Another Take on Diet and Obesity, from Scientific American

[chromedome]

Offered with the usual disclaimers (small sample sizes, more/larger studies need to be done, etc):

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-new-theory-of-obesity/

[pastrygirl]

Interesting.  The 60% of calories from ultra-processed foods kind of boggles my mind.  Sugary cereal for breakfast, chicken nuggets for lunch and frozen pizza for dinner? 

[chromedome]

"Heat and eat" prepared meals, Sandra Lee style dump 'n' mix recipes, fast food...it's not really that difficult to imagine. Especially once you factor in the disproportionate caloric density of a lot of processed foods.

 

ETA: This corresponds closely to Pollan's stricture about eating food, as opposed to "edible food-like substances," but the structure of the study gives it some credence.

Edited September 26, 2019 by chromedome (log)

[gfweb]

I still catch on the term ultraprocessed .  It is so nonspecific that it is without meaning.  A pickled cucumber is processed. Saltines are processed flour.  Everything that isn't raw is processed to some degree.  And some raw stuff will pack the weight on,  eg honey.

 

I'd much prefer something descriptive like high calorie high salt.

[BeeZee]

First thing that comes to mind for me, regarding "ultraprocessed" vs high calorie/high salt. Consider McD's chicken nuggets. Compare to the same weight or volume of homemade fried boneless chicken. I'd venture a guess that the nuggets, being "ultraprocessed" were more calorie dense (and higher in sodium) than the unprocessed chicken with breading. Processing, to me, is where you take a bunch of food products and chemicals and combine them to simulate a natural product.

[heidih]

I appreciate studies being done with the best research frameworks possible. I also know that the neural connections and the testing and imaging abilities have come so so far. Data, as long as its basis is clear, is a positive. However, what I feel not being addressed in the studies is the bio-psycho-social factor of being mentally satisfied with taste when it comes to humans. We've come a long way from the routine application of rodent studies to people.  A huge bag of Ruffles potato chips eaten mindlessly cuz they "don't hit the spot" versus really well done fries are miles apart in the enjoyment realm and in my non scientific experience that affects volume of consumption and also translates to future food that one eats. 

[rotuts]

this is a good article.  and I believe in its fundamental premise :

 

Obesity is a result of simply eating more calories than one needs .

 

One eats more than one needs , because fundamental pathways from the tongue

 

to your brain are interfered with by higher levels of NaCl  and sugar in the food you are used to eating

 

unless you only eat food you cook from scratch .

 

I take HCTZ.  not important as to what this is , but it provides for the excretion of NaCl

 

thus lowering ones blood volume , and thus the work of circulating that larger blood volume from

 

here to there.  I though then Id ,  within reason , reduce my NaCl intake.

 

after a few months I noticed that I had a heightened sense of taste. I also noticed that

 

a bag of Fritos had an exceptional " burn " on the tongue.

 

I think one gets used to high levels of NaCL and Sugar in commercial foods, 

 

and thus high levels of NaCl and sugar are added to these foods , or no one would buy them.

 

Catch - 22.   high levels of NaCl and sugar do not signal your brain that you are full

 

but make you eat more NaCl and Sugar as the set-point has been raised to a very high level

 

by over use of these ingredients via a commercial diet.

 

try decreasing NaCl intake , with in reason , for a few  months 

 

your tongue and brain will reset its information pathways.

 

also of note :  I use a different table salt , but that's not a topic for consideration here

 

other than to say , I can season my food w this different salt to any " salt level " I  like

 

so Im not missing out  on the Salt Buzz.

 

just no more fritos

 

a tragedy right there.

 

and food will have more taste.

Edited September 26, 2019 by rotuts (log)

[kayb]

I don't eat a lot of fast food (I will admit to Taco Bell once every couple of months), but I'm really bad to snack on processed snack foods. Just finished munching a handful of candy corn (is there a higher sugar food on the planet?), and at Sam's today, yielded to temptation and bought a box of Rice Krispy treats (they're gluten-free, I reasoned...). I have two bags of potato chips in the pantry (unopened, at least). I'm not big on sugary cereals, unless I'm eating them dry out of the box as a snack (Froot Loops, anyone?), but I haven't done that in a while.

 

I've been contemplating taking part in the October Unprocessed challenge, which as I understand it involves you limiting your intake for the month to what you cook from raw ingredients, with a minimum of additives. (Unfortunately, I was NOT thinking about that when I bought the Rice Krispy treats!). I could do that easily enough if I stretched the definition of unprocessed to include cheese (ain't giving up cheese, period) and cured meats (a normal lunch, with an apple). H'mm. I have the weekend to consider it.

 

[rotuts]

@kayb

 

cured meats   are going to cause problems 

 

consider making a salad , even potato salad.   add an avocado ?

[Margaret Pilgrim]

1 hour ago, rotuts said:

this is a good article.  and I believe in its fundamental premise :

 

Obesity is a result of simply eating more calories than one needs .

 

One eats more than one needs , because fundamental pathways from the tongue

 

to your brain are interfered with by higher levels of NaCl  and sugar in the food you are used to eating

 

unless you only eat food you cook from scratch .

 

I take HCTZ.  not important as to what this is , but it provides for the excretion of NaCl

 

thus lowering ones blood volume , and thus the work of circulating that larger blood volume from

 

here to there.  I though then Id ,  within reason , reduce my NaCl intake.

 

after a few months I noticed that I had a heightened sense of taste. I also noticed that

 

a bag of Fritos had an exceptional " burn " on the tongue.

 

I think one gets used to high levels of NaCL and Sugar in commercial foods, 

 

and thus high levels of NaCl and sugar are added to these foods , or no one would buy them.

 

Catch - 22.   high levels of NaCl and sugar do not signal your brain that you are full

 

but make you eat more NaCl and Sugar as the set-point has been raised to a very high level

 

by over use of these ingredients via a commercial diet.

 

try decreasing NaCl intake , with in reason , for a few  months 

 

your tongue and brain will reset its information pathways. 

 

also of note :  I use a different table salt , but that's not a topic for consideration here

 

other than to say , I can season my food w this different salt to any " salt level " I  like

 

so Im not missing out  on the Slat Buzz.

 

just no more fritos

 

a tragedy right there.

 

and food will have more taste.

 

An excellent post.

[chromedome]

6 hours ago, gfweb said:

I still catch on the term ultraprocessed .  It is so nonspecific that it is without meaning.  A pickled cucumber is processed. Saltines are processed flour.  Everything that isn't raw is processed to some degree.  And some raw stuff will pack the weight on,  eg honey.

 

I'd much prefer something descriptive like high calorie high salt.

...high additives, high fat, trans fat...It's not an easy thing to define.

 

My best effort is "more processed than one might ordinarily do at home," which admittedly is less applicable among the present company. I think anywhere you draw the line will still be arbitrary in the "I know it when I see it" sense.

 

Perhaps "can't be made outside of a factory" would cover it. A homemade potato chip ("crisp," for our UK cousins) is certainly not healthy but is not "ultraprocessed" in that sense, while a tube of Pringles absolutely is.

[pastrygirl]

A few years old, but on the topic of ultra processed food - industrial, sugar added, engineered so you want more ...

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/magazine/the-extraordinary-science-of-junk-food.html?ref=magazine&_r=2&pagewanted=all&

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by pastrygirl (log)

[Dave the Cook]

23 hours ago, chromedome said:

Perhaps "can't be made outside of a factory" would cover it. A homemade potato chip ("crisp," for our UK cousins) is certainly not healthy but is not "ultraprocessed" in that sense, while a tube of Pringles absolutely is.

 

I'm not sure how helpful that distinction is, though. In comparing the nutrition facts for Pringles and Lay's Potato Chips, one finds that, while they aren't identical, they are awfully similar. 

[rotuts]

interesting.

 

what are the nutritional facts for a truly home made

 

potato chip ?   thin cut from a fresh russet , skin still on, please ?

 

deep fried , but with care ?

 

before the Dose of Salt ?

 

you would have potato , and some oil.

 

with in reason , that can't be that bad, can it ?

Edited September 27, 2019 by rotuts (log)

[Dave the Cook]

Potatoes themselves have very little fat or sodium, so almost all of those that are in the nutritional info linked to above are coming from the frying and salting.

 

There's an entry in that same database for just "Potato Chips," but no details about how they're made. It might even just be an average of manufactured products. If I had to guess, I'd say that homemade would probably be higher in fat and salt, if for no other reason than manufacturers, for cost reasons, are not going to waste a microgram of any ingredient. I guess you could do your own analysis (weigh the potato, weigh the oil before and after), or send a batch of your own for a lab to do it (have your wallet handy, though they'd give you a breakdown of fat, fiber and vitamin content). I don't think it's worth it, because these days, chips for me are a rare treat, and thus exempted from close scrutiny.

 

23 minutes ago, rotuts said:

before the Dose of Salt ?

 

I am second to no one in my love of potatoes, but seriously, no salt? What would be the point?

 

[rotuts]

no , not no salt 

 

the salt is a variable that can vary.

 

potato , not so much.  and Im guessing you could fry a PC and have very little oil left on the chip

[Dave the Cook]

1 minute ago, rotuts said:

potato , not so much.  and Im guessing you could fry a PC and have very little oil left on the chip

 

Yeah, but could you do it more efficiently than Lay's? I don't think I could.

 

 

3 minutes ago, rotuts said:

no , not no salt 

 

Phew.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

What = efficiency?     Less residual oil?    

[Owtahear]

It is amazing to me, I travel a lot, so I eat out a lot and I drive a lot (sales) and much of my territory is not in urban areas with many options.   But what amazes me, is those long drives, sometimes when fueling up (gas) I like a little sugar kick to keep me awake during long drives and when you go into these gas stations,  the packages of a normal sized candy bar or M&M's is extinct, and replaced by the these bigger sizes........or the fast food with their gazillion ounce soda cups.   With all of the concern in regards to obesity and caloric intakes, the purveyors of sugar and salt are doubling down (literally) on serving sizes.

[rotuts]

twice a year , the CocaCola Co.  offers 12 packs of many of their drinks, if not all

 

Early Spring is one of the times , possibly Fall the second time.

 

I recall 5 packs for $10.00 USD.     "" Must Buy 5 " my numbers might be off a bit these days

 

but not by much :    don't know how much 60 cans of soda , sugar or diet , cost to make,

 

ship , and distribute.  but the marketing is clear :  you must buy 5.  

 

they want to get you addicted.  and the cost of the  lobbying to defeat a " Sugar tax " would make

 

a dent , albeit a small dent in The Nation Debt .