Shapes of Pans

[rotuts]

as we know , a sauté pan is shaped differently than a fry pan.

 

and a saucier has rounded sides , I guessing to accommodate a ballon wisk

 

there there are these :

 

 

these are Mauviel  from another site :

 

 

M's site describes the pan on the L :

 

http://www.mauvielusa.com/m-cook/M-cook-Stainless-Steel-Splayed-Saute-cast-iron-handle-plu5623.html

 

and the one on the R :

 

http://www.mauvielusa.com/m-cook/M-cook-Stainless-Steel-Curved-Splayed-Saute-Pan-cast-iron-handle-plu5612.html

 

Id call the one on the R a saucier

 

https://www.surlatable.com/product/PRO-819755/All+Clad+Stainless+Steel+Saucier

 

I have two similar to the R , but in aluminum . an all clad older aluminum only model  works might finely still !

 

any idea what the pan on the L was a designed for specifically 

 

Im guessing its a current incarnation of a very old design of a french saucier  when making curved bottoms was 

 

difficult to impossible way back when, even in copper

 

I have two thick  hammered copper pans , tin lined , of the L design

 

so :     what would you use the pan on the L for , if you had pans similar to the ones on the R

 

beauty , history , etc aside ?

[boilsover]

34 minutes ago, rotuts said:

any idea what the pan on the L was a designed for specifically 

 

Im guessing its a current incarnation of a very old design of a french saucier  when making curved bottoms was 

 

difficult to impossible way back when, even in copper

 

I have two thick  hammered copper pans , tin lined , of the L design

 

so :     what would you use the pan on the L for , if you had pans similar to the ones on the R

 

beauty , history , etc aside ?

 

This shape is known by several names: "sauteuse evassee", "Windsor", "Fait Tout".  You are correct that this shape is of venerable history in the classical French batterie.  The one on the right had no place in that history, although now it's called "saucier" (or less frequently here, a "sauteuse bombee").

 

The splayed shape was adopted for two main reasons:  (1) it allows increased evaporation; and (2) as pan contents are reduced, the surface-to-volume ratio remains relatively constant.  That constancy relieves the cook from making as many transfers to progressively smaller straightwall saucepans/casseroles when doing a reduction.  The increased access with utensils and specifically whisks was incidental, IMO.

 

The Windsor can be made using both the old joinery and the lathe-turning that was later adopted.  The bombee would be very difficult (and wasteful) to do the old way, but easy on a lathe with the right mandrel.  Only if the curvature turns back on itself (think bean pot or Ruffoni stocker) does it become harder.  But it is still do-able--you just need to use what's called a "split chuck" in the turning.  In the modern world of die pressing, you can stamp out either shape, but you can't turn the curve back to narrow.

 

For use, I consider the two shapes mostly interchangeable.  The Windsor is more linear in the surface:volume sense.  I suppose, if you're one of those cooks who buys the theory of whisks better "fitting" into the bombee (I don't), you might be happier going that route.  Note that even these compound-curved pans still have a bottom corner, and many whisks are fine and flexible enough to work in even a vertical wall "corner" (all of which have some radius anyway).  The bombee probably would be better as a makeshift wok on the cooktop and as a zambaglione/sabayon pan.

 

The Windsor is so versatile it would be my Desert Island pan.   

Edited November 3, 2017 by boilsover (log)

[SLB]

Thankful for (among other things) this thread.  I am about to invest in a new pan -- I had a decent year on my day-job, and am feeling a little reckless -- and was just about to post a query about windsor versus the "saucier" .  

Edited November 22, 2017 by SLB (log)

[SLB]

On 11/3/2017 at 1:16 PM, boilsover said:

 

This shape is known by several names: "sauteuse evassee", "Windsor", "Fait Tout".  You are correct that this shape is of venerable history in the classical French batterie.  The one on the right had no place in that history, although now it's called "saucier" (or less frequently here, a "sauteuse bombee").

 

The splayed shape was adopted for two main reasons:  (1) it allows increased evaporation; and (2) as pan contents are reduced, the surface-to-volume ratio remains relatively constant.  That constancy relieves the cook from making as many transfers to progressively smaller straightwall saucepans/casseroles when doing a reduction.  The increased access with utensils and specifically whisks was incidental, IMO.

 

The Windsor can be made using both the old joinery and the lathe-turning that was later adopted.  The bombee would be very difficult (and wasteful) to do the old way, but easy on a lathe with the right mandrel.  Only if the curvature turns back on itself (think bean pot or Ruffoni stocker) does it become harder.  But it is still do-able--you just need to use what's called a "split chuck" in the turning.  In the modern world of die pressing, you can stamp out either shape, but you can't turn the curve back to narrow.

 

For use, I consider the two shapes mostly interchangeable.  The Windsor is more linear in the surface:volume sense.  I suppose, if you're one of those cooks who buys the theory of whisks better "fitting" into the bombee (I don't), you might be happier going that route.  Note that even these compound-curved pans still have a bottom corner, and many whisks are fine and flexible enough to work in even a vertical wall "corner" (all of which have some radius anyway).  The bombee probably would be better as a makeshift wok on the cooktop and as a zambaglione/sabayon pan.

 

The Windsor is so versatile it would be my Desert Island pan.   

 

boilsover, I just want to double check that the splayed sauté pan is the same as the sauteuse évasée? 

 

In other words, this pan here is actually a traditional Windsor:  http://www.abt.com/product/115701/Mauviel-M250c-3.7-Qt.-Copper-And-Stainless-Steel-Splayed-Saute-Pan-654324.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=sc&utm_campaign=654324&camptype=cpcUSGooglePLA&pt_source=google&pt_medium=sc&pt_campaign=[PLA] [US] Manufacturer&pt_adgroup=[PMX] [PLA] [US] Manufacturer&pt_keyword=

 

I'm asking because per the slkinsey article from wayback, they are different pans with different traditional functions.  Specifically, the splayed sauté pan would have higher sides than the sauteuse.

 

I'm not trying to be challenging, I'm just trying to clarify my understanding. 

 

  

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLB (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I am not @boilsover but that is what I'd call a Windsor pan.  One of my most used shapes.  Wish I had a copper one.  The pan you linked is not on sale...otherwise I would be tempted...except, fortunately, I am broke.

 

[boilsover]

13 hours ago, SLB said:

boilsover, I just want to double check that the splayed sauté pan is the same as the sauteuse évasée? 

 

In other words, this pan here is actually a traditional Windsor:  http://www.abt.com/product/115701/Mauviel-M250c-3.7-Qt.-Copper-And-Stainless-Steel-Splayed-Saute-Pan-654324.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=sc&utm_campaign=654324&camptype=cpcUSGooglePLA&pt_source=google&pt_medium=sc&pt_campaign=[PLA] [US] Manufacturer&pt_adgroup=[PMX] [PLA] [US] Manufacturer&pt_keyword=

 

I'm asking because per the slkinsey article from wayback, they are different pans with different traditional functions.  Specifically, the splayed sauté pan would have higher sides than the sauteuse.

 

I'm not trying to be challenging, I'm just trying to clarify my understanding. 

 

  

 

 

Hi, SLB:

 

  No offense taken.  I'm having issues finding the distinction you mention in Sam's article.  Sam writes:

 

" Sauteuse Evasée (Slant-Sided Saucepan, Windsor Saucepan, Sauteuse Conique, Conical Sauteuse, Fait Tout, Chef’s Pan, Reduction Pan): This is a saucepan that has been optimized for reductions. The sides are angled out from the base to provide 25% more surface area for evaporation. In addition, the sides are even lower than those on a Low Saucepan -- usually one-third as tall as the diameter of the pan. Due to its geometry, which is neither particularly high nor particularly low, the Sauteuse Evasée may be used for sautéing in the larger sizes, and the smaller sizes can be very useful in place of a Low Saucepan. Such versatility has conferred upon this pan the name “Fait Tout,” which means “does everything.” (Note: Le Creuset makes a non-traditional “Windsor” that has slanted sides, but is relatively tall and narrow. This pan does not have the same performance characteristics as the traditional designs.)" and

 

"Curved Sauteuse Evasée (Curved Sauteuse, Saucière, Sauteuse Bombée, Saucier, Chef’s Pan): As the name suggests, this pan is otherwise similar to the Sauteuse Evasée, only with curved rather than straight sides. In smaller sizes, the curved sides provide easy access to every corner of the pan with a whisk or spoon for sauce making. In larger sizes, the curved sides facilitate one-handed tossing of the food when sautéing." (emphasis mine)

 

  I see no contradiction or distinction in what Sam wrote.  He clearly equates 'sauteuse evassee' with 'Windsor', etc.  Were I Sam's editor, I would have moved the bold sentence quoted to the end of the first paragraph, because it applies best to all these splayed geometries, not just the curved-wall variants.

 

  I'd also like to offer that any difference is one of degree masquerading as one of kind.  Unless we literally are on a desert island, we would want a large floorspace on which to saute.  But that expansive floorspace may defeat the purpose of keeping a relatively constant surface:volume ratio for reductions.  So we might reasonably agree that a 'sauteuse evassee' is a Windsor with enough floorspace to saute.

 

  These nomenclature issues can sometimes be frustrating (E.g., Try proving what a "Dutch oven" is!).  To some French chefs a 'Russe' is just a saucepan; to others, it's a taller specific pan akin to a milk pan.   

Edited November 25, 2017 by boilsover (log)

[SLB]

I totally see the equating of the sauteuse evasee with the Windsor; my question, though, is whether the splayed saute pan is the same as a sautesuse evassee/Windsor.  The section of Sam's article which gave rise to my query and [perhaps misguided] distinction was this:

 

"Sauté Pan (Sauteuse; also Curved Sauté Pan and Slant-Sided Sauté Pan): This pan has a large cooking surface and short straight sides that are approximately one quarter the diameter of the pan. The large cooking surface provides ample contact with the heat and the straight sides help contain ingredients as they are flipped around inside the pan to brown them evenly on all sides. A long, high handle helps the cook agitate the pan for even more movement. This is what it is to sauté. The French verb “sauter” means “to jump” -- so foods that are “sauté” are “jumped around in the pan.” A lid allows the addition of liquids to sautéed items for a quick braising. The Curved Sauté Pan and Slant-Sided Sauté Pan are similar, with the refinements implied by their names."

 

Later in the lecture he describes a different pan as the "sauteuse evasee", noting both the slant-sided version and the curved-sided version.  

 

I was thinking that the saute pan and the sauteuse evasee had different side-heights, and had noted that Mauviel describes both the pan in rotuts's original post and my link as a splayed sautee pan, and not as a sauteuse evasee.  So then I got confused by your seeming to equate them.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

Edited November 25, 2017 by SLB (log)

[boilsover]

39 minutes ago, SLB said:

I was thinking that the saute pan and the sauteuse evasee had different side-heights

 

I dunno.  No one has rigidly enforced any of this shape/ratio business.  Still, we try to retain some precision in what we call things in today's world of "sauciers", "Weekday" and "chef's" pans.  And in general, the form and terminology ought to follow the function.

 

I encourage you to dig deeper if you are interested.  A good seminal source is Renard's "Les Cuivres du Cuisine".  Or the vintage catalogs of the French makers of the Golden Age.

 

Have you seen any of the (mostly American) larger splayed pans whose walls are cut on a bias?  That is, the rim at the handle sits appreciably lower than it does at the opposite (far) side.  I have some confidence this was intended as a kind of "ski jump" as an aid to tossing.  I find these quite beautiful, but I have never cooked in one.

 

Cheers. 

[chromedome]

When I was teaching my skater son to cook, I explained to him that the curved sides of the pan were "a half-pipe for food." That's when the light came on, and he quickly grasped the technique after that. 

[SLB]

I am not @boilsover but that is what I'd call a Windsor pan.  One of my most used shapes.  Wish I had a copper one.  The pan you linked is not on sale...otherwise I would be tempted...except, fortunately, I am broke.

 

I hear you.  I had a reasonable year on my day-job, but the cost on that baby is, well, staggering.   

 

@boilsover, Thanks.  It sounds like whatever difference, if any, between the pan Mauviel is designating a "splayed saute pan" and the Windsor/slant-sided sauteuse evasee is insignificant.  I appreciate the responses.  

Edited November 26, 2017 by SLB (log)

[andiesenji]

Here are my two pans that when I bought them were called "Sauciers"

The Bourgeat was described as 9.5 inches, which is the interior diameter at the top - edge to edge outer lip is 10 inches.  (it came with a lid)

The other one, which is lighter and the name on the bottom is obscured by tarnish, is 9 inches in diameter, interior edge and 9.5 outer edge. (no lid)

The last photo is of the lighter and smaller one sitting inside the Bourgeat.  The handle angle is lower and flatter on the lighter one, which for me makes it easier to toss whatever I am toasting  

 

The Bourgeat is way too heavy for me to do any "tossing"  which is why I bought the lighter, slightly deeper (and cheaper) one for tossing and such. I use it for dry toasting nuts, grains and so on. Occasionally I use it for actual cooking - mostly oatmeal and other hot cereals,  but the other is my favorite - as long as I don't have to move it too much.  

 

I do have a Windsor pan around someplace but haven't used it for years.  I found that using a whisk to stir most things is far more efficient FOR ME than a spoon. 

It's one of the old style Calphalon hard anodized and was bigger (3 1/2 quart) than the All-Clad at the time which was only 2 1/2 quart and I needed greater capacity - or thought I did.

 

I use the Bourgeat for sauces, gravies, soups, frying when I am only going to be doing a few small things because I use much less oil than in a straight-sided pan.

 

Frankly, to me the saucier with round sides is much more versatile for my needs than an of the straight sided pans I have.