No Good Values in Burgundy?

[Craig Camp]

I think there are many good red Burgundies under $25 that can be found with just a bit of effort. I would much rather drink these wines than many new world pinot noirs. I think the image that all inexpensive Burgundy is junk is indeed a cliche. From The Washington Post:

It has become a cliche to say that great Pinot Noir is the universally sought but rarely found Holy Grail of winemaking, but this isn't quite true. You can find 100 killer Pinots almost every year in Burgundy, and in a great vintage like 1990 you can find 500 of them. The real problem is that virtually every one of them will set you back at least $60, with the very best ringing up at 10 times that amount. What do you get if you roll the dice and try red Burgundies priced at, say, $15 or less? You most likely get an acidic, thin, astringent, snarly little glass of something that tastes as if it was made by macerating sticks -- and sticks from a dead tree at that.

[Boris_A]

Hello Craig

How about searching in Burgundy near regions like Alsace, Jura, Switzerland?

I had more then once the opportunity of professional blind tastings with Burgundy pinot noir compared with pinot noir from Switzerland. Especially in the lower price ranges $12-18, some Swiss pinot did better compared to wines from Burgundy in the $18-25 range. However, the style of the wines are similar.

Because I'm a bit familiar with the region: especially 2003 could be a great vintage for pinot in nothern Switzerland (Lake of Zurich region, Buendener Herrschaft). I think today it's maybe the best source for underrated Burgundian style pinto noirs.

It's still an insider secret and availabilty at the best producers is not always much better than in Burgundy itself.

And (I don't say unfortunately), there's almost no export of these wines.

Here's a example tasting report: Burgundy vs. Swiss pinot

Among the tasters was Stuart Pigott. The ratings and the price tags don't need to be translated.

Of course, searching in "obscure" wine regions not emerging in the radar of the big media is always a lot more difficult than to order some DRC bottles and requires a self-confident tasting judgment. But when I read your excellent articles, it's obvious that you know quite a lot about that kind of hard, adventurous work.

[Craig Camp]

I would love to learn more about Swiss pinot noir. A subject which I do not know much about - which is my fault because the Swiss border is only about a half-hour from our house.

Please keep us up to date and give us some of your favorites.

[M65]

hey Craig how about finding some declassified Burgundies, exceptional values, if u need to find out where emai me Mel@BistroM.com

Ciao

Mel

[M65]

also, have uever checked out the German Spatburgenders

great value

[Craig Camp]

hey Craig how about finding some declassified Burgundies, exceptional values, if u need to find out where emai me Mel@BistroM.com

Ciao

Mel

Let us know your secret supplier! What exactly do you mean by "declassifed" - overproduction?

Pinot is pretty tasting with Eurasian food. What are some of your favorite matchups.

[Boris_A]

give us some of your favorites.

The most famous is "Gantenbein", but it's rather difficult to get bottles and prices are in the $30 range.

From the same region Bündner Herrschaft, I like the very reasonably priced wines of Mrs. Irene Grünenfelder, Weingut Eichholz in Jenins.

Two sure bets for values in northeastern Swiss pinots from the lake of Zürich region:

- Jürg Schneider from Meilen

- Herrmann Schwarzenbach from Meilen Schwarzenbach

Prices are $10 for simpler steel tank pinot and up to $15 for barrique wines.

Unfortunately, I don't know of a supplier in Ticino where you could find some tasting bottles.

OTOH, I suggest a detour to the Malcantone Ticinese (should be around the corner for you) and visit some guys like:

- Christian Zündel in Croglio/Castelrotto near Ponte Tresa

- Daniele Huber in Termine di Monteggio (between Ponte Tresa and Luino)

Addresses and phones are supplied in "I Vini di Veronelli".

They produce interesting, high rated, quite unique Merlots (Zündels "Orizzonte" and Hubers "Montagna Magica", $25-$40 though) and they should know some insider talk about pinots from Northern Switzerland .

[budrichard]

It is refreshing to hear from someone that doesn't allow the 'Wine Spectator's' evaluation of $100+US bottles of Red and White French Burgundy as 'good values' to influence their thinking! My belief is that the valuation system of the classical French Burgundy is out of control . We are drinking up the stocks we have and not purchasing anymore. There is a lot of wine available in the world right now, at excellent prices. It doesn't pain me to not have a Montrachet or Musigny on my table anymore. -Dick

[DaleW]

I think there are many good red Burgundies under $25 that can be found with just a bit of effort.

I agree. Even in the less than stellar 2000 vintage I found nice Pinot in the Denis Clair Bourgogne-Hautes Côtes de Beaune ($12), Michel Gros Bourgogne-Hautes Côtes de Nuits($13),Claude Marechal Bourgogne "Cuvée Gravel" ($18), and especially the Michel Lafarge Bourgogne ($18).

My personal opinion is that at every level on Burgundy, producer rules.

[Echezeaux]

Keep in mind, too, please, that the Loire is capable of producing stylish Pinot Noir. I tasted one from a fellow who produces, mostly, Pouilly-Fume and this was incredibly good. It is not in commercial production, but demonstrated there is potential for Pinot Noir in France outside of the Cote d'Or.

There are good Sancerre Rouge wines, of course and a vintner or two in Menetou-Salon offers juicy, cherryish Pinot Noir with a bit of wood.

[LOS]

My belief is that the valuation system of the classical French Burgundy is out of control . We are drinking up the stocks we have and not purchasing anymore. There is a lot of wine available in the world right now, at excellent prices. It doesn't pain me to not have a Montrachet or Musigny on my table anymore. -Dick

I completely agree with Craig's original post, and I'm not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing. If by 'the classical French Burgundy', you are referring to Musigny, Montrachet, Clos de Beze, et al, then I think we're in agreement. Certainly the prices on these wines are higher than ever, but that's just a symptom of the overall wine market where the very top wines have skyrocketed in price. Very few regions (maybe Spain, for traditionally made wines) have resisted this. In many areas, the lesser wines' prices have ridden the coattails of their more expensive big brothers'. I think this is less true in Burgundy than in many other regions.

I bought the 1993 D'Angerville Volnay '1er Cru' for $20 on pre-release. The 2001 will be under $35. That's still notably inflated, but consider what else has happened in the wine market, and it seems downright reasonable. The 2002 will be under $40. For that kind of money, you can find a few single-vineyard Oregon pinots, but not many. I'd much rather have the D'Angerville. Or the village Volnay from Lafarge for a few less $$$, or Roumier's village Chambolle for a few more $$$. Or .., or..., or...

At the 25$ level, you can buy the Bourgogne of nearly any grower, and there are quite a few village wines from the lesser appellations. For 25$ from Oregon, you're pretty much limited to Willamette Valley appellation. There are virtually none of these wines that I would call the equal of Bourgognes from the top growers.

Lee

[jddoyle]

This is a great article by Clive Coates (whose palate seems to correspond to my own) that goes through the lesser known villages and the better producers within those villages:

http://www.thewinenews.com/aprmay02/cover.html

We had a 2000 Girardin Maranges 1er Cru "Clos des Loyeres" at a resturant (Cafe 315 I think was the name) in Sante Fe last weekend that was $38 off the wine list and was fantastic, gobs of fruit, smooth tannins with rasberry, vanilla and game. Highly recommended.

Hope this helps,

Jay Doyle

[DaleW]

This is a great article by Clive Coates (whose palate seems to correspond to my own)/// 2000 Girardin Maranges 1er Cru "Clos des Loyeres"

Jay, thanks for posting nice article.

If you liked the 2000, you might be interested to know I ordered the '99 Girardin "Clos des Loyeres" Maranges last week from PremierCru in Emeryville for $11.99. Last time I looked they still had it.

[jddoyle]

If you liked the 2000, you might be interested to know I ordered the '99 Girardin "Clos des Loyeres" Maranges last week from PremierCru in Emeryville for $11.99. Last time I looked they still had it.

That is a great wine, if it is anything like the Baron de la Charriere '99, which is made by Girardin under the Baron name for Eric Solomon cellars. It is a big burgundy, though at the moment the acidity is out front but subsided after breathing for about 20 minutes. In fact this is the bottle that got me into wine a couple of years ago.

I plan on picking some of that up from Premier Cru along with some of the 2002 futures as well, can't beat the price.

Thanks for the tip.

Jay

[badthings]

shit, there goes next month's paycheck.

thanks everyone, and keep 'em coming.

[Scott]

I bought the 1993 D'Angerville Volnay '1er Cru' for $20 on pre-release.  The 2001 will be under $35.  That's still notably inflated, but consider what else has happened in the wine market, and it seems downright reasonable.

Lee,

not sure I would agree that's inflated, I think the basic time/value of money principal would account for a lot of that increase.

As a region burgundy's prices have remained fairly stable, certainly the profile and prices of individual producers have increased in some cases, but generally I think the region is fairly stable price wise. High in some cases, but stable.

I would be a little suspect about the 2001's on the cotes du beaune - terrible year. Whereas last year (2000) they also had hail, but they dodged the bullet. 2001 they weren't so lucky.

[LOS]

Scott

First I'll respond on the issue of price inflation. I'm pretty sure that a 75% increase over the past 8 years has well outstripped the general inflation rate. That's what I meant. We agree that in those same 8 years Burgundy has gone from being overpriced in the wider wine market to being (relatively) underpriced.

Now let me comment on the 2001 Cote de Beaune vintage. First of all, my D'Angerville example was for the purpose of illustrating the price inflation, and not intended to be an example of a good value wine (though the 2002 will almost certainly be a good value). Volnay was indeed hit very hard by hail in 2001. Most of the rest of the Cote de Beaune did not suffer as much as many believe. On my May trip, I tasted some superb wines from Pommard and Corton, and the wines from Savigny were often excellent if a bit erratic. All these from top producers, of course. But in the same cellars, the Volnays stood out as underachievers. I did not taste much red Chassagne or St Aubin, and cannot comment on those.

Lee

[Scott]

Scott

First I'll respond on the issue of price inflation.  I'm pretty sure that a 75% increase over the past 8 years has well outstripped the general inflation rate.  That's what I meant.  We agree that in those same 8 years Burgundy has gone from being overpriced in the wider wine market to being (relatively) underpriced. 

Now let me comment on the 2001 Cote de Beaune vintage.  First of all, my D'Angerville example was for the purpose of illustrating the price inflation, and not intended to be an example of a good value wine (though the 2002 will almost certainly be a good value).  Volnay was indeed hit    very hard by hail in 2001.  Most of the rest of the Cote de Beaune did not suffer as much as many believe.  On my May trip, I tasted some superb wines from Pommard and Corton, and the wines from Savigny were often excellent if a bit erratic.  All these from top producers, of course.  But in the same cellars, the Volnays stood out as underachievers.  I did not taste much red Chassagne or St Aubin, and cannot comment on those. 

Lee

Lee,

I agree if you put the 75% in those terms, but relative to everyone, new economies etc. I stil count that as stable.

line it up across other regions etc. I think the results will confirm that.

Very happy that you enjoyed your Cotes du Beaune's but I have to disagree. We were very unimpressed with the showing this year. We bring in Montille & Lafarge, and generally the skin tannins are too coarse, the fruit profile lacks a dimension, and just down in concentration.

Prices rose 5 - 10% above 2000 also which was odd.

[bobferdon]

Look for

St. Romain Rouge

Chassagne Montrachet Rouge

Chorey le Beaune Rouge

Chorey is a great little village producing good $18 Pinot's

Sometimes sold as Cote de Beaune Villages.

[tcizma]

Re: price inflation. We can all !@#$%& and moan about the prices, but the fact is we ( or somebody ) are still buying the wines at those prices. As long as we are, what producer or distributor in their right mind would lower them?

What about Cru Beaujolais ? Potel-Aviron made a number of stunning examples in 2000 for a fraction of what wines made from the same grapes sold for under different labels.

[badthings]

I think there are many good red Burgundies under $25 that can be found with just a bit of effort. I would much rather drink these wines than many new world pinot noirs.

Frank Prial begs to differ in today's Times.

I have been "working" on this question since Craig's original post -- results coming soon.

[LOS]

I think there are many good red Burgundies under $25 that can be found with just a bit of effort. I would much rather drink these wines than many new world pinot noirs.

Frank Prial begs to differ in today's Times.

I have been "working" on this question since Craig's original post -- results coming soon.

Did you read Prial's original piece on the under-25$ burgundies? They seem to have been plucked from the shelves at random.

So what Prial's really 'proving' here is that hand-picked 40$-and-up domestic pinots are generally better wines than luck-of-the-draw under-$25 burgundies. BFD.

As to the question of $25 burgundies in general, the results are long in: if you have access to a wide enough selection, you will do very well indeed if you choose well. Unfortunately, the continuing slide of the dollar may change that, and soon.

[cdh]

Did you read Prial's original piece on the under-25$ burgundies?  They seem to have been plucked from the shelves at random. 

So what Prial's really 'proving' here is that hand-picked 40$-and-up domestic pinots are generally better wines than luck-of-the-draw under-$25 burgundies.  BFD. 

As to the question of $25 burgundies in general, the results are long in:  if you have access to a wide enough selection, you will do very well indeed if you choose well.  Unfortunately, the continuing slide of the dollar may change that, and soon.

Don't know what article you're talking about, but the one linked to in this thread mentioned none of the under $25 burgundies by name... the whole lot was dismissed out of hand. But he did go through 25 of them and claims not to have picked a winner in the bunch. That says something about how frequent the particular needles we're looking for occur within the haystack. Sure good sub$25 french pinot noirs exist... just be prepared to blow a lot of $$$ going through the haystack looking for the needles... assuming you have access to the whole haystack... which those of us in some ass-backward states most deinitely do not.

[LOS]

Did you read Prial's original piece on the under-25$ burgundies?  They seem to have been plucked from the shelves at random. 

So what Prial's really 'proving' here is that hand-picked 40$-and-up domestic pinots are generally better wines than luck-of-the-draw under-$25 burgundies.  BFD. 

As to the question of $25 burgundies in general, the results are long in:  if you have access to a wide enough selection, you will do very well indeed if you choose well.  Unfortunately, the continuing slide of the dollar may change that, and soon.

Don't know what article you're talking about, but the one linked to in this thread mentioned none of the under $25 burgundies by name... the whole lot was dismissed out of hand. But he did go through 25 of them and claims not to have picked a winner in the bunch. That says something about how frequent the particular needles we're looking for occur within the haystack. Sure good sub$25 french pinot noirs exist... just be prepared to blow a lot of $$$ going through the haystack looking for the needles... assuming you have access to the whole haystack... which those of us in some ass-backward states most deinitely do not.

What I'm referring to as the 'original article' is the article in which Prial and his tasting group taste through a number of under-25$ burgundies, and generally find them lacking. Prial alludes to that older article in the article linked to above. That original article is no longer available in full online, unfortunately. See http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html...DA00894DB404482 for the abstract, or

http://www.myspeakerscorner.com/forum/inde...4477&mid=373438 to see the Wine Lovers Page deconstruction of the article.

As for your local wine selection, it's too bad that so few US states are reciprocal. I'm fortunate enough to live in one that is.

[winebill]

Faiveley's Mercurey's are great value. Most are under $25.00 a bottle and are well made.

from Clive Coates:

MERCUREY, DOMAINE DE LA CROIX JACQUELET, 1999

"Less advanced than the Villeranges. But with very good depth and potential. Ripe fruit. Good grip. Plenty of substance underneath. Slightly fuller than the above. Slightly more tannin. Slightly more to it, as you would expect. Very good plus. From 2004."

This was retailing recently for $ 15.00 a bottle ! Even at $20.00 it's a steal