Caramel made from syrup?

[Muscadelle]

Hi everyone!

 

One of my culinary nemesis has always been caramel. I would like to make a caramel from a syrup in which I previously candied something in. (A caramel to pipe in moulded bonbons)

 

That syrup is 70° Brix and is approx 95% sucrose / 5% glucose. 

The syrup is already perfumed so I would like to bring it to the minimum temperature at which I would be able to make a nice piping caramel.

 

I've read that 70 ° Brix equals roughly the 37°  Baumé (Petit boulé stage (112C-117C)).

 

Do you guys think it's ok to just bring my syrup to 120°C and then add some butter?

 

Thank you in advance  for your help!

[Bentley]

A couple of thoughts....120 is too high for a piped caramel.  That in the range of a typical cut caramel. Also, it doesn't sound like your syrup is caramelized, so there won't be much caramel flavor.  It will just be very sweet.  

 

I would experiment with caramelizing the syrup to the amber color of your preference, then deglazing with cream and butter and cooking to around 104 for a runny caramel up to 106 for a piped caramel that oozes like lava to 108 for a caramel that can be piped but doesn't move much.  

[teonzo]

If you try to caramelize a syrup you used for candying something then you'll get a bad surprise. Most of those syrups get ruined at temperatures much lower than the one for caramelization. For example the pineapple syrup starts getting ruined below 115°C.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[Muscadelle]

56 minutes ago, Bentley said:

A couple of thoughts....120 is too high for a piped caramel.  That in the range of a typical cut caramel. Also, it doesn't sound like your syrup is caramelized, so there won't be much caramel flavor.  It will just be very sweet.  

 

I would experiment with caramelizing the syrup to the amber color of your preference, then deglazing with cream and butter and cooking to around 104 for a runny caramel up to 106 for a piped caramel that oozes like lava to 108 for a caramel that can be piped but doesn't move much.  

Okay interesting, the post below mention 115 minimum but it also mention that an higher temperature has good chances of ruining the thing.

 

Since my syrup already has a beautiful light maple syrup color I can not count on my eyes for this one.

I might try 108, I dont mind not having the caramel flavor that much. I just want to get it high enough to get a nice caramel texture. I’ll try to balance it with salt if it’s disgustingly sweet 😅

 

thank you  very much for those thoughts! 
 

20 minutes ago, teonzo said:

If you try to caramelize a syrup you used for candying something then you'll get a bad surprise. Most of those syrups get ruined at temperatures much lower than the one for caramelization. For example the pineapple syrup starts getting ruined below 115°C.

 

 

 

Teo

 

Oh no! I knew at some point some people had the same idea and tried it.

 

do you think it’s because of some leftover food particles in the syrups that burns before the sugar can caramelise. I’ll filter it with cheese cloth before hand and see what happens...

 

Thank you for the warning, I won’t get my hopes too high.

[teonzo]

1 hour ago, Muscadelle said:

do you think it’s because of some leftover food particles in the syrups that burns before the sugar can caramelise. I’ll filter it with cheese cloth before hand and see what happens...

 

When you candy something then some molecules of that something will end up in the syrup. That syrup gets its flavor from these molecules. You can't filter them with a cheesecloth, they are too small for that. Most of these molecules are heat sensitive, meaning that when you go over a certain temperature they transform into something else, most of the times this something else is not pleasant. This temperature varies from molecule to molecule. Each fruit releases lots of different molecules in the candying syrup, so you'll have some molecules that degrade at X temperature, others at Y temperature, others more at Z temperature, so on. To reach caramelization point you need to go over 150°C, at that temperature most of those molecules already degraded, meaning the flavor of your syrup will get ruined and unpalatable.

 

Years ago I tried to use the candying syrup to boost some mousses made with Italian meringue and/or pate a bombe. So I tried to cook the syrup to 118-121°C. My reasoning was: I make pineapple mousse using Italian meringue made with pineapple candying syrup, add pineapple puree and gelatin, then semi-whipped cream, then candied pineapple dices, so I get a pineapple bomb. I tried 3 or 4 times, each time the syrup started smelling burnt before reaching 115°C. I tried with other fruits, similar thing. If my memory is right only the syrup for marrons glaces reached 121°C without troubles, but I stopped using pate a bombe for making marrons glaces mousse, it came out too cloyingly sweet.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[Muscadelle]

7 minutes ago, teonzo said:

 

When you candy something then some molecules of that something will end up in the syrup. That syrup gets its flavor from these molecules. You can't filter them with a cheesecloth, they are too small for that. Most of these molecules are heat sensitive, meaning that when you go over a certain temperature they transform into something else, most of the times this something else is not pleasant. This temperature varies from molecule to molecule. Each fruit releases lots of different molecules in the candying syrup, so you'll have some molecules that degrade at X temperature, others at Y temperature, others more at Z temperature, so on. To reach caramelization point you need to go over 150°C, at that temperature most of those molecules already degraded, meaning the flavor of your syrup will get ruined and unpalatable.

 

Years ago I tried to use the candying syrup to boost some mousses made with Italian meringue and/or pate a bombe. So I tried to cook the syrup to 118-121°C. My reasoning was: I make pineapple mousse using Italian meringue made with pineapple candying syrup, add pineapple puree and gelatin, then semi-whipped cream, then candied pineapple dices, so I get a pineapple bomb. I tried 3 or 4 times, each time the syrup started smelling burnt before reaching 115°C. I tried with other fruits, similar thing. If my memory is right only the syrup for marrons glaces reached 121°C without troubles, but I stopped using pate a bombe for making marrons glaces mousse, it came out too cloyingly sweet.

 

 

 

Teo

 

Thank you so much for sharing the results of your previous experiments!

Since it is a candied mushrooms syrup, maybe it will react more like a the marrons glacés and less like candied fruits syrup.

 

I will make some tests keeping everything that was said in this thread in mind, and I'll share the results!

[Bentley]

6 hours ago, teonzo said:

If you try to caramelize a syrup you used for candying something then you'll get a bad surprise. Most of those syrups get ruined at temperatures much lower than the one for caramelization. For example the pineapple syrup starts getting ruined below 115°C.

 

 

 

Teo

 

That actually makes a lot of sense.  

[Muscadelle]

Today I made a test bringing my mushroom syrup to 120C. By the smell, I knew I couldn't go higher.

 

I added butter and a little cream and something extraordinary happened... Umami happened!! My caramel has a scent and a taste reminiscent of cheese!!! But in a really good way! 💛

I know it sounds off putting but It is so tasty!! I dont know what I will do with it, i still need to work on the fluidity but anyway, I'll keep you posted!

[teonzo]

Umami is already present in the mushroom syrup, since mushrooms are among the ingredients richest in umami. If you add umami to cream then it will recall cheese because cheese is dairy with umami.

You can pair your experiment with the usual suspects like figs and pears.

 

If you want to make a mushroom caramel then you just need to add ground dried mushrooms to a standard caramel.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[Jim D.]

@Muscadelle, I think I have waited long enough to ask this:  It took a while to reveal that it was mushrooms you were candying.  I for one was thinking of pears, apricots, peaches, ginger, etc., certainly nothing we think of as savory.  What in the world do you do with candied mushrooms?

[Muscadelle]

49 minutes ago, teonzo said:

Umami is already present in the mushroom syrup, since mushrooms are among the ingredients richest in umami. If you add umami to cream then it will recall cheese because cheese is dairy with umami.

You can pair your experiment with the usual suspects like figs and pears.

 

If you want to make a mushroom caramel then you just need to add ground dried mushrooms to a standard caramel.

 

 

 

Teo

 

Yep, when you think about it afterwards it makes sense but i couldn't have expected it! I mean, when you cook mushrooms in butter it doesn't taste like cheese? It's a mystery!

 

I already have a chocolate bonbon with a caramel filling made with candy cap mushroom powder, it does work but I just wanted to explore more avenues.

4 minutes ago, Jim D. said:

@Muscadelle, I think I have waited long enough to ask this:  It took a while to reveal that it was mushrooms you were candying.  I for one was thinking of pears, apricots, peaches, ginger, etc., certainly nothing we think of as savory.  What in the world do you do with candied mushrooms?

They're delicious on their own, I canned them in their syrup. You can put some on your ice cream or pancakes, the syrup taste a little bit like maple.

I wanted to try an put a little piece inside a bonbon with caramel or maybe make some similar to a pate de marron with it. But the taste is really fragile, it's easy to lose it inside a chocolate.

Oh and they're chanterelles! I guess the taste will differ a lot depending on the mushrooms you use.

[teonzo]

You can make a bonbon with that chanterelle non-caramel, add a little piece of candied chanterelle, then finish with garlic ganache. Garlic pairs really well with chocolate. To make the ganache it's better to blanch the garlic cloves in milk for 3 times: put the peeled garlic cloves in a small pot, cover with cold milk, bring to the boil, drain the cloves and discard the milk, repeat other 2 times. After the 3rd blanching you puree the garlic, then add it to the ganache to taste.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[Muscadelle]

9 minutes ago, teonzo said:

You can make a bonbon with that chanterelle non-caramel, add a little piece of candied chanterelle, then finish with garlic ganache. Garlic pairs really well with chocolate. To make the ganache it's better to blanch the garlic cloves in milk for 3 times: put the peeled garlic cloves in a small pot, cover with cold milk, bring to the boil, drain the cloves and discard the milk, repeat other 2 times. After the 3rd blanching you puree the garlic, then add it to the ganache to taste.

 

 

 

Teo

 

I'm not sure if you're serious or not haha I'm all for bold and new flavours but garlic is really on another level. 😅

Unless we're talking black garlic which has a nice balsamic vinegar taste.

[Jim D.]

3 hours ago, Muscadelle said:

Oh and they're chanterelles! I guess the taste will differ a lot depending on the mushrooms you use.

 Ah, you omitted that crucial detail.  Chanterelles are not mere mushrooms.  They are in a class of their own.  Sautéed in butter, their vanilla undertone comes out. Fortunately they are foraged in the area where I now live.  I can imagine the filling you are describing paired with a ganache that emphasizes that vanilla flavor.  But please, no garlic.  Teo isn't always right (just kidding, of course).

[AAQuesada]

23 minutes ago, Jim D. said:

Teo isn't always right (just kidding, of course).

-

lol! if anyone else said that I would dismiss it out of hand. since it's Teo -who I'm pretty sure doesn't kid about food. it's prolly worth trying!

[teonzo]

13 hours ago, Muscadelle said:

I'm not sure if you're serious or not haha I'm all for bold and new flavours but garlic is really on another level. 😅

Unless we're talking black garlic which has a nice balsamic vinegar taste.

 

I'm serious, I tried that. Years ago the foodpairing.be website was free for all, on the chocolate graph they suggested garlic as one of the best pairings. I was puzzled but curious, so I tried making a bonbon. That was a big surprise, like the gorgonzola one: I thought my friends would be spitting it on my face ("taste this and guess what it is", hahahahha), but all them liked it. I would have bet good money on it being impossible. You need to blanch it in milk at least 3 times to make it "gentle". The problem is selling it, of course you need a good amount of curious customers, but if you already make candy cap mushroom bonbons then you should be already there.

If you choose the correct chocolate then you can pair it with almost anything. Try imagining some weird ingredient then make a google search, most probably you'll find that someone else already made a bonbon with it.

 

About mushrooms, my favourite with chocolate is porcini.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[Muscadelle]

3 hours ago, teonzo said:

 

I'm serious, I tried that. Years ago the foodpairing.be website was free for all, on the chocolate graph they suggested garlic as one of the best pairings. I was puzzled but curious, so I tried making a bonbon. That was a big surprise, like the gorgonzola one: I thought my friends would be spitting it on my face ("taste this and guess what it is", hahahahha), but all them liked it. I would have bet good money on it being impossible. You need to blanch it in milk at least 3 times to make it "gentle". The problem is selling it, of course you need a good amount of curious customers, but if you already make candy cap mushroom bonbons then you should be already there.

If you choose the correct chocolate then you can pair it with almost anything. Try imagining some weird ingredient then make a google search, most probably you'll find that someone else already made a bonbon with it.

 

About mushrooms, my favourite with chocolate is porcini.

 

 

 

Teo

 

That is sooo interesting. My brand is about putting forward local products and ingredients that grow in the forest mainly, so my customer are pretty open minded about trying new things! Thanks i would have never thought to go there with the garlic.

[Tri2Cook]

22 hours ago, Muscadelle said:

it does work but I just wanted to explore more avenues.

There are a lot of people here with a lot of knowledge, experience and willingness to share and help, that's one of the great things about eGullet and well worth taking advantage of. But never let that shared knowledge, experience and willingness to help stop you from trying something you're curious about. It can be difficult to find things that haven't already been tried among this crowd but it's definitely not impossible. I went through a phase where pairing unlikely suspects was an intentional focus but I can honestly say chocolate and a caramel made from the syrup used to candy mushrooms is something that's never even come close to crossing my mind. So I'm watching this with interest so I can potentially steal... err... borrow! from your curiosity. 

[teonzo]

4 hours ago, Muscadelle said:

My brand is about putting forward local products and ingredients that grow in the forest mainly

 

Sounds like a lot of fun! And ethical too. You have lots of buds, resins and leaves to play with.

Knowing this, I would say that you can try a pine needles ganache. After all pine needles and chanterelles are already paired in nature, since you find a needle in most chanterelles when you clean them.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[Jim D.]

@Muscadelle, you might want to get in contact with @gfron1, who is an accomplished forager and indeed makes his living, one might say, doing so. He has a highly rated restaurant in St. Louis named Bulrush and makes stunning chocolates besides.  Perhaps you have already seen his work in this forum.

[gfron1]

On 10/3/2020 at 2:13 PM, teonzo said:

If you want to make a mushroom caramel then you just need to add ground dried mushrooms to a standard caramel.

Just catching up to the conversation thanks to Jim for the tag. When I make mushroom caramel (cut, not pipe) I do absolutely nothing different than my vanilla caramel - except making sure the solid whole mushroom is cleaned with my airbrush to remove all dust. Just as I would drop a split and scraped vanilla pod into the sugar water, I do the same with whole mushrooms. They get pulled out right before pouring. That said there are some tricks - pick the right type of mushroom (porcini is more pungent than say a Lobster mushroom), use the oldest mushrooms - the ones that have started to break down or are on the edge of breaking down, then dehydrate them to concentrate the flavors. 

On 10/3/2020 at 2:58 PM, Jim D. said:

@Muscadelle, I think I have waited long enough to ask this:  It took a while to reveal that it was mushrooms you were candying.  I for one was thinking of pears, apricots, peaches, ginger, etc., certainly nothing we think of as savory.  What in the world do you do with candied mushrooms?

What would you NOT do with candied mushrooms!? We crush them and add them to other things for savory streusels. We crush them and rim our cocktail glasses with them. We use cinnabars (because they're so damn cute) and a finish garnish on salads. We tend toward the smaller mushrooms for this but for years I've worked on mushroom glacé (not sure if that's the right technique name) - where we take larger mushrooms and slice them and then very slowly candy them to make them translucent - you can imagine the dramatic effect. It's hard though because they want to go to mush.

23 hours ago, Muscadelle said:

Unless we're talking black garlic which has a nice balsamic vinegar taste.

We've spend much of the past year blackening all sorts of vegetables because we're trying to grow our vegetable charcuterie. All of them have that similar flavor profile that would be fun to incorporate in this way.

1 hour ago, teonzo said:

Sounds like a lot of fun! And ethical too. You have lots of buds, resins and leaves to play with.

Knowing this, I would say that you can try a pine needles ganache. After all pine needles and chanterelles are already paired in nature, since you find a needle in most chanterelles when you clean them.

Resins and pine will give you fits. There's something about that resin that I don't understand the science of yet, that will simply cling to your pan and only come off with highest caustic things like fuel. Even steeping the needles will release them causing havoc on any cookware. We've gone to distilling when we want that flavor and making essences and essential oils, in small part, because our still is durable and easier to clean. I do want to add that we rarely use pine, and NEVER with citrus, because it just reminisces everyone to floor cleaner no matter how good it tastes. 

 

Well, sounds like a super fun project, and if the world can ever safely travel again I would absolutely love to come see what you're doing. 

[Muscadelle]

20 hours ago, teonzo said:

 

Sounds like a lot of fun! And ethical too. You have lots of buds, resins and leaves to play with.

Knowing this, I would say that you can try a pine needles ganache. After all pine needles and chanterelles are already paired in nature, since you find a needle in most chanterelles when you clean them.

 

 

 

Teo

 

I love that! I'm sure you could literally picture a walk in the forest when eating that bonbon, which is, imo, the greatest achievement one can make when cooking: evoking memories.

18 hours ago, gfron1 said:

Just catching up to the conversation thanks to Jim for the tag. When I make mushroom caramel (cut, not pipe) I do absolutely nothing different than my vanilla caramel - except making sure the solid whole mushroom is cleaned with my airbrush to remove all dust. Just as I would drop a split and scraped vanilla pod into the sugar water, I do the same with whole mushrooms. They get pulled out right before pouring. That said there are some tricks - pick the right type of mushroom (porcini is more pungent than say a Lobster mushroom), use the oldest mushrooms - the ones that have started to break down or are on the edge of breaking down, then dehydrate them to concentrate the flavors. 

What would you NOT do with candied mushrooms!? We crush them and add them to other things for savory streusels. We crush them and rim our cocktail glasses with them. We use cinnabars (because they're so damn cute) and a finish garnish on salads. We tend toward the smaller mushrooms for this but for years I've worked on mushroom glacé (not sure if that's the right technique name) - where we take larger mushrooms and slice them and then very slowly candy them to make them translucent - you can imagine the dramatic effect. It's hard though because they want to go to mush.

We've spend much of the past year blackening all sorts of vegetables because we're trying to grow our vegetable charcuterie. All of them have that similar flavor profile that would be fun to incorporate in this way.

Resins and pine will give you fits. There's something about that resin that I don't understand the science of yet, that will simply cling to your pan and only come off with highest caustic things like fuel. Even steeping the needles will release them causing havoc on any cookware. We've gone to distilling when we want that flavor and making essences and essential oils, in small part, because our still is durable and easier to clean. I do want to add that we rarely use pine, and NEVER with citrus, because it just reminisces everyone to floor cleaner no matter how good it tastes. 

 

Well, sounds like a super fun project, and if the world can ever safely travel again I would absolutely love to come see what you're doing. 

I'm so thrilled! I'd have never thought I'd find someone who likes candying lobster mushrooms! It would be my pleasure to show you around if you travel to Quebec city, if i'm ever in St-Louis I'll definitely stop by your restaurant, menu looks really creative!

 

One of my best bonbon is a simple fir tree (buds) infused white chocolate ganache. I like delicate flavours so resin is not my cup of tea. I could try pine but I feel it would be too similar to fir tree.

 

If you want to take a look at some of the wild ingredients I work with: https://www.chocolatsvolage.com/pages/sauvage 

And some of my creations https://www.chocolatsvolage.com/pages/ingredients

 

 

Sorry the web site only has a french version...

 

 

[Jim D.]

15 minutes ago, Muscadelle said:

One of my best bonbon is a simple fir tree (buds) infused white chocolate ganache. I like delicate flavours so resin is not my cup of tea. I could try pine but I feel it would be too similar to fir tree.

 

 

That comment about your fir tree bonbon reminded me of something I always think of when I use yuzu.  I've not seen anyone mention it, so it may be just my imagination, but I think yuzu has a bit of evergreen flavor, and inevitably it comes to mind when I am planning Christmas assortments.

[Jim D.]

20 minutes ago, Muscadelle said:

If you want to take a look at some of the wild ingredients I work with: https://www.chocolatsvolage.com/pages/sauvage 

And some of my creations https://www.chocolatsvolage.com/pages/ingredients

 

 

Those are gorgeous bonbons, very interesting techniques and beautiful blending of colors.  And the flavors sound very interesting.

[Muscadelle]

Just now, Jim D. said:

 

That comment about your fir tree bonbon reminded me of something I always think of when I use yuzu.  I've not seen anyone mention it, so it may be just my imagination, but I think yuzu has a bit of evergreen flavor, and inevitably it comes to mind when I am planning Christmas assortments.

 

Hahaha, yeah well I've never been a big fan of yuzu myself but I get where you're coming from!