Spices: For or against?

[Stone]

One of the best Indian meals I had was in Pokhara, Nepal. We shared four "dark" curry dishes, and at the end of the meal, we all were surprised that each had distinctly different flavors.

[Tonyfinch]

To be honest Wilfred I'm rapidly losing interest in what Steve thinks. On this thread he's shown himself up as knowing nothing whatever about Indian food and WORSE, being totally unwilling (I now think unable) to listen to those who do know and learn anything from them. I've heard that as a rule Indian food "overspices", that it "overcooks" the meat, that spicing "masks" the taste of ingredients, that Indian food consists of meat cooked in "gravy", that all these wet meat and gravy dishes taste the same, that those who love Asian food only say they do to be "politically correct"........I mean I wouldn't expect this level of ignorance from people who don't take any interest in food at all let alone one who never misses an opportunity to tell us that he counts himself among the fine dining elite of the world.

Sorry but after a while reasoned discussion fails and it all ends up sounding like nothing more than the kind of prejudiced bollocks you can hear every Saturday night down The Dog and Duck in Canning Town,and I for one don't have to listen to it there and I've finally realised that I don't need it here either.

Edited March 20, 2003 by Tonyfinch (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

You guys keep retreading old ground. I think I've been pretty clear in my assertions.

1. Indian food, in restaurants in the west, is almost always overcooked and overspiced

2. Even if it wasn't overcooked and overspiced, Indian cuisine, from what people on this thread have been saying, revolves around various spicing routines. I do not believe that western palates will ever accept that as a high form of cooking. And I am not saying they won't accept it as good cooking, or even delicious cooking. A high form of cooking. I think that cuisine forever hereafter, on a global basis, will be about complex tasting proteins and vegetables. This statement for example, even holds true for much of modern Spanish cuisine. Personally, I do not believe that chefs who extract the essence of corn from canned corn, will ever make a cuisine that is popular and accepted among high end diners other then being an intellectual curiosity.

3. Globalized dining will adopt what I would call more of a Westernized use of spices. Of course this will vary based on type of cuisine. And cuisines like Southwestern and Thai will always show more heat then other cuisines. But refined and overly hot do not go together in my opinion. Of course this does not mean that chefs will not assertively spice things. Just go to Union Pacific and you will see Rocco spice things more assertively then other chefs in town. But it always stays this side of too highly spiced which for all intensive purposes means the dish still revolves around the way the protein tastes, and not how well he has sauced it.

These last two are just predictions. But I don't have much problem making them. And if I'm wrong, so be it. I do not have a lot invested in this theory other then to say that while Diwan is a good place to eat, it is also for the most part uninteresting. And The Bread Bar was a good place to eat, but had something interesting about it. And it isn't that every new place or new style is interesting. I ate at La Broche the other night and that is space age Spanish cuisine, most uninteresting as far as I'm concerned. So to me, when I say "interesting," I mean, captured my imagination.

wonder what your reaction would be if a report proved that, in fact, the subtlies in wine that the wealthy, elite tasters have been touting for generations is all bunk and that, actually, they all taste pretty much the same, but when "experts" get in a room together they all follow the crowd and nod their heads in agreement. Your response, of course, would be that the report is silly because you and all the people you believe to have "taste" can taste all the currants, leather, tar, cigar-boxes, and gravel in the wines. You would probably think that the people who can't taste the differences in fine wine are . . . well, I'm sure you have a word for it.

Stone - But this point, helps me make mine. Wine collecting is an unsual hobby. It's not for every person. But cuisine is supposed to be for every person. Let me see if I can illustrate this point better.

I can drink wine for two reasons. I can approach it with my collectors hat on where the purpose of my drinking it is to differentiate between vineyard sites and how producers vinify their wines. But I can take the gourmand approach and drink for the purpose of having wine with my meal. Personally, I am much more interested in the latter then I am in the former. Not that I don't keep myself apprised about the former. But my main interest in wine is as part of the meal, not as a stand alone (as an aside, this is why I do not post very much on the wine boards anymore as most people there are more interested in the former.) So while I'm very happy to say that the wine I'm drinking is a great expression of X vineyard, I don't get carried away with it. Distinguishing those sites is not the purpose of my meal. It is only relevant if it enhances the proteins and vegetables I am eating.

You see it's really the same approach as I am bringing to spicing routines. I'm all for the most complex spicing routines in the world. And I'm all for the most complex wines. But I do not want my meal to revolve around either of those things. I want those things to enhance my meal. Of course, there are wines that are so good and so immediate that they overtake the cuisine. But I do not believe I will ever find a spicing routine, or anyone who is expert enough to move me that way. Maybe I am wrong, and that is what certain people here are talking about and I haven't experienced it. But the only way to make me a believer is to bring me somewhere that does it. This line of argument started out with Fat Guy asserting that Diwan's spicing is a good example. Most people seem to disagree with that though. In fact, there has been very little agreement as to where to experience that ither then "India," a rather large and blurry answer.

Miss J - Sory about my misuse of the word garvy. It was just an easy one. But if it mkakes you feel any better, in certain places in the U.S. they call Italian sty;e tomato sauce red gravy.

[Wilfrid]

1. Wrong. New York, maybe. In "the west", no.

2. Nothing fits that description, then, other than the avant garde of French haute cuisine, right?

3. I don't know what "globalized" dining is if it's not just dining everywhere - in which case you are indeed wrong, as highly spiced cuisines are hugely popular. Is it the kind of homogenous dining one finds at four and five star hotels around the world? You're probably right there, but it's a depressingly banal yardstick.

[Ron Johnson]

And I am not saying they won't accept it as good cooking, or even delicious cooking. A high form of cooking.

Steve,

Please explain the difference between "delicious cooking" and "high form of cooking."

Can delicious cooking taste better than high form of cooking?

[SobaAddict70]

Maybe I am wrong, and that is what certain people here are talking about and I haven't experienced it. But the only way to make me a believer is to bring me somewhere that does it. This line of argument started out with Fat Guy asserting that Diwan's spicing is a good example. Most people seem to disagree with that though. In fact, there has been very little agreement as to where to experience that ither then "India," a rather large and blurry answer.

Then perhaps you need to start educating your palate along those lines. Maybe you need to experience food at Indian restaurants in London and in Kuala Lumpur and elsewhere in order to see what we're talking about. Heck, maybe you could spend a couple of days in India (when things have died down of course).

If, after all of that you still find that Indian food is overspiced and overcooked, well at least I and some other people can rest easy that you've managed to expand your horizons and not resorted to making the sort of assumptions that are the equivalent of a bull moving about in a china shop.

The peanut gallery has spoken.

Soba

[Gavin Jones]

Well as this is now in empirical terms we have an experiment.

Will the population of the Indian sub-continent and China (I think we're up to what, 1.75bn people or so?) switch their preferred eating to lumps of protein with less spicing?

Considering the rapidity of social change in these places we can run this for 20? years. Then we'll know. End of thread.

Actually I think that the highly evolved restaurant dining characteristic of a few big cities is essentially an aberration.

This is because the systematic risks associated with such agglomerations of population will overwhelm the capacity of the social infrastructure to absorb such risks and a less intensively developed civil structure than the archetypical late 19thC city (Paris, NY, London, Berlin, Shanghai, Calcutta) will emerge. We will all end up eating Italian, Chinese, Indian rather than French.

The pleasure of dining on Escoffier's dead residues has surely a limited span.

[hollywood]

You guys keep retreading old ground.

Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle. Mr. Kettle, Mr. Pot.

[Xanthippe]

The opining continues. Amazing . . .

When do you all find time to eat???!?

[snowangel]

Isn't steak all about the MEAT? Remember, meat is good.

edit: mouse trouble. thought this was going to the steak toppings thread.

Edited March 21, 2003 by snowangel (log)

[nerissa]

1. Indian food, in restaurants in the west, is almost always overcooked and overspiced

2. Even if it wasn't overcooked and overspiced, Indian cuisine, from what people on this thread have been saying, revolves around various spicing routines. I do not believe that western palates will ever accept that as a high form of cooking. And I am not saying they won't accept it as good cooking, or even delicious cooking. A high form of cooking. I think that cuisine forever hereafter, on a global basis, will be about complex tasting proteins and vegetables. This statement for example, even holds true for much of modern Spanish cuisine. Personally, I do not believe that chefs who extract the essence of corn from canned corn, will ever make a cuisine that is popular and accepted among high end diners other then being an intellectual curiosity.

3. Globalized dining will adopt what I would call more of a Westernized use of spices. Of course this will vary based on type of cuisine. And cuisines like Southwestern and Thai will always show more heat then other cuisines. But refined and overly hot do not go together in my opinion. Of course this does not mean that chefs will not assertively spice things. Just go to Union Pacific and you will see Rocco spice things more assertively then other chefs in town. But it always stays this side of too highly spiced which for all intensive purposes means the dish still revolves around the way the protein tastes, and not how well he has sauced it.

These last two are just predictions. But I don't have much problem making them. And if I'm wrong, so be it. I do not have a lot invested in this theory other then to say that while Diwan is a good place to eat, it is also for the most part uninteresting. And The Bread Bar was a good place to eat, but had something interesting about it. And it isn't that every new place or new style is interesting. I ate at La Broche the other night and that is space age Spanish cuisine, most uninteresting as far as I'm concerned. So to me, when I say "interesting," I mean, captured my imagination.

....

You see it's really the same approach as I am bringing to spicing routines. I'm all for the most complex spicing routines in the world. And I'm all for the most complex wines. But I do not want my meal to revolve around either of those things. I want those things to enhance my meal. Of course, there are wines that are so good and so immediate that they overtake the cuisine. But I do not believe I will ever find a spicing routine, or anyone who is expert enough to move me that way. Maybe I am wrong, and that is what certain people here are talking about and I haven't experienced it. But the only way to make me a believer is to bring me somewhere that does it. This line of argument started out with Fat Guy asserting that Diwan's spicing is a good example. Most people seem to disagree with that though. In fact, there has been very little agreement as to where to experience that ither then "India," a rather large and blurry answer.

Miss J - Sory about my misuse of the word garvy. It was just an easy one. But if it mkakes you feel any better, in certain places in the U.S. they call Italian sty;e tomato sauce red gravy.

Steve Plotnicki:

You can continue to define indian cuisine however you like it. This is a free market after all. But, you haven't even tried to differentiate between the different regional cusines, although many others have on this thread. I will keep it simple, southern indian food (with which I am more familiar *) has nothing to do with these gravies...er...sauces you talk about as being the exact same thing. ( I see your reply to Miss J below). It is about complex proteins and vegetables, except that in some regions its strictly vegetarian, and in other places it is not.

A while back, you admitted that you had never eaten good indian food in a private home. This is telling, and I hope someday you have the experience.

Why can't you just admit that you prefer French food, which is not exactly a crime in these parts, rather than saying it is "overspiced" when you do not seem to have the experience to understand how and where balance is achieved in indian cuisine?

*Edit: "than" deleted

Edited March 21, 2003 by nerissa (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Why can't you just admit that you prefer French food, which is not exactly a crime in these parts, rather than saying it is "overspiced" when you do not seem to have the experience to understand how and where balance is achieved in indian cuisine?

Nerissa - The problem with your statement is that it isn't that I don't believe that balance isn't achieved in Indian cuisine, I just don't believe that even when it is balanced perfectly it has the same validity (at the fancy restaurant level) as other cuisines have. I don't think the techniques they employ are as sophisticated as what other cuisines employ. Take for example the Crab Meat Dumpling that we were served at the Sweet n Tart Chinese banquet. It was constructed from egg white. Yet it formed a seal around slices of crab meat and when the dumpling was submerged in soup, it extracted broth from the crab and it filled the dumpling. Now that is a sophisticated technique. And the broth was delicate and smoky. It made for a terrific dish. Show me an equivelent to that in Indian cuisine? Spicing routines and the type of balance you are describing are not equivelents IMO.

You see it has nothing to do with good Indian food. It has to do with modern cuisine. We keep talking past each other. I hav no qualms with Indian cuisine and I am sure the home cooking is as good as you say it is. But I am talking about fancy restaurant cuisine. And like Adam said, many cultures do not have such an animal. So it isn't that I prefer French cuisine, I prefer any cuisine that has created that level of culinary technique. French, Japanese, modern Spanish, they are better cuisines in my book because they are modern and innovative. But there are other cuisines where in spite of the fact that the food is delicious, they are in a time warp.

Wilfrid - No I think my statement is true for everywhere in the U.S., and although it's better in London, in my experience it isn't by that much. Also as I told Nerissa, I can be describing Japanese cuisine, modern Spanish cuisine, even westernized Indian cuisine like Zaika or Tabla. And globalized dining is in reality the type of restaurant Michelin, or a local equivelent, would rate highly.

Please explain the difference between "delicious cooking" and "high form of cooking."

Ron - Well let's see. A bowl of chicken noodle soup at Katz's Delicatessen might be delicious, but the double rich chicken stock they poach Foie gras in at Prune, which is almost directly across the street from Katz's, or which they use as a base for that great Creamed Chestnut dish they serve, is a higher form of cuisine. They just put more time and energy into it at Prune and it tastes like it.

Will the population of the Indian sub-continent and China (I think we're up to what, 1.75bn people or so?) switch their preferred eating to lumps of protein with less spicing

Gavin - I keep talking about high cuisine and you guys keep talking about daily cuisine. 1.75 billion Chinese will not change the definition of high cuisine. If we were talking about art, they will not change what art we display in museums. The standard will always be high art. And if Chinese artists are to be displayed, they will have the same burden as everyone else. Cuisine is the same. High cuisine will always be what goes on in temples of gastronomy, regardless of culture. Currently, the only high cuisines are French, Japanese and Spanish. Maybe there is a Chinese high cuisine but you have to go to Hong Kong. But you see flashes of it here on occassion. I don't know if there is a high Indian cuisine. So far nobody has conviced me. But many cuisines that are great to eat do not have high cuisines. Turkish and Morrocan just to name two. Italian is another great cuisine that fails at the high cuisine level.

[indiagirl]

You would probably think that the people who can't taste the differences in fine wine are . . . well, I'm sure you have a word for it.

tourists, of course.

Nerissa - The problem with your statement is that it isn't that I don't believe that balance isn't achieved in Indian cuisine, I just don't believe that even when it is balanced perfectly it has the same validity (at the fancy restaurant level) as other cuisines have. I don't think the techniques they employ are as sophisticated as what other cuisines employ.

this analysis from someone who has admittedly never partaken of a good indian meal?

Take for example the Crab Meat Dumpling that we were served at the Sweet n Tart Chinese banquet. It was constructed from egg white. Yet it formed a seal around slices of crab meat and when the dumpling was submerged in soup, it extracted broth from the crab and it filled the dumpling. Now that is a sophisticated technique. And the broth was delicate and smoky. It made for a terrific dish. Show me an equivelent to that in Indian cuisine? Spicing routines and the type of balance you are describing are not equivelents IMO.

notwithstanding the fact that your question in that quote sounds unjustifiably rhetorical i will answer it, straight up. maybe a chaser

biryani - a rice dish that is cooked very very slowly in an earthen oven - lamb, rice, spices, vegetables - all in an unglazed earthenware pot, sealed with dough. the porosity of the container and the dough results in a wonderful combination of steaming while still imbibing the smoky flavor of the oven. the flavors all sealed within the pot and intermingling to create a gestalt flavor

or an indian desert. pastry dough rolled out repeatedly until it has a hundred layers of folds, deep fried in ghee and then quickly dipped in a lovely syrup of sugar, saffron, cardamom and cloves

gravy, in the commonly understood sense - i would like to clarify was a weakness of my list, not something that i think dominates the cuisine.

wilfrid, the latter day thunder god of reason, intelligence and logic, summed it all up quite well in the 1or2, 3 or4 post, no?

i think you should just respond to that post, steve. i wish i could just stay away from this thread.

:(

:)

:?

Edited March 21, 2003 by indiagirl (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

I think the more examples you guys give, the worse off your argument gets. Because a Biryani is exactly the type of dish I am not talking about.

Maybe, and I say this naively but my suspicions are I am onto something, you should just admit that because Indian cuisine has been relegated to housholds, and it hasn't historically been highly practiced in restaurants, where the competition amongst chefs for people's money inspires them to create new dishes and techniques that will stand out, that it hasn't developed a level of technique that is in accordance with what I am describing. Let's suppose this is the case? You all seem to care about it but I don't see why? It is easy enough to say that had the socio-economic situation in India been different, the cuisine would have developed differently. But now that is changing with younger Indian chefs coming onto the scene. They don't want to be pigeonholed by having to exclusively use old fashion techniques and theories about how to prepare the cuisine. And while they will base their new cuisine on their forefathers, I believe that the Indian cuisine of tomorrow, will bear as much resemblance to tandoori chicken as modern French cuisine resembles dishes like Veal Orloff.

[Gavin Jones]

Steve, I appreciate that your comments are directed at the high-end - however I am inclined to think it would be rash to predict the behaviour of a small self-defining class. (Hence the repeated analogies with art etc - it's the mid-19thC what are connoisseurs going to look at in 50 years? Who are the connoisseurs?).

I had thought that the lump of protein, sauced was a universalising piece of cooking which you had demonstrated that, but for the aberrant (such as Chinese & Thais), formed the foundation of anything such an elite would eat.

However to demonstrate this it is simply circular to insist that the population upon which you test the hypothesis is selected from that soi-disant elite.

(I thought I'd offered you an easy set up, actually, since it's a fairly safe bet that the number of 'elite' (= french ) restaurants in China and India would very likely increase over the next 20 years or so).

[oraklet]

steve, as usual you are basically right, and as usual you are largely misunderstood. one reason may be the way you state things - the devil is in the detail. for instance, you say

"But refined and overly hot do not go together in my opinion"

this is the kind of ideas that gets you into trouble. whereas we might partly agree on what is refined, "overly hot" is a matter of (acquired) taste. you will easily see that there is no way for you to decide objectively if a dish is hot to a degree that any raffinement disappears. you might not notice the raffinnement, but an indian might.

right?

[SobaAddict70]

I think the more examples you guys give, the worse off your argument gets. Because a Biryani is exactly the type of dish I am not talking about.

But you said

As long as Indian dining revolves around gravys, I believe that is what people are going to conclude.

Any reasonable person who read that would conclude that you meant the entirety of the cuisine. Now you've modified your statement to mean that SOME portion of Indian dining revolves around gravy based sauces. Maybe you didn't say it in those certain terms, but you certainly implied it by logical extension. Isn't that a mite too convenient?

Once again, a worthy thread has degenerated into the sort of circular sophistry that generally pervades e-gullet especially when certain types of comparisons are the order of the day.

May it please the Court -- counsel for the peanut gallery withdraws its brief from the proceedings at hand, caused in part by exasperation and keyboard fatigue. (It's 4:35 am, and I'm going to bed.)

Soba

Edited March 21, 2003 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[Tonyfinch]

or an indian desert. pastry dough rolled out repeatedly until it has a hundred layers of folds, deep fried in ghee and then quickly dipped in a lovely syrup of sugar, saffron, cardamom and cloves

India girl I have seen that dessert being made by cooks near Lahore,an incredibly skilfull and lengthy process to come up with just the right degree of flaky softness while ensuring the whole thing holds together and doesn't disintigrate. What do you call it? I've had similar pastry concoctions stuffed with coconut and pistachio and then suffused in thick cream (malai) which had been flavoured with ginger and saffron, with toasted coconut and pistachio,cinammon and cloves sprinkled over the top.

Omigod food porn. Must rush out and get some Mathai NOW!

Edited March 21, 2003 by Tonyfinch (log)

[JasonCampbell]

The question is: Is the use of spice in savoury cooking a good thing or does it detract from the main event, which is the 'true flavour' of the base ingredient?

I wish the tone of this thread would become less confrontational and defensive. Anyone remember the original question?

[macrosan]

The question is: Is the use of spice in savoury cooking a good thing or does it detract from the main event, which is the 'true flavour' of the base ingredient?

I wish the tone of this thread would become less confrontational and defensive. Anyone remember the original question?

There are two types of eGullet thread in this respect, Jason. Type A always gets confrontational and defensive, Type B doesn't. Type A quickly forgets the original question, Type B doesn't.

The laws of physics (and others) dictate that a Type A cannot transmutate into a Type B, although the reverse process can occur in a heartbeat. This has become a Type A thread, and you enter at your peril. If you have not yet completed the Advanced Certificate in Type A Survival, you may be well advised to spend a little time in the many excellent Type B threads to be found at eGullet, and especially in the UK Forum, The Symposium, the Italy Forum, and other places populated by a significantly different group of contributors.

...and the Adam Balic Bio Thread is a must for a little relaxation and light relief

Welcome to eGullet, Jason

[Sandra Levine]

eGullet: home of tedious argument

[JasonCampbell]

The question is: Is the use of spice in savoury cooking a good thing or does it detract from the main event, which is the 'true flavour' of the base ingredient?

I wish the tone of this thread would become less confrontational and defensive. Anyone remember the original question?

There are two types of eGullet thread in this respect, Jason. Type A always gets confrontational and defensive, Type B doesn't. Type A quickly forgets the original question, Type B doesn't.

The laws of physics (and others) dictate that a Type A cannot transmutate into a Type B, although the reverse process can occur in a heartbeat. This has become a Type A thread, and you enter at your peril. If you have not yet completed the Advanced Certificate in Type A Survival, you may be well advised to spend a little time in the many excellent Type B threads to be found at eGullet, and especially in the UK Forum, The Symposium, the Italy Forum, and other places populated by a significantly different group of contributors.

...and the Adam Balic Bio Thread is a must for a little relaxation and light relief

Welcome™ to eGullet, Jason

Thanks for your kind advice and guidance. Is it imperative that I read Adam Balic's BIOS, I ask as it appears to be 135 pages long with 4040 contributions? Is their any plans for a 'Balic BIOS Lite' to get us newbies up to speed?

Incidentally I found Adam's reply to my contention that Europeans over spiced food in the middle ages very good, he certainly gave me food for thought (OOPS! Pun).

[indiagirl]

or an indian desert. pastry dough rolled out repeatedly until it has a hundred layers of folds, deep fried in ghee and then quickly dipped in a lovely syrup of sugar, saffron, cardamom and cloves

India girl I have seen that dessert being made by cooks near Lahore,an incredibly skilfull and lengthy process to come up with just the right degree of flaky softness while ensuring the whole thing holds together and doesn't disintigrate. What do you call it? I've had similar pastry concoctions stuffed with coconut and pistachio and then suffused in thick cream (malai) which had been flavoured with ginger and saffron, with toasted coconut and pistachio,cinammon and cloves sprinkled over the top.

Omigod food porn. Must rush out and get some Mathai NOW!

Tony - we call them chiravate. Literally meaning a 100 folds. Vat is a fold.

Are you referring to Balushahi?

Steve - I give up.

As has been suggested, shall we try to talk about spices again. As before, I put forth the gestalt theory of spices. Greater than the sum of it's parts.

Take a cream based pasta sauce. A little mace added to it completely changes the taste. I think it makes the cheese and the pasta taste different. An entirely new dish, IMHO, by the addition of a new spice. Earlier in the thread there was some mention of whether this in indeed the case - new dish vs. old dish with an added ingredient.

Opinions, please?

[Tonyfinch]

IG,no I know Balushai-flaky sweetmeats you can get in most Indian sweetshops. These were almost like mini parathas-flatter than Balushai, incredibly light and delicate, almost melting in your mouth when you eat them ,yet able to contain the stuffing and absorb the flavours of crunchy sugar, ginger,saffron and cream without falling apart-definitely one of the finest sweet dishes I've ever eaten but I'm buggered if I can remember what it's called-I'll have to go and do some research and get back to you-it might be Chiravate but it doesn't ring a bell.

[Sandra Levine]

Take a cream based pasta sauce. A little mace added to it completely changes the taste. I think it makes the cheese and the pasta taste different. An entirely new dish, IMHO, by the addition of a new spice. Earlier in the thread there was some mention of whether this in indeed the case - new dish vs. old dish with an added ingredient.

Opinions, please?

Steve will say no, it's all gravy. Other will say it's a new dish and we'll be off for another 6 pages. Why bother?