is my favorite part.

I hope you all are still planning a trip to Grimaldi's...

[marthapook]

I quickly read through all the posts looking for mention of Sullivan Street Bakery's pizza.

I know it's unconventional, but please don't tell me that I'm the only one who thinks the stuff is amazing - or does it not qualify as pizza because you can only get it with cheese or with sauce or with mushrooms or with celery root......?

[slkinsey]

Bux, I believe, is a great admirer of the pizza-like product at SSB. Might be worth a little trip some time. Do they bake to-order, or are they premade?