The Great Pastrami & Smoked Meat Experiment

fifi · September 7, 2003

1/2" is considered a heavy smoke ring in most of the stuff I've read.

Last year, I was in Hawaii. On The Big Island, we stopped in the little town of Pahoa (I think) and spotted a BBQ place. I didn't hold out much hope. Boy was I surprised. I watched the guy slice off the meat from a brisket flat. That sucker was smoke ring red all the way through! The juice was glistening as he sliced. I had never seen anything like that so I started asking nosy questions. He said it went for about 18 hours (for the flat only) using kiawe (pronounced ki-AH-vay) wood at 180-200. I think kiawe is the same thing as mesquite. I would have thought that the smoke would be too strong but it wasn't. That was some of the best brisket I have EVER eaten.

hwilson41 · September 7, 2003

Fifi;

I watched the guy slice off the meat from a brisket flat. That sucker was smoke ring red all the way through!

That is truly amazing. I'm a native Texan, and grew up eating barbecue, mostly from Angelo's on the north side of Ft Worth. I've never seen a smoke ring penetrate all the way through the flat. Then again, they smoke the brisket whole and then separate the point and the flat.

He said it went for about 18 hours (for the flat only) using kiawe (pronounced ki-AH-vay) wood at 180-200. I think kiawe is the same thing as mesquite. I would have thought that the smoke would be too strong but it wasn't.

Both Kiawe and Mesquite are genus Prosopis, although different species (I'm a wood guy), so once again you're on the right track. I too would have thought it would be overpowering. Maybe time for a trip to Hawaii, which spouseperson would think is a teriffic idea. :biggrin: Thanks for the info.

THW

VivreManger · September 8, 2003

I have done duck, chicken, and turkey in a Weber grill, with hard wood charcoal, and hickory chunks, indirect heat, probably for about 2 to 3 hours, at probably around 250 to 320, and gotten the telltale ring.

I am less certain about brisket since I have done that less frequently, but I think I got comparable results for longer time.

Chef Fowke · September 8, 2003

Just slipping a little closer to topic....

Has anyone ever seen a 'smoke ring' on a piece of pastrami?

I am guessing (educated) that the nitrates are restricted from causing the chemical reaction with the protein in the pastrami due to the saltpeter just as the saltpeter stops the discoloration of the meat during brining.

Any scientists in the thread who can explain this?

Fat Guy · September 8, 2003

Has anyone ever seen a 'smoke ring' on a piece of pastrami?

Not I.

jackal10 · September 8, 2003

Any scientists in the thread who can explain this?

I guess the saltpetre will convert the myoglobin to nitrated form (pink). It will then not be available to react with the smoke. Providing the piece of meat is fully brined so that the cure has penetrated to the centre, you won't get a smoke ring, apart from some coloration where tars have been deposited, and some Maillard reaction colour on the outside. You sometimes see, as a fault, a patch of uncured meat in the centre of thick parts of not fully cured meat, but too far from the outside for the smoke to penetrate

FoodZealot · September 8, 2003

I'm not a scientist, but my understanding of the smoke ring phenomena is that it only occurs in raw meat exposed to smoke, up to a particular temperature. For the depth/thicknes of the smoke ring, it's not the length of time that it's been smoked, unless it's under that temperature - thus you may see cold smoked items (around 100 degrees or so) that have the reddish cast all the way through.

I believe that brining does not stop the smoke ring, but something with saltpeter in it would, as it is essentially fully cured, or "cooked".

~Tad

FoodMan · September 15, 2003

Chef Fowke-

Is there going to be a scaled down recipe (6-8 servings) for us non-bulk-purchasing-folk?? After seeing that pic you posted, I have to try some pastrami making at home.

FM

fifi · September 16, 2003

Any scientists in the thread who can explain this?
I guess the saltpetre will convert the myoglobin to nitrated form (pink). It will then not be available to react with the smoke. Providing the piece of meat is fully brined so that the cure has penetrated to the centre, you won't get a smoke ring, apart from some coloration where tars have been deposited, and some Maillard reaction colour on the outside. You sometimes see, as a fault, a patch of uncured meat in the centre of thick parts of not fully cured meat, but too far from the outside for the smoke to penetrate

SSB checking in... jackal10 has it right.

fifi · September 16, 2003

Fifi;
I watched the guy slice off the meat from a brisket flat. That sucker was smoke ring red all the way through!
That is truly amazing. I'm a native Texan, and grew up eating barbecue, mostly from Angelo's on the north side of Ft Worth. I've never seen a smoke ring penetrate all the way through the flat. Then again, they smoke the brisket whole and then separate the point and the flat.
He said it went for about 18 hours (for the flat only) using kiawe (pronounced ki-AH-vay) wood at 180-200. I think kiawe is the same thing as mesquite. I would have thought that the smoke would be too strong but it wasn't.
Both Kiawe and Mesquite are genus Prosopis, although different species (I'm a wood guy), so once again you're on the right track. I too would have thought it would be overpowering. Maybe time for a trip to Hawaii, which spouseperson would think is a teriffic idea. Thanks for the info.
THW

Thanks for the wood info. I was wondering about that. It tasted like mesquite, just not as strong. I am a native Texan as well. I have never seen anything like this either. And I have eaten in just about every BBQ joint here in Houston and in central Texas as well.

FoodZealot PM'd me about the place. Then I actually found a card that I had hidden in my billfold. The place is Big Jake's Island BBQ & Catering. The little restaurant we ate at is in Pahoa. That is on the Hilo side of the Big Island. (Hilo side is my favorite place.) You can't miss it as it is on the main drag of Pahoa. Not much of a drag so you don't really need an address. The card lists a PO Box in Kailua-Kona but I don't know if they have a place there. Strange, because Kailua-Kona is a long way from Pahoa. The name on the card is James Newlon and he wrote down a phone number... 808-965-7427

I think that for the good of the eGullet community, you are really obligated to go to Hawaii and research this phenomenon. We await your report. :biggrin:

Chef Fowke · October 2, 2003

The experiment is not over yet!

The plate has arrived and is three days into the dry curing (80% kosher salt, 10% sugar, 10% coriander seed, cloves, bay leaf, garlic rub --> with a tablespoon of saltpeter). Tomorrow I will wash it and coat it with a peppercorn-coriander crust. I will weight it down for 24 hours and then slow smoke it for 8 hours (with cherry wood this time). By Saturday or Sunday it should be in the steamer for three hours!

Pastrami Special on Sunday’s brunch at Joe Fortes

Pan · October 2, 2003

That looks like good pastrami!

Just FYI, I've followed this entire story ever since post #1. I wish I could taste the results, but hey, at least if I can't be in Vancouver, I'm in New York within an easy walk of Katz's. :smile: :smile:

Chef Fowke · October 2, 2003

That looks like good pastrami!
Just FYI, I've followed this entire story ever since post #1. I wish I could taste the results, but hey, at least if I can't be in Vancouver, I'm in New York within an easy walk of Katz's. :smile:

Does anyone know the status of the Canadian beef embargo into the USA? I would be happy to ship a few pounds of pastrami to NYC for you and Fat Guy to sample if it is legal.

In return I need someone back east to send me some mustard from London, Ontario! This is the best of the best!!!

Canada's Best Deli

Well worth the trip. Everyone who loves smoked meat should make the pilgrimage. It stands up to Katz's!!

John Braise · October 2, 2003

Chef Fowke, you're truly a credit to Pastronomy.

Chef Fowke · October 3, 2003

I am not sure about the dry brining method. I washed the meat and soaked it to remove the excess salt today. I was looking at the colour and the meat appears to be 'damaged' by the brining unlike the results from the wet brining that seemed to be a lot gentler on the tissue.

I will smoke it tomorrow and get back with the results.

Chef Fowke · October 4, 2003

A very reliable source contacted me today and told me that he knows where the Pastrami at Katz Deli in NYC is made. Rumor has it that it is located in Seattle!

I am packing up the wife and heading down on Tuesday to investigate....

I did do a little research and came across a super article:

An American History of Pastrami!

I will be sampling the dry cured pastrami on Sunday night....photos will be posted!

Just wish I had some real spicy deli mustard...please save me from this godless wasteland of a tropical coast without deli mustard!

Fat Guy · October 4, 2003

So we now have at least three stories on where Katz's gets its pastrami: there's the official story that one of the owners told the New York Times after the other owner had already told a different story, there's the place in Albany where the owner told me they make the pastrami for Katz's, and now we have a new Northwest theory. Very interesting. Incidentally, I was at Katz's today and for what it's worth the pastrami was, visually, a lot fattier than the Fowke pastrami.

jhlurie · October 4, 2003

Steven, did you order it extra fatty? You know the guys there (particularly the old Jewish cutter) will go from extra lean to extra fatty by request. Of course, the Jewish guy immediately bonds with you if you ask for X-Fatty.

scopra · October 4, 2003

Have a great vacation Chef Fowke. Truly deserved for a person dedicated enough to add pastrami experiments to an obviously busy schedule. I recently recieved an erroneous shipment of brisket (instead of flank) and was contemplating whether to return it or try to work with this rather interesting and unsung cut. Well serendipity strikes. While researching methods of making pastrami, I found this thread. This is my first time to eGullet and all I can say is holy cow(kosher beef)I will embark on my own pastrami experiment post haste and report my findings. Sadly, I don't have access to a Bradley Smoker. Does anyone have any suggestions for building a large cold smoker on a budget?

Fat Guy · October 4, 2003

Welcome, scopra. This guy has extensively documented the process of converting his Weber bullet into a cold smoker. I'm sure doing it on a larger scale wouldn't be too terribly different.

Jhlurie, I was with a group that insisted on getting table service, so there was no opportunity to customize the order in any meaningful way (I've found that with waiter service, all special requests are pretty much ignored). So what I got was just the random selection. But three people had pastrami and all of it was laced with more fat than the photos I'm seeing here.

Toliver · October 4, 2003

Welcome to eGullet, scopra!

scopra · October 5, 2003

I have some pure sodium nitrate and was wondering if anyone had any advice on how to ensure the proper ratio in a wet brine. I am used to working with pre-mixed pate salt and am leary about the negative effects of this powerfull oxidant. :sad:

Chef Fowke · October 5, 2003

Have a great vacation Chef Fowke. Truly deserved for a person dedicated enough to add pastrami experiments to an obviously busy schedule. I recently recieved an erroneous shipment of brisket (instead of flank) and was contemplating whether to return it or try to work with this rather interesting and unsung cut. Well serendipity strikes. While researching methods of making pastrami, I found this thread. This is my first time to eGullet and all I can say is holy cow(kosher beef)I will embark on my own pastrami experiment post haste and report my findings. Sadly, I don't have access to a Bradley Smoker. Does anyone have any suggestions for building a large cold smoker on a budget?

Wait!!!!

I am going to cut into the dry cured pastrami on Sunday. Originally I thought the dry brine was harsh on the meat...but now I see that the brining, smoking and steaming has beautifully rendered the fat into the meat. I took a small sampling tonight and the meat looked stupendous!!!

As for the smoking it is easy to change a BBQ, metal box or old refrigerator into a smoker for very little $$$ Google has 1000's of ideas and I can help with a few.

Give me a day before you do anything with your meat! I do not want you to use and abuse it.

I will post ASAP.

Chef Fowke · October 5, 2003

Note: coming out of the steamer tonight the pastrami had a much deeper, redder colour using the dry brining system then the wet brine....

Details to follow after it is pressed for 12 hours and re-steamed before serving...

(as per question in other thread Colour (Canada) = Color (USA))

scopra · October 6, 2003

Chef Fowke; I await further recommendations. Do you have a local source for saltpeter?

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