A Prison Food Discussion

[Holly Moore]

I will also note that the prison that's closest to me is Starke (where a lot of death row inmates are housed). I don't know how many of you have ever been to Starke, Florida. There's not much that can be grown there (it's very rural - but it's basically "cattle country" - an area where cows graze before they're sent to the finishing lots in Texas). And the 2 fanciest restaurants in town are Woody's BBQ and Cedar River Seafood (both local chains where the expensive meals are less than $10). So I doubt the average prison worker in Starke (yes it is pretty much a "company town") is going to be very receptive to a whole lot of food-oriented stuff.

Stark is but one prison within the Florida DOC. There are prisons located about the state. Lot's of agriculture happening in Florida. Seems like some of the prisons would be in favorable areas for planting crops. Spread it around and share. In the urban prisons, a bakery, like Rikers. Run trucks between facilities.

As to priority, I'm betting that the priority of Govenor Bush and the legislature is to cut costs. And what's a more politically popular place to start than the prison system? Short term that's bringing a prisoner from 2700 calories a day to 2500. Maybe eliminating Weekend breakfasts. But long term it is getting the prisons to be self sufficient. To raise their own livestock (Starke sounds like just the place for that) and to grow their own crops. Free labor and no layers of middle men grabbing their slice of the food budget.

[Pan]

Holly, I think that by law, prisoners have to be paid for work, though I think the salary is nominal (cents on the dollar). I'd love for someone who actually knows what levels are set for prisoners' salaries in the various states to chime in.

[robyn]

Stark is but one prison within the Florida DOC.  There are prisons located about the state.  Lot's of agriculture happening in Florida.  Seems like some of the prisons would be in favorable areas for planting crops.  Spread it around and share.  In the urban prisons, a bakery, like Rikers.  Run trucks between facilities.

As to priority, I'm betting that the priority of Govenor Bush and the legislature is to cut costs.  And what's a more politically popular place to start than the prison system?  Short term that's bringing a prisoner from 2700 calories a day to 2500.  Maybe eliminating Weekend breakfasts.  But long term it is getting the prisons to be self sufficient.  To raise their own livestock (Starke sounds like just the place for that) and to grow their own crops.  Free labor and no layers of middle men grabbing their slice of the food budget.

Agriculture/food production is the second largest industry in Florida (behind tourism). But - for the most part - it isn't really "plant a garden in your yard" and "live off the land" stuff in most parts of the state. The two largest areas are citrus and cattle. Citrus is suited only to very specific parts of the state (south of Orlando). To produce reliably - you need a lot of stuff - chemical spraying apparatus - sprinklers to save the crops during hard freezes - etc. You have to deal with citrus canker (a big problem now). And most of the citrus grown here is oranges destined for juice production. They all tend to ripen around the same time - and then it is a race to get them off the trees and into the juice production plants. When oranges are being harvested - you can drive on I95 and the Florida turnpike and see all these huge trucks loaded top to bottom with oranges. It's kind of cute if you're a south Florida homeowner to have a few trees so you can make OJ in season. It is probably a heck of lot cheaper to buy OJ if you're running a prison (and - of course - a lot of our largest prisons aren't in the citrus belt - except if you count things like Meyer lemons and Mandarin oranges which can grow in the northern part of the state).

As for beef cattle - they're not normally born in Florida - and they're not slaughtered here. They're brought here to graze and "grow up". Then they go to the finishing lots in Texas before slaughter.

We have many other crops too. The largest in this area - close to Starke - is potatoes and cabbage. Again - very specialized large scale farming endeavors.

Do we all have gardens and try to grow stuff here? Sure. Do we have 4H where kids raise cows for the county fair? Yup. But they are boutique endeavors for the most part - costing more than buying in supermarkets would cost. About the only thing I can grow successfully for less than it would cost me in the supermarket is spring mix (from Martha Stewart seeds). It's an early crop - and lasts for about 8 weeks before the heat and bugs mess it up.

Anyway - I guess the point I'm trying to make is that prisons aren't large enough for commercial agriculture - and boutique gardens wouldn't "cut the mustard" either. And is the state government trying to save money on prisons? I hope so. And that probably isn't only true in Florida - it's probably true everywhere. With federal unfunded mandates to do lots of things - especially expensive health care things like medicaid - everything else is on the table for examination and re-examination. If it makes sense money wise to bake bread in prisons - I'm sure it's done. And perhaps prisons can grow certain things in a way that makes sense economically (I've never seen a garden at a prison but perhaps they exist). If something doesn't make sense money wise - I'm sure it isn't done. Those are just the facts of life when it comes to state budgets these days in my opinion. Robyn

[Pan]

Robyn, I think we should be careful about assuming that government is always optimally efficient. Just because something is logical and would save money does not mean that any level of government is doing it.

[robyn]

Robyn, I think we should be careful about assuming that government is always optimally efficient. Just because something is logical and would save money does not mean that any level of government is doing it.

I was just browsing around on the Department of Corrections web site - and found this in the FAQ section. I am sure governments are not "optimally efficient" - but they have powerful incentives to try to save money these days.

"3. "Why don't inmates grow their own food and save taxpayers some money?"

Inmates do grow some of their own food and expansion of the Bureau of Field Support Service's Edible Crops program continues. In Fiscal Year 2001-02, the Bureau cultivated approximately 1,200 acres and harvested 5.5 million pounds of produce. In 2002-03, approximately 1,500 acres will be cultivated and it is expected that 7.5 million pounds of produce will be harvested. The number of inmates assigned to the edible crops program continues to increase, due largely to the expanded use of close custody inmates supervised by Field Force Officers. Field Force Officers, mounted on horseback, supervise close custody inmates who are assigned to work in the fields cultivating the edible crops. Usually the squad is made up of four mounted, armed officers and one unarmed (on the ground) supervisor who control up to 75 close custody inmates. These squads currently exist at Apalachee Correctional Institution (CI), Florida State Prison, and DeSoto Annex. With the privatization of food service delivery in our department, the edible crops program is moving toward more centralized operations on our large-scale farms, thus allowing greater efficiency in processing and distributing harvested products."

[Mayhaw Man]

Holly, I think that by law, prisoners have to be paid for work, though I think the salary is nominal (cents on the dollar). I'd love for someone who actually knows what levels are set for prisoners' salaries in the various states to chime in.

Pan-Here is your answer as far as we go down here.

This prison is huge. There are 1800 civilian workers, a small employee-town, six large complexes, and 18,000 acres of working farmland. Once an 18th century slave plantation, named for the slaves from Angola, Africa, this serene agricultural place is a business for Warden Burl Cain. "It costs $10,000 dollars a day to feed 5000 men." He will pay them between 4 cents and 21 cents an hour to work, "workin' all day so they're tired at night." This warden cares for them, forgives them, but firmly believes in capital punishment. But mostly, for him, this is a place of business.

This quote was taken from this article from the University of Wyoming. It concerns the excellent documentary The Farm, which everyone involved in this spirited discussion should watch. If it is possible to make an even handed documentary about something as controversial as a prison like Angola, this guy has done it. I highly reccomend it to anyone interested in a cold, hard, but very interesting look at somewhere I hope none of us ever has to go.

[SethG]

OK - let me try this without being ad hominem. A bunch of you here are lawyers - and some of you are expressing concern about what prisoners eat. If you're conservative - I will note that we have about 78,000 prison inmates in Florida - and most of them are scum (I did some criminal defense work - not white collar). If you're liberal - I will note that we have 365 people on death row - and most need lawyers to help them in post-conviction appeals (the public defender only handles the first post-trial appeal). So I really don't see that food is an issue that's terribly important.

I don't know how much criminal defense work you've done, Robyn, but you are the first criminal defense lawyer I've ever heard refer to his or her clients (current or former) as scum.

Given this attitude, it's hardly surprising that you don't think what prisoners eat is very important.

But if you read adrober's paper, I would think that you'd realize that it is important. How we treat our prisoners on a daily basis says a lot about us as nation. And the cases adrober has examined, all on the face of it concerned merely with trivial food, raise larger questions about what is truly "cruel and unusual punishment." I would hope that his post might make a few people who have no familiarity with the system think a bit about how we treat our prisoners.

[Pan]

Thanks, Brooks. That certainly is an interesting article, and I'm sure the film is more interesting.

[adrober]

Ok, so here's an another factor thrown in from my "Law and the Unconscious" class. This class (yes, it really is a class in the law school) could also be named "Law and Psychology" but that's not as catchy.

Our teacher, Martha Duncan, wrote a book called "Beloved Prisons, Romantic Outlaws." In it she argues, among other things, that many prisoners actually subconsciously desire to go to prison. She argues that those with oral personalities---people who were most gratified at the oral stage of development (when being breast-fed)---crave prison because it is a place that, despite the danger, structures their lives for them. These are people who see prison as (forgive the metaphor) a giant breast, sustaining them as well as disciplining them. For many prisoners, prison is the mother they never had.

Why am I telling you this?

Because I don't think prison farming addresses the neediness of prisoners. It's a way to keep them busy, yes, but it doesn't solve the problem of what we ultimately put in their mouths. I'm not a psychology major or a fan of Dr. Phil, but in addition to confinement making food more meaningful, I'd imagine that oral personalities have more to gain and more to lose with each meal.

I'd say more, but the giant breast--aka my mother--is making me go to lunch. Ciao!

[fresco]

Thanks for the explanation. I now understand where the expression "in the jug" comes from.

[tryska]

Around and near the Atlanta Federal Penitentary are conspicuous croppings of Church's Chicken, Wendy's, Krystal, and of course McDonalds. Is this a coincidence?

this is true of any corner of any major intersection OTP tho. I wouldn't see it as a coincedence, necessarily.

personally - i think if our prisoners got a taste of Islamic law, a lot more would be thankful to be getting 3 hots and a cot, with their limbs intact.

[Cusina]

Adrober, thanks for posting your paper. It is well written and a very interesting topic for dicussion. Here are my not-a-lawyer thoughts:

Growing and raising food for the sustenance of several thousand people year round is difficult. It requires serious skill no matter where you are in the country and can't be run on manual prison labor alone. I can't imagine that hiring people to plan/run/maintain this kind of prison operation would be cheap or easy to do. Here in WI my nearest prison is situated on cheap rocky land unsuitable for farming and sandwiched between landfills (lovely spot, really, can you believe they just built a new subdivision right next to it?!). The climate is hardly condusive. We have roughly a 5 month growing season. In December, they would all be enjoying snowballs and roadkill for lunch. For these reasons and others mentioned I just don't think self-sustaining prisons will ever be the norm.

I don't really subscribe to the freudian oral fixation theories. While interesting, it is far too simplistic to be viable. Boobs are popular in prisons I'm sure, but not the root of all evil.

The real question here is reformation. Can criminals be reformed? Some yes, some no. Can food help to reform criminals? Some yes, some no. The problem is that reformation is an individual learning process and each criminal needs different things to accomplish that feat. Prison treats everyone the same. I don't know if this is wrong or cruel, it just is. I think that better food is extremely unlikely to be a pancea. Fat Guy had a good point when he said we should do more studies, but studies also cost money and so don't happen often. It a huge viscious cycle of frustration.

I laughed out loud at the BK idea though. Bourdain, you have great comic timing.

[Squeat Mungry]

It seems to me that the prison kitchen setting is an enormous opportunity for developing skills that can be used "outside". I remember seeing a program on FTVN about a restaurant run by ex-cons, San Francisco maybe?

The SF restaurant is Delancey Street. It was established in 1971 by Master Chef Mimi Silbert and is still going strong. You can read a Horizon Magazine article about it here.

Cheers,

Squeat

[Fat Guy]

I don't really subscribe to the freudian oral fixation theories. While interesting, it is far too simplistic to be viable.

I certainly understand that there are a lot of low-IQ people in prison, but you have to be exceptionally stupid to think -- even unconcsiously -- that prison is the most convenient way to have your life controlled and structured. It's much easier just to marry a control freak or get a job at Disney World.

[beans]

It's much easier just to marry a control freak or get a job at Disney World.

Hey! I was a Disney Castmember for several years!

[adrober]

I don't really subscribe to the freudian oral fixation theories.  While interesting, it is far too simplistic to be viable.

I certainly understand that there are a lot of low-IQ people in prison, but you have to be exceptionally stupid to think -- even unconcsiously -- that prison is the most convenient way to have your life controlled and structured. It's much easier just to marry a control freak or get a job at Disney World.

Ha. Point taken.

But there is no doubt that institutionalization is a phenomena pretty universal in prisons. It was dramatized well in "The Shawshank Redemption" with the character of Brooks who became so used to prison life he couldn't function on the outside.

So whether or not it is the most "convenient" way to find structure, it is--for many--the most inevitable. One sad statistic states that 1 in 4 black men between the ages of 20 and 29 will go to prison. America also imprisons more of its own citizens than ANY other country in the world. There are 2 million Americans in prison right now, with the number rapidly growing thanks--in part--to mandatory drug laws.

Thus, while I concede that the idea in and of itself seems "exceptionally stupid," the sad fact is that many prisoners do unconsciously become conditioned to prison life. That regular meals play a part in that is a consequence of the process. In addition to Martha Duncan's book, I recommend that you read "Roots of Crime" which discusses chronic thieves who--for the most part--have no reason to steal other than a subconscious craving to be caught.

[robyn]

I don't know how much criminal defense work you've done, Robyn, but you are the first criminal defense lawyer I've ever heard refer to his or her clients (current or former) as scum. 

Given this attitude, it's hardly surprising that you don't think what prisoners eat is very important. 

But if you read adrober's paper, I would think that you'd realize that it is important.  How we treat our prisoners on a daily basis says a lot about us as nation.  And the cases adrober has examined, all on the face of it concerned merely with trivial food, raise larger questions about what is truly "cruel and unusual punishment."  I would hope that his post might make a few people who have no familiarity with the system think a bit about how we treat our prisoners.

Other lawyers in my firm did most of the criminal defense work. I just did a little. It was my bright idea to do a pro bono death penalty case one year. That was a mistake. Anyway - our clients weren't nice people. I get the impression there are people here who think that most people in jail are languishing there after being convicted of possessing a couple of joints. That's not true. The current breakdown of our state prison population is:

Murder, Manslaughter 10,552 14.4%

Sexual Offenses 8,277 11.3%

Robbery 10,056 13.7%

Violent Offenses 8,867 12.1%

Burglary 11,655 15.9%

Theft, Forgery, Fraud 5,710 7.8%

Drugs 13,383 18.2%

Weapons 2,020 2.7%

Other Offenses 2,968 4.0%

Data Unavailable 65

Total in Prison on 6/30/02 73,553 100.0%

And - as far as drug cases go - my firm was involved in some in the 80's in Miami. These guys were scarey. We knew lawyers who were murdered - judges and lawyers who wound up in jail due to questionable activities with the drug guys - etc. For what it's worth - I believe that drugs should be decriminalized. Simply because I believe that organized drug activities have a tendency to corrupt government (including the legal system). And I really don't much care about the people who use drugs except if they hurt other people (and we have plenty of laws on the books to deal with that).

By the way - there is a short biography of every Florida state prisoner on the Department of Corrections web site. You won't find too many people for whom you'll feel any sympathy.

Also - I did find out the daily budget for food for a Florida state prisoner is $2.55. The total daily budget is about $47. Of that $47 - 80% goes to security (i.e., guards) and medical care. In fact - medical care is almost 25% of the total daily cost (and the prison population is aging rapidly). So I think the challenge here for people who are interested in food isn't esoteric - it isn't philosophical - it's how to put decent food on the table for thousands of people for $2.55/day. Robyn

[robyn]

As a former criminal defense attorney -- it was not my career focus but I spent a year doing white collar defense work and also handled white collar clients when I practiced on my own -- I have to agree with much of what Seth just said. Most of the 2.1 million people under incarceration in the US are non-violent. The minor drug offenders (who nonetheless sometimes get amazingly long sentences) are just one category of relatively non-violent prisoners. Some of the white collar criminals I defended would probably be heavy eGullet users were they not spending all their time fighting esoteric federal securities-fraud charges. Every time I dealt with one of these clients, I thought there but for the grace of God go I. I don't see any reason to torture such people by giving them horrible food, as that guy in Maricopa County advocates.

At the same time, there are hundreds of thousands of prisoners who are deep into the scumbag category. Rapists and murderers, in my opinion, deserve whatever food they need to survive and that's it. I have no problem using any means necessary to control them, including quality and quantity of food. Their incarcerations should be unpleasant...

At least in Florida - it appears that the majority of people in prison are violent - or lucky (someone convicted of burglary is lucky that the place he burgled wasn't occupied - otherwise it would be a robbery which is violent).

As for white collar criminals - I don't know why they should be treated differently. As Woodie Guthrie said - "Some men rob you with a six-gun - others with a fountain pen." In fact - there is an argument to be made that some rich jerk who steals a whole lot of money by breaking securities laws should be treated *worse* than the poor guy who just tried to steal a little by breaking into your house and stealing your stereo. (Note that I did some securities work - plaintiffs' side of the aisle).

By the way - some criminal clients our firm handled had fair amounts of money. They ate at the finest restaurants and drank the most expensive wines. So when they wound up in Atlanta (maximum security federal place - at least a couple asked to be sent there because they knew their way around the place) - you think they deserved better food because they were used to it on the outside? They deserve good food - while murderers and rapists deserve lousy food?

I have a very simple view of criminal law. It's meant to *punish* people who violate the law. That's what prison is - a punishment. For a lot of experienced criminals - doing the time is part of the price of engaging in their chosen field of work. And for inexperienced criminals - well I guess they have to learn things the hard way. Robyn

[Richard Kilgore]

For an interesting perspective, see Rob Walsh's profile of a Texas prison chef, in his new book, Are You Really Going To Eat That?

[Fat Guy]

At least in Florida - it appears that the majority of people in prison are violent

One more time, and then I'll stop pointing this out every time someone gives a statistic even though I have a feeling we'll hear more statistics that need to be clarified: there are three major components of the penal system: federal prisons, state prisons, and local jails. You can't look at statistics for, say, state prisons, and draw conclusions about the penal population as a whole. Especially when it comes to violent offenders, state prisons are the most likely destination for those offenders. Federal prisons, on the other hand, are overwhelmingly occupied by those who have committed crimes in the areas of immigration, narcotics, fraud, bribery, insurance, banking, embezzlement, etc. The majority of people under incarceration in the United States today, when all prison and jail populations are taken together (the only way that makese sense for such a statistic), are incarcertated for non-violent crimes (i.e., the highest offense is non-violent). Certainly some of the allegedly non-violent convicts are violent anyway, but even if you discount for that we're still talking about something like a million people locked up who are non-violent. Since this is a discussion about prison food not prison statistics per se, I think the existence of a million non-violent incarcerated people in the US is relevant and no food-related argument changes whether it's 10% more or less.

[SethG]

Thank you, Steve. I've been refraining from adding my two cents on this because you so correctly requested that we try to avoid getting bogged down in statistics.

But I do want to add one thing. Many crimes charged as "violent" do not necessarily involve violence. In New York, for example, Burglary in the Second Degree is a violent felony offense, and a person is guilty of this charge if he or she enters a dwelling unlawfully with the intent to commit a crime therein. The term "dwelling," unfortunately, is very broadly defind as a place where people spend the night, and thus includes many buildings that are not homes, like hospitals. So a person who sneaks into a storeroom at the hospital and steals some pills is guilty of... Burglary in the Second Degree, a VIOLENT FELONY OFFENSE.

This is just one example, and I raise it simply to make people aware that statistics listing some percentage of inmates as "violent" are likely overinclusive. I know they are in New York.

[robyn]

Thank you, Steve.  I've been refraining from adding my two cents on this because you so correctly requested that we try to avoid getting bogged down in statistics.

But I do want to add one thing.  Many crimes charged as "violent" do not necessarily involve violence.  In New York, for example, Burglary in the Second Degree is a violent felony offense, and a person is guilty of this charge if he or she enters a dwelling unlawfully with the intent to commit a crime therein.  The term "dwelling," unfortunately, is very broadly defind as a place where people spend the night, and thus includes many buildings that are not homes, like hospitals.  So a person who sneaks into a storeroom at the hospital and steals some pills is guilty of... Burglary in the Second Degree, a VIOLENT FELONY OFFENSE.

This is just one example, and I raise it simply to make people aware that statistics listing some percentage of inmates as "violent" are likely overinclusive.  I know they are in New York.

Well - if I have to spend a night in a hospital and there's a guy down the hall with a stocking cap and a gun trying to steal pills - I'll just try to keep in mind that he isn't violent .

For what it's worth - my husband and I were "burgled" once while we were sleeping. The guy came in our bedroom and stole our wallets. Luckily we are sound sleepers .

Anyway - to get back on topic - doesn't matter whether the inmates are violent or not. The chefs cooking for them in Florida get $2.55/day to feed them. Lest you think this a ridiculously small amount of money - it's basically what people on food stamps get to eat (and they aren't cooking on a large scale - the large scale has certain economies - of scale). Remember that a lot of our military families have to live on food stamps. And I don't think any politician in the US will get elected on the platform of "More Money for Food for Prisoners".

So you're the chef - you've got $2.55/day - what do you do?

It is all well and good to philosophize in law school papers. Quite another thing to be the person who's in charge of purchasing and planning menus to feed hundreds/thousands of people - whether it's in a prison - the military - a school - or any large institutional setting. For what it's worth - the only place where I eat institutional food these days is the nursing home where my father-in-law is a resident (they have a cafe where staff and visitors can eat - and residents can join their visitors for meals). I am quite sure the daily food budget is many times more than $2.55/day. Still - it is interesting to see how the chefs there cope with the limitations that the institution imposes on them - and how they come up with some interesting cuisine. Robyn

[Holly Moore]

So you're the chef - you've got $2.55/day - what do you do?

1. Score points with my boss by bringing the number in at $2.45 a day.

2. Keep at $2.55 until just before the next general election when the legislature, with great public aclaim, lowers it to $2.45 a day.

3. Keep being billed at $2.55 a day, but feed the inmates at $2.45 a day, and discuss much needed home renovations with my suppliers.

[robyn]

... Certainly some of the allegedly non-violent convicts are violent anyway, but even if you discount for that we're still talking about something like a million people locked up who are non-violent. Since this is a discussion about prison food not prison statistics per se, I think the existence of a million non-violent incarcerated people in the US is relevant and no food-related argument changes whether it's 10% more or less.

Relevant to what?

I don't think any American politician is going to campaign on a platform of more money for food for prisoners than military families because the prisoners have been convicted of non-violent crimes.

So what are your ideas about how to improve food at $2.55/day? I happen to love pasta - and it's cheap. It is also a "happy" cuisine in my opinion. I don't at all feel degraded when I eat it. So perhaps more pasta is a good idea. Note that I am not being facetious (I can talk about the philosophy of a lot of things - but "food" is an "applied art" in my opinion - you have to "just do it"). Robyn

[robyn]

So you're the chef - you've got $2.55/day - what do you do?

1. Score points with my boss by bringing the number in at $2.45 a day.

2. Keep at $2.55 until just before the next general election when the legislature, with great public aclaim, lowers it to $2.45 a day.

3. Keep being billed at $2.55 a day, but feed the inmates at $2.45 a day, and discuss much needed home renovations with my suppliers.

Are you a chef?

I guess it is hard in this rarified atmosphere to think of cooking in institutional settings where budget is a factor. But it is a factor in the lives of most people - not only people who live in institutions. The only difference is that in the family setting - a non-professional is the person in the kitchen. In an institution - there's a professional (or quasi-professional).

I have developed a lot of admiration for the nursing home kitchen staff over the last couple of years. They have a lot of things to deal with. A budget for one. Second - they have to keep strict kosher (and kosher food is expensive). Third - they have to feed 200 people 3 times a day - people with all kinds of dietary restrictions - e.g., sugar intake and salt intake. Fourth - they have to make food appealing to people who are basically sick - many of them really aren't interested in food. It's a challenging job in my opinion - probably more challenging than making a high end meal with fancy ingredients for healthy people with big appetites and no dietary restrictions.

I imagine it's even more challenging for chefs in institutions with lower budgets - like prisons - and the military. I saw a show on the Food Network - the military cooking competition. Cooking food for hundreds out of cans and packages in the field was one part of the competition. My hats are off to those chefs. I couldn't do it. I have also seen food classes here in my area given for Navy chefs. They cook with mixers that are as tall as I am (on some of the ships - they're feeding 3000-4000 people a day).

And I imagine the prison work might be the worst of all. Not only do you have all the budget restrictions and other limitations - but you'll never get a show on Food Network even if you do a great job. In my opinion - there is a certain dignity in trying to do a job like this as well as possible. Robyn