Using commercial stabilizer in home made ice cream

[teonzo]

20 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

Another failure.  The chilled mix was about as viscous as the last batch.  I didn't bother to try to spin.  As consolation the stuff tastes pretty good.  I shall call it pistachio pudding and be done. 

 

There's a way to save it. You just need to add the right amounts to get a double batch. Which is pretty easy since you don't need the stabilizers (assuming you agree it's better to cut them in half).

 

This is what you have now:

Heavy Cream 520 g
Pistachio Paste 140 g
Sugar 100 g
Salt 3 g
Locust Bean Gum 2 g
Lambda Carrageenan 1.3 g
Polysorbate 80 0.5 g
Glycerol Monostearate 0.1 g

 

This is the "correct" recipe (cream at 35% fat), doubled:

Heavy Cream 380 g

Water 660 g
Pistachio Paste 280 g
Sugar 200 g
Salt 6 g
Locust Bean Gum 2 g
Lambda Carrageenan 1.3 g
Polysorbate 80 0.5 g
Glycerol Monostearate 0.1 g

 

So you need to add these amounts to what you already have:

Water 520 g

Pistachio Paste 140 g
Sugar 100 g
Salt 3 g
 

Just add all these ingredients to the base you have in your hands, homogenize and it should be ok. Better using superfine sugar to dissolve it more easily. No need to cook anything.

To be precise you should make it triple and not double since you started with too many cream for a double recipe, but you would end up using a lot of pistachio paste which costs a fortune. If you want to do things properly then add these amounts for a triple recipe:

Water 1040 g

Pistachio Paste 280 g
Sugar 200 g
Salt 6 g

 

 

 

30 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

Teo, I like fat.  Fat and eggs.  For example, this.

 

The big difference here is given by the pistachio solids, which change things A LOT as far as balancing ice-cream. It's not just a matter of high fat ice-cream, it's a matter of high fat ice-cream containing tons of pistachio solids.

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

And, you know, that pistachio pudding is good stuff.  (Not that I mind enjoying pistachio butter right out of the melanger.)

 

If pistachios and raspberries were less expensive (or if I were rich) then I would eat them together every day and in huge amounts.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Thank you @teonzo for the idea.  The proportions would be off because I have been enjoying my pistachio pudding.  I still have pistachio paste left so I may try again.  But not today.

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I took most of the helpful suggestions.  My mix this time:

 

Heavy Cream 190 g

Milk 330 g
Pistachio Paste 140 g
Sugar 100 g
Salt 2 g
Locust Bean Gum 1 g
Lambda Carrageenan 0.65 g
Polysorbate 80 0.25 g
Glycerol Monostearate 0.05 g

 

 

Heated to 60C and homogenized as previously.  Result was much closer to ice cream.  Indeed, not a bad batch at all.  The biggest complaint is it does not look nor taste much like pistachio.  It looks like coffee and it does not taste like much of anything.  Maybe generic nut.  I had been tempted to add a drop of almond extract but I did not.

 

However the texture is getting closer.  Almost perfect right out of the machine.  Now in the second day there is a trace of iciness, though I am being critical.  Iciness is slight and scarcely perceptible.  But the iciness was not there on day one.  The texture is still thicker than necessary.  I'd have to get more pistachios to make the recipe again, but if I do I think I would reduce the locust bean gum and increase the glycerol monostearate.  I would also cut down the salt.

 

Meanwhile I might try making vanilla using these ingredients rather than eggs.  Any suggestions on the amounts of stabilizers and emulsifiers with no nut paste?

 

 

[paulraphael]

I ran your formula through my software and got:

 

 

Total Fat: 20.4%        

Milk Fat: 10.4%        

Total Solids: 47.1%        

Solids Nonfat: 26.6%        

Milk Solids Nonfat: 4.8%        

Stabilizer/Water: 0.41%        

POD: 135 / 1000g        

PAC: 157 / 1000g        

Absolute PAC: 394 / 1000g        

Rel. Hardness @ -14°C: 92        

 

A few thoughts …

Total fat is really high, because of the combined cream and nut butter content. This mutes flavor release; the best thing to do about it is to shift the ratio of fats toward nut oil. Total solids is higher than what’s ideal, but there isn’t much to be done about that.

Stabilizer content is high.

The emulsifier values seem flipped. Polysorbate works in much smaller quantities that GMS. Did you arrive at those numbers experimentally? If not, I’d suggest reversing them.

Sweetness is fairly high, at POD 135, but freezing point depression is low. Combined with the hardening power of the pistachio oils, I’d expect this to be very hard to scoop unless its allowed to warm up quite a bit (my tools only give a rough estimate here, but they suggest it will hard as a brick at -14°C,

 

Here’s a suggestion:

 

321g Whole Milk            

141g Heavy Cream 36%            

174g Pistachio Paste            

174g Pistachio Paste            

103g Dextrose            

17g Fructose            

1g Locust bean gum

0.1g carrageenan            

0.25g GSM

0.05g Polysorbate 80

2.0g Salt            

 

764g Total            

 

Analysis:

Total Fat: 20.6%        

Milk Fat: 8%        

Total Solids: 51.3%        

Solids Nonfat: 30.8%        

Milk Solids Nonfat: 4.3%        

Stabilizer/Water: 0.31%        

POD: 136 / 1000g        

PAC: 322 / 1000g        

Absolute PAC: 763 / 1000g        

Rel. Hardness @ -14°C: 80        

 

 

Re: vanilla ... I usually go with around 0.25% the water weight of the formula. For emulsifiers I use around 2g soy lecithin per 1000g formula. Mono/diglycerides are usually used at around 0.1-0.2%. Polysorbat 80 is usually .02-.04%. My understanding is that the glycerides will have the most impact on increasing overrun; the sorbitan esters will have the strongest effect on fat coalescence. But I haven't experimented with these; lecithin has worked fine for me.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Thanks for putting in a lot of work!  What software do you use?  The emulsifiers and stabilizer values are one half the amounts from the MC pistachio gelato recipe, in the same relative ratios.

 

The ice cream is not hard.  It is scoopable with a spoon.  But it's not too soft either.

 

I don't expect to make pistachio again for a while because I'd need to buy and grind more pistachios.  But I probably will try a batch of vanilla before my non-ultra pasteurized cream goes bad.

 

[paulraphael]

Do you have any idea what temperature the ice cream was when you were scooping it? If it was a normal consistency at normal serving temperatures, then I need to take another look at my data on pistachio oil.

 

I use spreadsheets that I've been building for my own purposes. The last few weeks I've been up to my neck in polynomial regression equations and correspondence with Ice Cream PhDs. 

 

Here's your project looks like ...

 

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

5 hours ago, paulraphael said:

Do you have any idea what temperature the ice cream was when you were scooping it? If it was a normal consistency at normal serving temperatures, then I need to take another look at my data on pistachio oil.

 

Minus 11.0 C, which required another spoon.

 

I'm sure it's phycological but if one sprinkles a few pistachios on top it looks and tastes like pistachio.  I noticed in The Perfect Scoop, David Lebovitz roasts all his nuts except pistachio, because roasting causes the green color to turn brown.

 

[jimb0]

I rarely add much in the way of stabilizers (notwithstanding eggs in custard or the occasional starch) to home ice cream since it rarely sticks around for very long - and stabilizers aren’t going make a huge difference if you’re eating it that day.

 

13 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

I'm sure it's phycological but if one sprinkles a few pistachios on top it looks and tastes like pistachio.  I noticed in The Perfect Scoop, David Lebovitz roasts all his nuts except pistachio, because roasting causes the green color to turn brown.

 

Absolutely, just like adding vanilla beans is evocative of vanilla, even if the taste isn’t necessarily that different (if you make your own vanilla, this is a great use for the grains you can strain out of the extract). You could probably bump up the roast flavours with a little toasted nut oil; that might not add too much in the way of brown colour. 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by jimb0 (log)

[paulraphael]

The whole color/flavor thing could have its own topic. I've always recoiled from colored ice creams, but just read something by a pastry chef on the degree to which people need the color to experience flavor. It had never crossed my mind.

[paulraphael]

14 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

Minus 11.0 C, which required another spoon.

 

 

That's helpful. I think I've been overestimating the hardening power of nut oils. Which means the suggested recipe I posted above will be too soft. If you have any more of this left, I'd be curious to know how it is at -9C. 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 9:22 AM, paulraphael said:

 

That's helpful. I think I've been overestimating the hardening power of nut oils. Which means the suggested recipe I posted above will be too soft. If you have any more of this left, I'd be curious to know how it is at -9C. 

 

Sorry there wasn't enough left, and now there is none.  I'm about to go start a batch of vanilla.  Since I've been reading The Perfect Scoop, I'll start with David Lebovitz's vanilla Philadelphia style recipe and add my emulsifiers and stabilizers.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Good results.  Only complaint is that I was getting ready for work and I accidentally spun a few* minutes too long.  The overrun is higher than I would like.  For the 750 g of cream called for in the recipe I used:

 

90 g sugar

20 g trehalose

salt 0.2 g

locust bean gum 1 g

lambda carrageenan 0.1 g

Polysorbate 80 0.055 g  (was trying for 0.05)

glycerol monostearate 0.25 g

 

 

Lebovitz called for 150 g of sugar.  Far too sweet for my taste.  I substituted 90 g sugar and 20 g of trehalose.

 

 

 

*6

 

[paulraphael]

On 5/24/2019 at 7:11 PM, JoNorvelleWalker said:

Good results.  Only complaint is that I was getting ready for work and I accidentally spun a few* minutes too long.  The overrun is higher than I would like.  For the 750 g of cream called for in the recipe I used:

 

90 g sugar

20 g trehalose

salt 0.2 g

locust bean gum 1 g

lambda carrageenan 0.1 g

Polysorbate 80 0.055 g  (was trying for 0.05)

glycerol monostearate 0.25 g

 

 

Lebovitz called for 150 g of sugar.  Far too sweet for my taste.  I substituted 90 g sugar and 20 g of trehalose.

 

 

 

*6

 

 

Yeah, every home recipe I've seen (and most pro recipes) are way too sweet. I usually go for a sucrose-equivalent sweetness (POD) of around 120g/1000g. 

Trehalose has roughly 40% the sweetness of sugar (possibly less at low dilutions), so you had the equivalent of 98g sucrose / 750g, or a POD of 130.

 

Sucrose and dextrose in combination also give lots of independent control over sweetness and freezing point. 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

2 hours ago, paulraphael said:

 

Yeah, every home recipe I've seen (and most pro recipes) are way too sweet. I usually go for a sucrose-equivalent sweetness (POD) of around 120g/1000g. 

Trehalose has roughly 40% the sweetness of sugar (possibly less at low dilutions), so you had the equivalent of 98g sucrose / 750g, or a POD of 130.

 

Sucrose and dextrose in combination also give lots of independent control over sweetness and freezing point. 

 

Yes, I was aiming for the sweetness of 100 g of sucrose, with more freezing point depression.  As it turns out more freezing point depression was not necessary.  If I make this again (which I probably will because it is good and because I am lazy -- compared to custard the recipe is easy) I'd use 100 g sucrose.

 

But I still like custard better!

 

[paulraphael]

I've been finding that some flavors need more sweetness than others. Unsurprisingly, bitter flavors like cocoa need extra sweetness to compensate. But I'm also finding that fruit flavors don't taste quite right at my usual low sweetness level. 

 

It's a kind of balancing act ... similar to getting salt levels right in order to to pop flavors into focus. 

[ElsieD]

I just made some salted caramel ice cream and reduced the commercial stabilizer from 3 gm. to 2 gm.  In the post that started this thread, I said I found the ice cream to be almost too creamy but I don't know if that was caused by using the comrrcial stabilizer or not.  It is hardening in the freezer so I'll post the result here once I have had some.

[cslas]

Jumping in a little late here, but I think it's my freezer that kills my ice cream. I use this Whynter machine as well as egg yolks, milk powder, and commercial stabilizer and my ice cream always comes out great and is great for the first night, but by the second day it becomes a chore to get it out of container. I think it's the freeze/thaw cycle of my freezer that does it. I'd love to find a home-sized "steady state" freezer if such a thing existed....  

Edited May 29, 2019 by cslas (log)

[paulraphael]

3 hours ago, cslas said:

Jumping in a little late here, but I think it's my freezer that kills my ice cream. I use this Whynter machine as well as egg yolks, milk powder, and commercial stabilizer and my ice cream always comes out great and is great for the first night, but by the second day it becomes a chore to get it out of container. I think it's the freeze/thaw cycle of my freezer that does it. I'd love to find a home-sized "steady state" freezer if such a thing existed....  

 

 

Can you post a typical recipe (in grams)? And figure out the temperature of the freezer? An easy way is to put a bottle of booze or rubbing alcohol in the freezer for at least 24 hours, and then get a reading with a good thermometer. It sounds like your freezer is cold (which is good ... it will harden the ice cream quickly) and that your formula might not have adequate freezing point depression (so it gets hard as a rock at freezer temp). 

 

Ideal freezer temperatures are always quite a bit lower than ideal serving temperatures. So you shouldn't expect ice cream to be easy to scoop without sitting out or in the fridge for a while. But if it's hard as concrete, you probably need to fix the formula. 

 

Another test is to let the ice cream sit out until it's a good temperature for scooping. It should be scoopable at -14°C, and easy to eat by -12°C. 

 

Stabilizers don't have any effect on freezing point depression. And it would be strange if your freezers defrost cycle were so radical as to cause the problems you describe. 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

4 hours ago, cslas said:

Jumping in a little late here, but I think it's my freezer that kills my ice cream. I use this Whynter machine as well as egg yolks, milk powder, and commercial stabilizer and my ice cream always comes out great and is great for the first night, but by the second day it becomes a chore to get it out of container. I think it's the freeze/thaw cycle of my freezer that does it. I'd love to find a home-sized "steady state" freezer if such a thing existed....  

 

 

For a price.  Or my old ancient freezer that doesn't have a freeze/thaw cycle either.

 

[ElsieD]

Here is the salted caramel ice cream made with 2 grams of commercial stabilizer.  Perfection.  (The picture has it looking very yellowish when it really is a light brown.)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

@ElsieD do I understand correctly that the trick was to use 2 grams of stabilizer instead of 3?

 

[ElsieD]

19 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

@ElsieD do I understand correctly that the trick was to use 2 grams of stabilizer instead of 3?

 

 

Yes, that's right.  Below is the recipe I use except I use 6 egg yolks and 1/2 teaspoon salt.  The mouth feel is better.  I tried to describe the mouth feel in my original post but it was hard to explain.  I just know that we like this better.  It scoops as easily with 2 gms. As it did with 3.  BTW, I have the hard cover of the book referenced in the title and really like it.

 

https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2012/04/bi-rite-creamery-san-francisco-salted-caramel-ice-cream-recipe.html

[JoNorvelleWalker]

51 minutes ago, ElsieD said:

 

Yes, that's right.  Below is the recipe I use except I use 6 egg yolks and 1/2 teaspoon salt.  The mouth feel is better.  I tried to describe the mouth feel in my original post but it was hard to explain.  I just know that we like this better.  It scoops as easily with 2 gms. As it did with 3.  BTW, I have the hard cover of the book referenced in the title and really like it.

 

https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2012/04/bi-rite-creamery-san-francisco-salted-caramel-ice-cream-recipe.html

 

I've read the book from work, but I don't own a copy.

 

Had you tried the salted caramel recipe without the stabilizer mix before making it with stabilizer?

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 7:06 PM, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

Minus 11.0 C, which required another spoon.

 

I'm sure it's phycological but if one sprinkles a few pistachios on top it looks and tastes like pistachio.  I noticed in The Perfect Scoop, David Lebovitz roasts all his nuts except pistachio, because roasting causes the green color to turn brown.

 

 

Oops, "phycological" was an egregious misspelling but not entirely inappropriate in a discussion of carrageenan.

 

As to my pistachio ice cream not tasting like much of anything, I think I've found the reason:  my pistachio paste did not taste like much of anything.  I let it get too old and rancid.  At least now I have more room in my refrigerator.

 

[ElsieD]

27 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

I've read the book from work, but I don't own a copy.

 

Had you tried the salted caramel recipe without the stabilizer mix before making it with stabilizer?

 

 

Yes, a number of times.  There is nothing wrong with it without the stabilizer but for some reason, this now has a creamier mouthfeel.  I seldom have a problem with ice crystals so that was never really an issue.