Spices: For or against?

[torakris]

Comparing restaurant cuisine, available to everyone who can afford it, and cuisine served in private homes, truly elitest and revolving around class, are really the apples and oranges here. If there is an Indian cuisine that is sooooooo gooooood that isn't available to anyone, someone should make it available because they could make a bloody fortune. I'd be very happy to support it.

I agree with the statement that comparing restaurant food and home cooking is like apples and oranges, they are 2 completely different things. however I think some may ahve a difficult time initially trying to bring the countires "elite" food abroad.

Every country, I am sure, has it's high end restaurants were the elitest of the country eat, the problem is that in the US ( I say US becasue I have no experience in Europe and other areas) we tend to view the "ethnic" cuisines as those or of immigrants. Thus in our minds immigrants = poor = cheap, this is not saying it it is bad food it doesn't have the status that French food has. Therefore it is hard for people to consider paying a couple hundred dollars for these "ethnic" (really hate this word!) cuisines.

Here is an anology:

The Japanese car makers want to start selling their higher end models abroad, however the image of Jaapnese cars abroad is cheap and efficient, who would want to pay $20,000 plus for a Japanese car? So they change the names, instead of Honda, Toyota and Nissan they become Acura, Infiniti and (I can't remember the other one) and they sell like hotcakes. The thing is in Japan they don't need these fancy names because people here know them as great cars companies that can but out decent models in all ranges. In order to sell them abroad though it was necessary to bypass peoples misconceptions of Honda = cheap by calling it Acura therfore allowing to break into a new market.

unfortunately with cars it was easy, trying to project a new image of a cuisine is much harder, though it isn't impossible, it will just take a lot of work to get there.

Okay back to spicing!

[Steve Plotnicki]

Good Indian food should be able to demonstrate mastery of spicing so that one layer of flavor is easily distinguishable from the next. A garam masala for example, should never contain so much pepper that it "catches the throat".

Soba - I guess you are not hearing me. I believe, and this is merely speculation on my part, that complex spicing in the way you describe it will never catch on in the west. I believe it is something indiginous to the subcontinent and will always be viewed as "ethnic cuisine." It has nothing to do with it tasting good or being successful or not. It only has to do with how the upper middle class expresses themselves though cuisine.

I think in the west, and I believe that this is the concept that is taking the globe by storm, people want to taste the complexity of the proteins. People do not want to eat lamb in a complex curry sauce. They want to eat complex lamb in a curry sauce that has just enough complexity to enhance the lamb. It is the difference between the Tabla approach, and the Diwan approach. Again, this is just my prediction but, I believe that the Diwan approach to tandoori lamb chops will befall the same fate as Tournedos Rossini. An old fashioned dish that is served in "classic" restaurants. But not where "anybody" goes to eat anymore. And maybe it will take another generation for it to happen, but it will. It happens to every cuisine where an upper middle class has disposable income and decides they want to use it in restaurants.

Every country, I am sure, has it's high end restaurants were the elitest of the country eat, the problem is that in the US ( I say US becasue I have no experience in Europe and other areas) we tend to view the "ethnic" cuisines as those or of immigrants.

Torakris - Japanese cuisine is not looked at in the manner you describe. I believe that every high end diner who follows the contemporary dining scene would admit that Japanese restaurants deliver cuisine is the highest possible standard.

[indiagirl]

From the one cook book I can reach without taking my lap top off my lap:

Tabak Maas - Cardamom flavored lamb chops

Kashmiri Kamargah - Spicy Lamb Ribs in Batter

Kashmiri Rojan Josh - Lamb in a Rich Sauce

Jahangiri Gosht - Lamb Marinated in Ginger and Spices

Shahi Rojan Josh - Lamb in a Sauce of many Spices

Khubani Gosht - Apricot flavored lamb

Shahi Korma - Nutty flavored braised lamb

Kashmiri Moghlai Gosht - Lamb in a Ginger flavored sauce

Dalcha Hyderabadi - Sweet and Sour Lamb with Lentils

Do Piaza Gosht - Lamb Braised in a Rich Onion Sauce

Kalia Nizam Ul Mulk - Aromatic Lamb

Raja Haleem - Lamb simmered with cracked wheat

Tamatar Gosht - Lamb Chops in a Spicy Tomato Sauce

Shahi Raan - Marinated Leg of Lamb

Palak Gosht - Lamb with Spinach and Tomato

Shami Kebab - Fragrant and Spicy Mince Kababs

Padishah Kofta Curry - Meatballs in a Curry Sauce

The translations are pretty poor. What I see in this list:

It's only one type of northern Indian cuisine

If "techniques" is about the treatment of the lamb itself, yes, most of the recipes are a lamb cooked in a gravy of some kind. A couple of exceptions but yes, a "weakness" there if you could call it that.

But if "techniques" includes the spices one chooses to use (which neatly brings us back on topic) - those are in different proportions for each recipe and each dish will taste very very different. There are common spices in all the dishes to be sure, but used differently.

Not a big fan of Jaffrey, btw, and, if you believe your point about professionals, she is not a chef by training.

[SobaAddict70]

I think that for matters of this discussion, Pakistan and Bangladesh count as part of India. Or if not then we need to discuss Goan, Kashmiri, Kerala, Gujarati, etc., etc. separately. Which is not to say that your larger point - that we're not experiencing Indian food at its best is not valid.

Uh, no, g., I beg to differ.

Those two countries have clearly different culinary traditions than India (not to mention that with Pakistan, what you have is a Muslim majority, and a great deal of carnivores), so naturally the approach to cuisine is going to be different.

Since many "Indian" restaurants have staff from these countries, its not too much of a stretch to say that the cooks and staff prepare dishes that they know...namely northern Indian-centered cuisine, or failing that, Pakistani or Bangladeshi renditions of what might pass for Indian food, which is to say, not very good renditions at all.

For purposes of this discussion, I am applying my definition of "Indian" to mean exactly that...people from India who are Indian.

Soba

[torakris]

Every country, I am sure, has it's high end restaurants were the elitest of the country eat, the problem is that in the US ( I say US becasue I have no experience in Europe and other areas) we tend to view the "ethnic" cuisines as those or of immigrants.

Torakris - Japanese cuisine is not looked at in the manner you describe. I believe that every high end diner who follows the contemporary dining scene would admit that Japanese restaurants deliver cuisine is the highest possible standard.

Japanese in a way ranks up there with the French cuisine as one that people feel the best about spending money for. Japanese as an immigrant cuisine was very limited to areas where they was a very high population of Japanese people (ie Hawaii), otherwise the Japanese food as we see it today is based on the sushi boom that rode in years ago. Sushi came in as an expensive (thus elite ) food because it is expensive, the freshest fish cost the most money.

[SobaAddict70]

People do not want to eat lamb in a complex curry sauce. They want to eat complex lamb in a curry sauce that has just enough complexity to enhance the lamb.

Of course I hear you, but I think you're missing the point I was trying to make. Indiagirl, of course, beat me to it. I wish I had my Indian cookbooks with me -- the ones I use are vegetarian (I'm not a vegetarian, but I'm a big fan of vegetables) -- in the section on garam masala, there is a description of complexity that approaches the type of diversity that Indiagirl references in her reply to you.

Complex lamb? What's dat?

Anyway, the sauce has enough complexity to enhance the lamb. But my point is that you have not yet had the experience of having lamb with a sufficiently complex sauce that does not overpower the taste of the lamb, and the reason why is that the education that must take place in order for people to have that epiphany, at least in the U.S., has not happened yet. By education, I mean that people haven't LEARNED what it means to taste a properly complex curry sauce. All they've had, as in your and my cases are bad renditions of Indian food. And this is one reason why I think the Tabla approach fails as much as it succeeds. It's like a chef trying to create avant-garde food without learning how to make a beurre blanc. Most people need to learn how to appreciate a proper garam masala or a chatni or a raita, and then they can step out and explore new combinations or fusion cuisine.

Isn't one of the tenets of P-ism, that in order to know all the potentialities of food, that you have to experience it at the source? (I'm thinking of French food in particular.) According to the theory you keep expounding ( ), if I want to learn all that haute French cuisine has to offer, I need to experience it in France, yes? I need to go over to Paris and wine and dine as often as possible, so I can train my palate with those experiences, etc. Same with Indian food. I don't see why P-ism doesn't apply here.

Soba

Edited March 20, 2003 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[Tonyfinch]

If there is an Indian cuisine that is sooooooo gooooood that isn't available to anyone, someone should make it available because they could make a bloody fortune. I'd be very happy to support it.

I think that that is an absolutely fair point and I agree with it completely. What is ironic is that the standard in Indian restaurants in the East-Maylaysia, Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand-and in East and South Africa-is infinitely higher than those in the West.

Of the three greatest Indian restaurant meals I've ever eaten one was in the Oberoi Hotel in Bombay, one was in the Holiday Inn in Johore Bahru, Malaysia, where a top Indian chef was "guesting", and the third was in the Minar restaurant in Nairobi. And I've had many others in Singapore, Pakistan and Thailand which knock any Indian meal that I've had in the UK into a corner. You just do not find food and cooking of that quality in Indian restaurants here, and I'm sure it must be the same in the US.

Why? Well I could write an essay on this which would result in a very long post which would probably bore everyone. Some of the issues have already been touched upon and there are many others. But Steve, that sooooo goooood cuisine DOES exist outside of private homes and , unlike the PMs in your inbox,it is available for anyone prepard to make the effort to seek it out. You'll have to travel to the East or to Africa to eat it but that would be an exciting trip to make, would it not?

Edited March 20, 2003 by Tonyfinch (log)

[Adam Balic]

From the Plotnicki abridged version of Waverly Root's "The Food of France".

Page 4: "Had some simply delightful meals in restaurants, not much else to say really. Oh wait, Sparkling red wine is an abomination".

Edited March 20, 2003 by Adam Balic (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Anyway, the sauce has enough complexity to enhance the lamb. But my point is that you have not yet had the experience of having lamb with a sufficiently complex sauce that does not overpower the taste of the lamb, and the reason why is that the education that must take place in order for people to have that epiphany, at least in the U.S., has not happened yet

Soba - I just don't believe this will ever be true about western dining. Complex saucing will never take the place of the underlying ingredients having the maximum complexity. This is why in India Girl's list of lamb dishes, the likely western response is they all will taste the same. Whether you want to portray that position as ignorant or not, doesn't really matter. As long as Indian dining revolves around gravys, I believe that is what people are going to conclude.

Tony - I absolutely believe you that the Indian food, and the rest of the food in Asia, is delicious when you are there. But from what I see, the examples people point to makes it seem like the restaurants just cook a better version of home cooking. I am looking for a cuisine that is too difficult for home chefs to prepare.

That's the big line in the sand here. Nobody is disputing that if you go to a major city in Asia, beginning at Beirut and ending in Seoul, that you won't find an indiginous cuisine in every place that is delicious. But is it a fancy version of home cooking, or have chefs in fancy restaurants created a cuisine that is only practiced in restaurants? Because when I talk about spices and how they will be applied, I am not talking about home cooking. I am talking about a true restaurant cuisine that is not practiced in homes. In reality, very few countries have something that meets this description.

[hjshorter]

This is why in India Girl's list of lamb dishes, the likely western response is they all will taste the same. Whether you want to portray that position as ignorant or not, doesn't really matter. As long as Indian dining revolves around gravys, I believe that is what people are going to conclude.

Do you really believe this? It's amazing; it achieves a double-whammy by insulting both non-Western cuisine and American diners. Wow.

I find it even more amazing that Asian cuisine is being lumped together as one category. I would not even presume to compare, say, Indian with Thai cuisine. To my palate they are as different as night and day.

I have followed this thread with interest, but haven't wanted to jump in as I have seen my thoughts better expressed by others.

[Adam Balic]

That's the big line in the sand here. Nobody is disputing that if you go to a major city in Asia, beginning at Beirut and ending in Seoul, that you won't find an indiginous cuisine in every place that is delicious. But is it a fancy version of home cooking, or have chefs in fancy restaurants created a cuisine that is only practiced in restaurants? Because when I talk about spices and how they will be applied, I am not talking about home cooking. I am talking about a true restaurant cuisine that is not practiced in homes. In reality, very few countries have something that meets this description.

Steve - plenty of cultures have food that is to complex/expensive to be done in the 'home' and require the employment of professional chefs. Some have been discussed on this site even. Why is it that these do not count if they are not being served to certain group of people? Indeed using the same logic, why not turn the argument on its head and say that 'fine dining' doesn't count in terms of food relevance, as it an abberation and not un-representative?

This is not a personal or political statement.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Do you really believe this? It's amazing; it achieves a double-whammy by insulting both non-Western cuisine and American diners. Wow.

If you are asking whether I believe that Western diners would categorize twenty five lamb dishes that all revolved around a gravy as "the same," yes I do believe that. I believe that Western diners would not find a variation in the spicing routine to be a sufficient difference. Go to Brussels and get yourself a pot of mussels. They have fifteen different ways to spice the broth. Westerners think of that as [the same dish[/i/ spiced fifteen different ways. That's because our cuisine revolves around proteins and not spices.

Steve - plenty of cultures have food that is to complex/expensive to be done in the 'home' and require the employment of professional chefs.

Adam - I think that is a good point. Why don't you name some and see if it differs, and how, from restaurant cooking in that country.

[Miss J]

What else would prompt such a paranoid conclusion that we don't criticise these cuisines because of "political correctness"?

Sorry to interrupt, but I just have to cackle hysterically for a few minutes at the mild suggestion that Tony of all people could be "politically correct."

(where is the "wiping tears away" emoticon? )

Steve, I take your point about gravy. However, I think we can safely assume that "gravy" is a handy English word being used to describe a handful of "wet" Indian lamb dishes. This in no way means that they are actually gravies, or that they even look the same. (For the sake of argument, let's leave the spices out of it for a moment.) Westerners might well see 15 different ways of flavouring moules as being the same dish, but then it does look pretty much the same. (It's the shells, man.) However, different Indian lamb dishes in different types of sauce/liquid may not look even vaguely similar. And to take the point further, when a Westerner says "gravy" s/he means something rather different than what moistens an Indian lamb dish. So your point is dependant on semantics, really.

So there.

Edited March 20, 2003 by Miss J (log)

[Adam Balic]

Steve - plenty of cultures have food that is to complex/expensive to be done in the 'home' and require the employment of professional chefs.

Adam - I think that is a good point. Why don't you name some and see if it differs, and how, from restaurant cooking in that country.

Difficult to make the comparison, as there is no restaurant culture to speak of in some of these societies. Indeed, some of these societies ceased to exist before the invention of the 'restaurant'.

Difficult to make the comparison, as there is no restaurant culture to speak of in some of these societies. Indeed, some of these societies ceased to exist before the invention of the 'restaurant'.

I will happily make a list if you like and in this I would ask the aid of people that have far more knowledge on the subject then me. But, what would be the point, other then to re-state the obvious for many people and to still be un-convincing to you? I get the feeling that no matter what argument or example is presented you will still see food culture in a neo-Darwinian, reductionist and hierarchical manner and from that perspective, what it is 'best' now is that 'best' that has ever been.

Will you be an innocent, free from all former cultural, political and personal restraints, can we walk together through the garden of Earthly delights and savour the fruit of all trees equally?

Edited March 20, 2003 by Adam Balic (log)

[SobaAddict70]

Complex saucing will never take the place of the underlying ingredients having the maximum complexity. This is why in India Girl's list of lamb dishes, the likely western response is they all will taste the same. Whether you want to portray that position as ignorant or not, doesn't really matter. As long as Indian dining revolves around gravys, I believe that is what people are going to conclude.

Uh, no.

Indian dining does NOT revolve around gravies and curry sauces. Gravies and curry sauces form only ONE component of this multi-faceted cuisine. There are dishes that are not gravy-based and cooking techniques that exhibit as much complexity as those that would result in or with sauces. The tandoori meats at Diwan are one example. The coconut rice at Chola is another example. I cannot believe that you would so categorically compress an entire cuisine to a single sentence, so I will pretend for a moment that you did not post what you posted.

With respect to your thesis statement, you cannot template a technique that applies to haute French cuisine to Indian cuisine and expect the same results. A sauce or a chaunk or a chatni or whatever has complexity -- its just not the way you imagine it to be. The complexity comes not only from the ingredients themselves, but also from the sum total of these ingredients being combined in a certain way, the proportions used, and the medium in which their aromas and underlying or hidden flavors are released. Therefore, with respect to Indiagirl's list of lamb dishes, the difference lies in their method of application. In terms of a math analogy, the mathematical statement 2+(3x5) is not equivalent to (2+3)x5, even though the elements of each mathematical statement are the same.

Soba

Edited March 20, 2003 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[Wilfrid]

The more gets posted here, the less I understand the discussion.

Which of these are we discussing?

1. There are excellent upscale Indian restaurants in some countries, where the spicing achieves levels of complexity which enhances (rather than compensates for) the ingredients, where the meat is not cooked to chewy overdoneness, and where the professionalism of the operation exceeds that of an averagely good home kitchen.

or

2. There aren't any such places which Steve has been too, or which are conveniently available to him.

Because 1. is certainly true, and I don't much care whether Steve agrees with me or not. But 2. could be true also.

And which of these are we discussing?

3. Assertive or complex or fiery spicing will not appeal to the Western palate.

or

4. Such spicing is unlikely, in the foreseeable future, to play a role in the kind of cooking being conducted at the expensive, avant garde end of upscale in France.

Because 3. is obviously false - and again, it doesn't much matter whether individuals here agree or not: Indian (or Bengali), Thai and Mexican food have vast followings in the west. However, I believe 4. is true, and if that's all Steve means, we can shut up shop.

What I'll bow out of is a discussion which compares the cuisine at Arpege and Pierre Gagnaire with the cuisine on East 6th Street, Manhattan. Too silly even for me, thanks.

[Wilfrid]

Will you be an innocent, free from all former cultural, political and personal restraints, can we walk together through the garden of Earthly delights and savour the fruit of all trees equally?

A disquieting mental image, only just saved from sheer horror by the fig leaves.

[Stone]

I had some very complex sashimi last night.

This is why in India Girl's list of lamb dishes, the likely western response is they all will taste the same. Whether you want to portray that position as ignorant or not, doesn't really matter

I wonder what your reaction would be if a report proved that, in fact, the subtlies in wine that the wealthy, elite tasters have been touting for generations is all bunk and that, actually, they all taste pretty much the same, but when "experts" get in a room together they all follow the crowd and nod their heads in agreement. Your response, of course, would be that the report is silly because you and all the people you believe to have "taste" can taste all the currants, leather, tar, cigar-boxes, and gravel in the wines. You would probably think that the people who can't taste the differences in fine wine are . . . well, I'm sure you have a word for it.

Edited March 20, 2003 by Stone (log)

[Xanthippe]

The more gets posted here, the less I understand the discussion.

AMEN!!!!

What began as an interesting and stimulating discussion has morphed, at least for me, into an eye-rolling stultiloquy. Where's the soul? Where's the passion??

Continue the cerebral pissing contest if you must, but my gullet demands immediate attention . . .

[Wilfrid]

Stone, I've seen reports like that before, and it strikes me as a stunt rather than a serious research study. Equivalent stunts have provoked art experts into praising daubs by a chimpanzee in terms of abstract art. I think it shows it's not difficult to cxreate a situation in which people make fools of themselves. I think you'd need a better designed study to support the conclusion that good and bad wines are actually indistinguishable, which - I think you'll agree - is more than somewhat counterintuitive.

[SobaAddict70]

I thought 2 and 3, but I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a point other than for arguing's sake.

Soba

[Stone]

Wilfrid -- you're probably right. But let's say, "what if . . . ." In essence, Plotz is saying, "I and my chosen market segment of experts can't taste the difference in Indian curries, therefore the difference is irrelevant." My point is that his inability to recognize and appreciate the subtle differences in Indian curries and gravies is no more relevant than my inability to recognize and appreciate the subtle differences in wine.

[Tonyfinch]

My reading of Stone's post was that he was not saying the wines were indistinguishable. He was merely drawing a very apt analogyto Steve's absurd assertion that "Western diners" would not see any difference in the lamb dishes listed by Indiagirl.

Do Indian people all look the same to those "Western diners" too, Steve?

[Stone]

Do Indian people all look the same to those "Western diners" too, Steve?

Tony -- I think this is uncalled for.

[Wilfrid]

Yeah, relax guys. I think we're trying, and perhaps failing, to find a polite way of asking whether Steve considers himself experienced in Indian cuisine (outside the States) as he clearly is in French and other cuisines, and in wine. All in favor of the question, politely put. Personally, I don't consider myself expert in Indian food, but I've eaten a lot of it over the years, in a number of countries (not India), and don't recognize these generalizations about chewy meat, gravy and unsubtle spicing.