Transition from PNG fired burners to Induction heating

[palo]

 

37 minutes ago, vyas said:

Could anyone kindly connect me to this program for technical and other relevant support

 

MECS UK

 

What's your location?

p

[paulraphael]

On 1/30/2024 at 10:33 AM, btbyrd said:

 .....

 

Induction has so much potential but it also kind of sucks.

I don't have btbyrd's experience with induction, but everything he says reinforces my suspicions. I've been researching these things and it seems obvious that the coils are too small and the interfaces are unacceptable.

 

I do look forward to good ones. I don't know if I trust appliance manufacturers to ever make them. 

 

Meanwhile, gas ranges have become something of a scapegoat and a distraction in environmental policy debates. To lower your carbon footprint, there are dozens of things with a vastly bigger impact. Including replacing gas furnaces, boilers, and residential hot water heaters. 

 

If you're worried about indoor air quality, get a good hood. Change residential codes to require them. If you don't have one (and probably no one here does, because hardly anyone even makes good ones for homes) you're breathing bad stuff no matter your heat source. At least if you cook hot. Which you do if you enjoy good food. 

[Smithy]

1 hour ago, palo said:

 

 

What's your location?

p

 

India.

[Laurentius]

2 hours ago, paulraphael said:

I don't have btbyrd's experience with induction, but everything he says reinforces my suspicions. I've been researching these things and it seems obvious that the coils are too small and the interfaces are unacceptable.

 

I do look forward to good ones. I don't know if I trust appliance manufacturers to ever make them. 

 

Meanwhile, gas ranges have become something of a scapegoat and a distraction in environmental policy debates. To lower your carbon footprint, there are dozens of things with a vastly bigger impact. Including replacing gas furnaces, boilers, and residential hot water heaters. 

 

If you're worried about indoor air quality, get a good hood. Change residential codes to require them. If you don't have one (and probably no one here does, because hardly anyone even makes good ones for homes) you're breathing bad stuff no matter your heat source. At least if you cook hot. Which you do if you enjoy good food. 

 

Amen to this.

 

If you really want to shrink your carbon footprint, stop buying new, elective stuff.  Induction appliances are but one overtouted "responsible" example.

[KennethT]

16 hours ago, Laurentius said:

 

Can you please explain this?  The 120v Mirage Pro cycles in all settings, but not using full power.  My understanding is that is what the "G4" engines are supposed to do.

I don't have a Mirage Pro so I'm not sure what it does.  I also don't know what a "G4" engine is.  My experience is with 240V countertop induction.  As I explained before, the inexpensive 3300W model that I have cycles the power.  So, if I set it to 400W (12% power output) it puts out a short pulse of 3300W and then idles, then a short pulse, then idles, etc.  With sensitive ingredients this can easily cause burning.  The 2600W Vollrath unit does not cycle pulses - instead it has a variable power supply which only supplies the coil with the percentage of current that you ask of it.  So if I set it at 10%, it gives 260W of power to the pan continuously - not pulses of the 2600W.  See https://www.vollrathfoodservice.com/products/countertop-equipment/cooking-equipment/induction-ranges/4-series-induction-range/hpi4-2600  for more information.

[vyas]

1 hour ago, KennethT said:

I don't have a Mirage Pro so I'm not sure what it does.  I also don't know what a "G4" engine is.  My experience is with 240V countertop induction.  As I explained before, the inexpensive 3300W model that I have cycles the power.  So, if I set it to 400W (12% power output) it puts out a short pulse of 3300W and then idles, then a short pulse, then idles, etc.  With sensitive ingredients this can easily cause burning.  The 2600W Vollrath unit does not cycle pulses - instead it has a variable power supply which only supplies the coil with the percentage of current that you ask of it.  So if I set it at 10%, it gives 260W of power to the pan continuously - not pulses of the 2600W.  See https://www.vollrathfoodservice.com/products/countertop-equipment/cooking-equipment/induction-ranges/4-series-induction-range/hpi4-2600  for more information.

Curious to know more about"short pulses" And "variable power supply". How do I enforce vendors to state their power scheme that is pulse based or variable power in their technical proposals

[KennethT]

58 minutes ago, vyas said:

Curious to know more about"short pulses" And "variable power supply". How do I enforce vendors to state their power scheme that is pulse based or variable power in their technical proposals

From what I am to understand, most units change the amount of power to the pan via duty cycle - aka short pulses.  So, for example, if your cooker is 1000W and you set it for 500W (50% power), most units will turn put all 1000W to the coil for, say, 2 seconds, then off for 2 seconds, then 1000W for 2 seconds, etc.  Depending on the cycle time, it may not even be noticeable that their using a duty cycle - for instance, if they use 0.5 seconds as a duty cycle, you probably wouldn't realize if it was providing 1000W for 0.25 seconds and off for 0.25 seconds.  The problem comes when the total cycle time is several seconds long - then there's a noticeable on/off time.

 

According to the link I provided, Vollrath is the only manufacturer that doesn't use duty cycle and instead has a variable power supply - it states that their method is patented and since the unit's not that old, I assume the patent hasn't run out yet.  Then again, many foreign companies dont' care about patents, especially if their sales are not going to the US.

[Laurentius]

2 hours ago, KennethT said:

The 2600W Vollrath unit does not cycle pulses - instead it has a variable power supply which only supplies the coil with the percentage of current that you ask of it. 

 

I read the advert, and I can see why you might conclude that.  I would take that with a grain of salt, at least until I saw the unit running through a watt meter.

 

I'm also a bit skeptical about the "extended range" aspect.  The physics of magnetic induction fields is that their intensity drops very, very fast, as a function of the inverse of the square root.  I think truly emulating gas might require a lot more power than 240 single phase.

[KennethT]

29 minutes ago, Laurentius said:

 

I read the advert, and I can see why you might conclude that.  I would take that with a grain of salt, at least until I saw the unit running through a watt meter.

 

I'm also a bit skeptical about the "extended range" aspect.  The physics of magnetic induction fields is that their intensity drops very, very fast, as a function of the inverse of the square root.  I think truly emulating gas might require a lot more power than 240 single phase.

Considering that I have one and I use it every day, I am happy providing my opinion regardless of the wording in the advert.  Take it for what you will.  I don't need to run it through a watt meter because I can tell empirically, which at the end of the day, is what matters most - the results.  When I simmer anything, thick or thin liquids - it is a steady constant simmer at whatever amount I choose.  Hard simmer, barely simmering, it matters not.  If there was any noticeable duty cycle, you would see a hard boil, then nothing, then hard boil, etc.  I see this when I use my Chinese made 3300W unit - it is VERY obvious. It's even more obvious when stir frying or sauteing - it's an easy way to burn things like when making something with doubanjiang, which burns easily.  However, with the Vollrath, I can set it so it barely sizzles - it is constant and unvarying.  No meter required.  However, feel free to use one if you wish.  Also, without measuring the magnetic flux of the induction field, I can also empirically report that when I saute or tilt the pan to baste something, it performs as advertised.  Granted, I try not to saute things 3 inches off the surface of the unit - it would be really uncomfortable to hold a pan like that for any period of time.

[paulraphael]

The regular electric flat-top range (not induction) that came with our house does the pulse thing. I indulge sadistic fantasies about the company's entire engineering team every time I use it. What an utterly negligent and insulting way to design a stove.

 

There isn't anything fundamentally wrong with regulating heat with pulses. Pulse-width modulation (PWM) is common for things that need precise control, like immersion circulators, and even audio amplifiers. But the pulses have to be very short! My stupid stove has pulses and pauses that are maybe 20 seconds long.

 

Wish me luck with the hollandaise sauce. 

[Laurentius]

5 hours ago, KennethT said:

No meter required. 

 

Well, if you say that this unit doesn't cycle, a meter is probably the only way to tell for sure.  I can tell you that the Mirage Pro gives no observable signs of cycling, but it does, albeit the wattage changes within certain limits for the power settings.

 

IF variable constant-on was practicable in home and restaurant markets, one would think it would already be everywhere.

[Laurentius]

29 minutes ago, paulraphael said:

There isn't anything fundamentally wrong with regulating heat with pulses.

 

Totally agree.  The real bitch is when the hob has too few settings and the controls cause wide swings.

[paulraphael]

Here's the way to do it: Garland GME36-120C range, with genuine knobs and huge 5KW induction surfaces.

 

Of course you'll need $25K for the range, and probably another $25K to run 3-phase power to your house, and it's commercial, so you'll probably void your homeowner's insurance. But who cares—you get knobs!

Edited February 2 by paulraphael (log)

[weinoo]

It's on sale!

[paulraphael]

On 2/2/2024 at 5:32 PM, weinoo said:

It's on sale!

 

We're joking, but really, I don't see why something couldn't be made with that basic design for regular person prices.

 

Scale the power back (or make it so you can't have all the burners running full-tilt at once) so it can run on regular split-phase power. And don't build it out of 500 lbs of unobtanium. 

[Smithy]

@vyas, I hope you haven't gone away in confusion or frustration from this topic. I've been conversing with a friend who works on energy efficiency studies. He's been working in Africa on transportation issues, but he's also tapped into the question of efficient cookery. When I wrote him about this topic, he first thought I was talking about household cooking setups, and recommended strongly that any devices be tested first by the people who'd be using them -- i.e. the women, usually, who do the cooking. When I brought up the issue of institutional cooking such as your group is doing, he noted that there are still fuel-efficient options that wouldn't require induction or natural gas. They're using clean(er) fuel briquettes, for example. 

 

Although this is a different direction than the induction you're asking about, he suggests that you check out the Clean Cooking Alliance. He also pointed me to Koko Fuel, but they seem strictly to be in Nairobi.

[vyas]

On 2/9/2024 at 12:44 AM, Smithy said:

@vyas, I hope you haven't gone away in confusion or frustration from this topic. I've been conversing with a friend who works on energy efficiency studies. He's been working in Africa on transportation issues, but he's also tapped into the question of efficient cookery. When I wrote him about this topic, he first thought I was talking about household cooking setups, and recommended strongly that any devices be tested first by the people who'd be using them -- i.e. the women, usually, who do the cooking. When I brought up the issue of institutional cooking such as your group is doing, he noted that there are still fuel-efficient options that wouldn't require induction or natural gas. They're using clean(er) fuel briquettes, for example. 

 

Although this is a different direction than the induction you're asking about, he suggests that you check out the Clean Cooking Alliance. He also pointed me to Koko Fuel, but they seem strictly to be in Nairobi.

@Smithy No confusion Smithy. In fact i am being encouraged by diversified and valuable insights from many members. They may vary in terms of opinions however their goal is same. Efficiency everywhere whether it terms of energy usage or cooking quality etc., 

 

Actually we have been using already briquette fired boilers. However there are some constraints like space, availability of briquets, operation challenges etc., We have selected this option of induction heating since electrical systems are being evolved significantly over the past decade. In fact we are planning to import from china where the cost of induction stoves is cheaper compared to india because of china's vast industrial production capabilities. In India we have only OEMs in double digit. So still the cost of stoves is very high which an NGO organization like us have to think twice before investing.

There is a lot of bridge between industry and intended beneficiaries in country like India. Can't blame industries also since they have to manage their profit and loss.

 

I found this MECS from UK (https://mecs.org.uk/) pioneering the induction heating technology in developing countries like Africa and India.

 

I would like to interact with them and explain our NGO requirements and seek assistance from them. I have hopes on Induction heating because our revex is increasing year by year and we really want to control it.

 

Thanks,

 

Than