Chef's Table.

[Andy Lynes]

I call an end to this.

I thank you.

[tommy]

me I call it an apt response to a thinly veiled attack

Others can call it what they want

S

you're out of your head to think that my comments were an attack on you or anyone else in particular

later.

edited to reduce any misunderstandings.

Edited May 16, 2003 by tommy (log)

[Simon Majumdar]

S

Edited May 16, 2003 by Simon Majumdar (log)

[bourdain]

"Name one" responds Majumdar--at light speed--illustrating better than I ever could, my assertion that his suspicion--if not contempt--for chefs is instinctive.

I'll do better: The following chefs are actually nice people with interesting things to say--and not just to visiting chefs getting "special treatment" :

Ferran Adria

Juan Mari Arzak

Thomas Keller

Eric Ripert

Tetsuya Wakuda

The list goes on--and could stretch on endlessly. Simon seems to feel that gouging, deceiving, bamboozling and anus-stretching are vital, even primary functions of the majority of talented chefs. Which makes one wonder why he even bothers to go out to eat. I know of NO talented chefs who got into the business, persevered through the system, endured the heat, hours and uncertainty--so that they could one day fuck over credulous customers (though I'm sure we can all cite examples of those who indeed over time crossed over to the dark side and began talking about themselves in the third person.) Most chefs got into the business because they LIKE cooking for people--and believe it or not--making them happy. Their careers--almost always--began with the simple act of cooking for friends or family--and those tasks remain the source of great pleasure. Their social skills with their clientele may vary widely--a characteristic of their tribe--and the rigors and insecurity of their profession. But given a glass of wine, a few free moments (more likely to occur at a Chefs Table), they often revert to the kinder gentler more eager to please versions of themselves: the kid who wants nothing more than a crust of good bread and some freshly churned butter and some good, like minded--and hopefully appreciative company. There are countless examples both recorded and anecdotal of chefs' kindness and generosity to strangers, hungry travellers, customers both new and regular.

I'M supposed to be the cynic around here Majumdar! Look what you made me do!

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

Tony, while you exude that whole "everyman" thing to most of us, if we hear you're coming into our kitchens to eat we're going to fawn through the pages of your books and put together the best "all Tony" experience we can--right down to the carton of Camel unfiltereds in the flatware credenza and stock pot of simmering squirrel guts. So I don't know if you're ever going to partake of a chef's table that isn't meticulously planned as not to incur your vociferous disdain. Except maybe at Azrak's....

Personally? I don't ever want customers in my kitchen watching me work. Not that I'm not a people person (despite the swaying public opinion here)--I love sitting down with them after I'm finished berating, sweating and worrying, but to try and act like I'm not a total basketcase for the benefit of a table of well-dressed gawkers would drive me to the William Wycliff box-o-relief. I run the antithesis of the Thomas Keller carpeted waiting room kitchen. My guys look towel-whipped and pissed most of the time. The labor pool is such that I have yet to find one Grant Achatz wanting to strain my stock for minimum wage with a big teddy bear toothy grin...most of my people think that 15.00/hr is a god-given right and the fact that they only make two thirds of that causes a great deal of tension. I'm a lover AND and fighter, so I play upon that tension, feed it back and keep reminding them that they paid vacations when the quitting chatter filters its way back. But I do love those guys...they're my family....

So I say fuck a chef's table in my kitchen...

[Carlovski]

I don't think this is anything new, go down to your local indian restaurant (In the UK anyway) and there is an open kitchen - why don't more restaurants do this?

I remember as a lad being taken on a tour round the kitchen, shaping my own naan bread and putting it in the tandoor (Probably a health and safety nightmare now!) and bringing the poppadums out for my mum and dad! That's what I call a personal experience of the kitchen.

Admittedly, the main reason for the open kitchens was prejudice against 'foreign' food, and assumptions that if you couldn't see what was going on then the kitchens would be filthy, and all sorts of things would be going into the dishes, but I personally see it as a highlight.

[Lord Michael Lewis]

With their guard down and after a few glasses most will happily revert to their roots--usually a modest rural upbringing, sentimental memories of simple, unadorned country food--telling details that speak of the real origins of their style and repertoire.

Bollocks.

[Simon Majumdar]

Simon seems to feel that gouging, deceiving, bamboozling and anus-stretching are vital, even primary functions of the majority of talented chefs.

Tony, when I worked in a bookshop, a guy came in and asked for Dante in french. when I gave him the volumes he said " that's great, one of the reaosns I took french classes was to read this in the original"

That's how I feel about you. Well intentioned but misguided

You, quite rightly, defend your fellow chefs, and so you should but, how many times have you been on the knob end of a bad meal recently? Precious few I'll warrant.

can you genuinely put your hand on your heart and say that a Chef's table is some sort of altruistic exercise to give people the insight into the inner workings of the kitchen? bollocks. it is to prise a few extra shekels out of some mug punter. Bottom line. Sure they might throw in a few extra plates of foam and send the sous over a couple of times to say say " I have some lovely Salmon" but in the end it is a scam.

If you are going to get a decent meal in a restaurant, get it out in the dining room at a fair price without someone making you think they are doing you a favour or ripping you off

You ask why I bother to eat out anymore. At the high end I don't so much less and less. Why? Because the only time I want some one in white probing my anus is when I am at my proctologists

But , just when I think I am never going to have a decent meal again, someone goes and suprises me with a half decent experience and I am sucked back in as I was at RHR recently

Thank god for Fergus Henderson or the next time we meet it would have to be at an In & Out

S

[Kim WB]

To clarify, most chef's table's are located int he kitchen, with a fairly unobstructed view of the goings-ons..but are contained, temperature controlled, decorated provate rooms..usually with a wall or two of glass, and a door that closes.

I find it interesting that there are four posts on this thread form food writers, people who make their living under the asumption that there is a market of people that enjoy dining, cooking, and food enough to buy or seek out what they read..and yet don't understand the attraction of a chef's table?

Simply put, the minions to whom you write for do not have the experience in kitchens that you might have..many diners have never been in a professional kitchen. Thery are interested in a way that, often, any layman might be intrigued to learn how things "work". (And yes, many people like to feel "special"...perhaps because they have the self esteem to feel that they deserve that feeling, but I'm not going to go there).

5 years ago, my son participated in a program at John Hopkins in Maryland, for really smart kids. ( Part of the reason I get to feel special!! ) We went to the aquarium in Baltimore, , but instead of just looking at the fish, we had a tour of the "feeding stations", the diver's area, the cleaning and filtration systems...did you know that the feeding system is entirely computerized, they press a button that releases food..but that the amount of food is regulated by the amount of UNeaten food in the tank, based on the PH's and stuff in the tank?

This"behind the scenes" look made the trip memorable and special.

[KateW]

Most chefs got into the business because they LIKE cooking for people--and believe it or not--making them happy. Their careers--almost always--began with the simple act of cooking for friends or family--and those tasks remain the source of great pleasure. Their social skills with their clientele may vary widely

This describes me perfectly. I told people I was going to cooking school to learn everything I could because I love cooking for people and making them happy. People scoffed, and I'm not sure why, because after a year of school I am still here for the same reasons. My "career" started with rolling out pie dough with my mother and cooking the scraps of dough into little cookies sprinkled with cinnamon sugar. That is my first food memory.

As for the socials skills, I am lacking in that department and I fear I will never be one of those charismatic, outgoing chefs you always hear about. But I always hope to be a good person--and a good chef.

[Andy Lynes]

With their guard down and after a few glasses most will happily revert to their roots--usually a modest rural upbringing, sentimental memories of simple, unadorned country food--telling details that speak of the real origins of their style and repertoire.

Bollocks.

Nice to see a well reasoned counter-arguement. Its what eGullet has become famous for.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

To clarify, most chef's table's are located int he kitchen, with a fairly unobstructed view of the goings-ons..but are contained, temperature controlled, decorated  provate rooms..usually with a wall or two of glass, and a door that closes.

I find it interesting that there are four  posts on this thread form food writers, people who make their living under the asumption that there is a market of people that enjoy dining, cooking, and food enough to buy or seek out what they read..and yet don't understand the attraction of a chef's table?

Simply put, the minions to whom you write for do not have the experience in kitchens that you might have..many diners have never been in a professional kitchen.  Thery are interested in a way that, often, any layman might be intrigued to learn how things "work". (And yes, many people like to feel "special"...perhaps because they have the self esteem to feel that they deserve that feeling, but I'm not going to go there).

5 years ago, my son participated in a program at John Hopkins in Maryland, for really smart kids. ( Part of the reason I get to feel special!!   ) We went to the aquarium in Baltimore, , but instead of just looking at the fish, we had a tour of the "feeding stations", the diver's area, the cleaning and filtration systems...did you know that the feeding system is entirely computerized, they press a button that releases food..but that the amount of food is regulated by the amount of UNeaten food in the tank, based on the PH's and stuff in the tank?

This"behind the scenes" look made the trip memorable and special.

Kim if I'm one of the four "food writers" on your list, scratch me off...I'm a chef 60/hours a week. I know customers, and the attraction and all of that stuff first hand. Writing is a hobby. I still don't want non-checked people in my kitchen.

Edited May 16, 2003 by Chef/Writer Spencer (log)

[Simon Majumdar]

But I always hope to be a good person--and a good chef.

kate

That is great and you are certainly not the type of chef my antagonism is aimed at. Nor indeed are those who 'sell their soul" to make some cash. Hell we all have to do that

My real beef is with the chefs who do the latter but portray themselves as the former. The Chef's table in one indication of this

If it is such a selfless act on the part of the chef. if it is just to show his muse to an audince of appreciating folk, then why charge so bloody much?

perhaps, in Tony's world Chef's tables are like he describes in the same way the Queen thinks that the whole world smells of paint as there are always lackeys 10 mins ahead of her whitewashing every wall she is likely to see. I suspect, as C/W Spencer says, Tony will never eat a normal meal again, unless it is at home. Such is the badge of the tribe who attain ( if not seek out ) fame.

S

[Basildog]

An open door policy should always be the case IMHO.Our kitchen door has glass vents in it, so people can see in , wave, offer drinks to hot chefs and generally make themselves known.From the stove i can see the front door, and 5 out of my 9 tables.

We don't have the space to protect people from the noise and general buzz of the kitchen, but thats part of our charm Its good to let punters see the space we have to work in.

Most often heard comments

1) bloody hell its hot in here

2) is this it?

edit PS and when the new stove arrives, there will be guided tours on the hour,every hour!!!!

Edited May 16, 2003 by Basildog (log)

[Katherine]

It's diners who want the "restaurant kitchen as 'theme park' experience".

They don't really want to be in a working kitchen. Most of the things that go on in a place like that would not enhance the enjoyment of their meal: heat, smoke&fumes, grease, people yelling at each other and dropping things, employees running around and pushing each other out of the way...

What they want is the ultimate dining room pampering experience, located in but shielded from the kitchen, so they can have their hand held by a star chef.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

But I always hope to be a good person--and a good chef.

kate

That is great and you are certainly not the type of chef my antagonism is aimed at. Nor indeed are those who 'sell their soul" to make some cash. Hell we all have to do that

My real beef is with the chefs who do the latter but portray themselves as the former. The Chef's table in one indication of this

If it is such a selfless act on the part of the chef. if it is just to show his muse to an audince of appreciating folk, then why charge so bloody much?

perhaps, in Tony's world Chef's tables are like he describes in the same way the Queen thinks that the whole world smells of paint as there are always lackeys 10 mins ahead of her whitewashing every wall she is likely to see. I suspect, as C/W Spencer says, Tony will never eat a normal meal again, unless it is at home. Such is the badge of the tribe who attain ( if not seek out ) fame.

S

Well Simon now, I think Tony has been more than innundated with "simple" food on his tours of "duty". I mean tell me that Vietnamese family that he and Lejeunie just happened to stumble upon were ready for that pair to show up. I'm just referencing chefs tables.

Edited May 16, 2003 by Chef/Writer Spencer (log)

[Simon Majumdar]

Most often heard comments

1) bloody hell its hot in here

2) is this it?

Bloody hell, were you at Andy's wedding night as well?

S

[Basildog]

, Tony will never eat a normal meal again, unless it is at home.

Now that is bollocks

[Simon Majumdar]

But I always hope to be a good person--and a good chef.

kate

That is great and you are certainly not the type of chef my antagonism is aimed at. Nor indeed are those who 'sell their soul" to make some cash. Hell we all have to do that

My real beef is with the chefs who do the latter but portray themselves as the former. The Chef's table in one indication of this

If it is such a selfless act on the part of the chef. if it is just to show his muse to an audince of appreciating folk, then why charge so bloody much?

perhaps, in Tony's world Chef's tables are like he describes in the same way the Queen thinks that the whole world smells of paint as there are always lackeys 10 mins ahead of her whitewashing every wall she is likely to see. I suspect, as C/W Spencer says, Tony will never eat a normal meal again, unless it is at home. Such is the badge of the tribe who attain ( if not seek out ) fame.

S

Well Simon now, I think Tony has been more than innundated with "simple" food on his tours of "duty". I mean tell me that Vietnamese family that he and Lejeunie just happened to stumble upon were ready for that pair to show up. I'm just referencing chefs tables.

What with the sound man, the camera man, the food stylist, Tony's multiple PA's and the person who carries all his money. I am sure it was a down home experience

S

[Andy Lynes]

QUOTE (Basildog @ May 16 2003, 07:12 AM)

Most often heard comments

1) bloody hell its hot in here

2) is this it? 

Bloody hell, were you at Andy's wedding night as well?

S

Difficult as it may be to imagine, I danced most of my wedding night away (I was so much thinner then, I'm fatter than that now), so these comments don't strictly apply.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

QUOTE (Basildog @ May 16 2003, 07:12 AM)

Most often heard comments

1) bloody hell its hot in here

2) is this it? 

Bloody hell, were you at Andy's wedding night as well?

S

Difficult as it may be to imagine, I danced most of my wedding night away (I was so much thinner then, I'm fatter than that now), so these comments don't strictly apply.

Married=Fat

[bourdain]

IS the Chefs Table "concept" quickly becoming a popular marketing scam? Sure. No doubt. Droves of adenoidal gastro-pub chefs are no doubt constructing shrines to themselves in their already overcrowded kitchens.

And I agree with brother Spenser that most kitchens (mine for instance) would hate the idea of a bunch of gawping customers watching us scratch our balls in between orders.

But the Chefs Table originated as an informal setting for visiting chefs, cronies, special friends of the house to hang out and eat during and after service. It remains--in MANY of the better joints--a really good vantage point, venue for a unique and less formal eating experience. I know it's difficult for some here to believe that hotshot chefs actually care about you or might want to please you. Or that said hotshots might actually be nice. Spenser has already undermined his own argument by telling us of Keller's many kindnesses. While I have no doubts as to CW's stature in the industry, I'm reasonably sure Keller did not--prior to his good acts--know him by reputation. Yet he has struck up a friendly--if intermittent correspondence--and had a unique dining experience at the FL--by means of persistence and an honest expression of interest. Keller responded with generosity and kindness.

"Bollocks" says Lord Michael. Specifically to my cuddly description of misty eyed three stars, waxing nostalgic over Mama's table and the simple pleasures of bread . Yet this is a constant theme in every late night conversation I have ever had with nearly every culinary guru I've met. Why is this so unbelievable? Nearly every Michelin chef came from extremely humble circumstances. Before donning the ill-fitting suit of public personna they cooked egg and chips for Dad (Donovan Cooke), helped Mom at the famly bistro before feeding the dogs and denuding bones as "marmitons" (Pepin), joined the family business (Arzak), were "sold into slavery"(Palladin). "I am a peasant" (Raymond Blanc), started as a dishwasher(Tetsuya) Ask any for their primary inspiration and you'll get "Mum" as the answer. Ask what they'd eat as a last meal and you'll get--always--a simple nostalgic answer.

Approached in a straightforward, guileless way, a surprising number of chefs will respond in kind. Chefs LIKE to have regular customers--and if they're not complete twats, demanding or snobbish, will happily (over time) let down their hair and let them "in" to one degree or another. There IS, of course, traditionallly, an adversarial element--a basic paranoia and suspicion, an instinct to put on a show and a persona for the dining room. For many years, that was what was expected of us--that we were flighty, egotistical, condescending, melodramatic, histrionic tyrants. And those who continue to put on that game face before entering the dining room are working within an ages old tradition. Simply put--a lot of customers WANT to believe that the chef is prickly, rude and dangerously unstable. They think it's cute. Especially in England where one is often rewarded for this type of behavior.

I'm saying it does not HAVE to be this way. That the chefs table experience, with a little advance work, a genuine interest in both food and cook, a little diplomacy--can be a rewarding one.

I'd be interested in hearing from any civilians here of any random acts of kindness on the part of chefs.

Or are we all complete bastards?

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

IS the Chefs Table "concept" quickly becoming a popular marketing scam? Sure. No doubt. Droves of adenoidal gastro-pub chefs are no doubt constructing shrines to themselves in their already overcrowded kitchens.

And I agree with brother Spenser that most kitchens (mine for instance) would hate the idea of a bunch of gawping customers watching us scratch our balls in between orders.

But the Chefs Table originated as an informal setting for visiting chefs, cronies, special friends of the house to hang out and eat during and after service. It remains--in MANY of the better joints--a really good vantage point, venue for a unique and less formal eating experience. I know it's difficult for some here to believe that hotshot chefs actually care about you or  might want to please you. Or that said hotshots might actually be nice. Spenser has already undermined his own argument by telling us of Keller's many kindnesses. While I have no doubts as to CW's stature in the industry, I'm reasonably sure Keller did not--prior to his good acts--know him by reputation. Yet he has struck up a friendly--if intermittent correspondence--and had a unique dining experience at the FL--by means of persistence and an honest expression of interest. Keller responded with generosity and kindness.

"Bollocks" says Lord Michael. Specifically to my cuddly description of misty eyed three stars, waxing nostalgic over Mama's table and the simple pleasures of bread . Yet this is a constant theme in every late night conversation I have ever had with nearly every culinary guru I've met. Why is this so unbelievable? Nearly every  Michelin chef came from extremely humble circumstances. Before donning the ill-fitting suit of public personna they cooked egg and chips for Dad (Donovan Cooke), helped Mom at the famly bistro before feeding the dogs and denuding bones as "marmitons" (Pepin), joined the family business (Arzak), were "sold into slavery"(Palladin). "I am a peasant" (Raymond Blanc), started as a dishwasher(Tetsuya) Ask any for their primary inspiration and you'll get "Mum" as the answer. Ask what they'd eat as a last meal and you'll get--always--a simple nostalgic answer.

Approached in a straightforward, guileless way, a surprising number of chefs will respond in kind. Chefs LIKE to have regular customers--and if they're not complete twats, demanding or snobbish, will happily (over time) let down their hair and let them "in" to one degree or another. There IS, of course, traditionallly, an adversarial element--a basic paranoia and suspicion, an instinct to put on a show and a persona for the dining room. For many years, that was what was expected of us--that we were flighty, egotistical, condescending, melodramatic, histrionic tyrants. And those who continue to put on that game face before entering the dining room are working within an ages old tradition. Simply put--a lot of customers WANT to believe that the chef is prickly, rude and dangerously unstable. They think it's cute. Especially in England where one is often rewarded for this type of behavior.

I'm saying it does not HAVE to be this way. That the chefs table experience, with a little advance work, a genuine interest in both food and cook, a little diplomacy--can be a rewarding one.

I'd be interested in hearing from any civilians here of any random acts of kindness on the part of chefs.

Or are we all complete bastards?

It's an underminable arguement based on the bias desires of a base chef to remain caged from the other animals. It's a defense mechanism to me, the swinging door, which allows me to be myself. Open that door and instantly I have to turn on the charm...What a paradoxical thing to have to do while yelling at a drunk cook...Customers have their own room....

See you folks...

[Simon Majumdar]

Or are we all complete bastards?

Out of the mouths of babes and TV personalities

I have to admit once that a chef did a very good deed for me

They made a decent meal, served it properly, didn't charge me my right testicle for it and stayed in the kitchen

My hero

S

[Bux]

"Name one" responds Majumdar--at light speed--illustrating better than I ever could, my assertion that his suspicion--if not contempt--for chefs is instinctive.

Tony, don't take it personally. Majumdar probably doesn't even consider you a chef. I am however, inclined to agree with your analysis. From the first first few posts in this thread , I got the immediate feeling I was in a group that secretly hated fine cooking and those who took it seriously as well as those who prepared it. Jon Tseng restored my faith in eGullet. It might just be fun to watch a kitchen in action. I believe he meant it might actually increase ones understanding and appreciation of what goes into the preparation of a meal. "Fun" in the way that a movie such as Dinner Rush might be more interesting and illuminating to someone who liked dining in restaurants.

I've never dined in a kitchen at a chef's table, although I've shared a bottle of wine with a chef at his private table overlooking his kitchen. Come to think of it, I had my back to the view of the kitchen. I wonder if that was because the chef wanted to see the kitchen or if I was just more focused on the chef and the people I was with than the kitchen. I can think of three reasons why I might not be inclined to seek a table in the kitchen and none of them are over riding, nor do I feel any of them should be someone else's reasons.

1) I really enjoy the social and sociological aspects of a dining room. I enjoy watching the show people eating. I enjoy seeing the food arrive from the kitchen and being served. I enjoy seeing how people dress. Once, in my youth, we were in Paris at the end of a trip with a bit of cash in my pocket. We decided to splurge and try our first starred restaurant in Paris. We called for a last minute reservation and were offered a salon particulair which we accepted, but I regretted not experiencing what I felt was the restaurant.

2) I've been through a number of top kitchens here and in Europe. I've had polite and formal tours of the kitchen before and after meals and I've been in busy kitchens talking to chefs dodging plate and waiters during service. It's been fascinating and if I one's only option to see a kitchen in operation was a meal at the chef's table, I wouldn't dissuade them.

3) I've thought it might be distracting, although as Jon reminded me, I've often craned my neck to see what was going on in an open kitchen. Apparently, I don't really mind the distraction.

4) I've not considered the many positive factors Tony mentions. Here I suppose, those factors are dependent on a personal relationship and thus probably not really germane to the conversation. Having a glass of wine with the chef at his table is not something one can reserve on demand and many of the perqs he describes are not those that come with a kitchen table that can be reserved by anyone.

I should add that in spite of the fact that there are more than enough jerks in the trade, most of the chef's I've met are real people and exceptionally decent as well as thrilled to cook for people who really enjoy their food and while a friendship may get me a few more grains of caviar as a garnish, the really close contacts are more likely to get me a surprise dish of tête de veau from a top kichen. Many of the top chefs have down to earth roots they enjoy sharing.