Cooking with clay on an electric cooktop

[Jaymes]

11 hours ago, haresfur said:

I'd still just go with a diffuser and the electric. I don't understand why there would be an advantage to gas.

 

My caution above relates to a recall of many of those small gas burners here. I tend to be pretty cavalier about these things but think you should know enough to make a considered decision.

 

I've also ordered a couple of those simmermats that someone recommended.  Going to cover all bases. 

 

And I really want to thank each of you that took time to respond to help me out.  I've really learned a lot, and I mean a lot.  I think this little butane burner is going to work just fine for me and, if I decide 'better safe than sorry' regarding using it indoors to simmer those beans for five or six hours, I'll still have it when the next hurricane blows through.  All in all, a nice thing to have.

 

For those of you that suggested a larger propane tank, believe me, that would be my first choice if I felt it were an option at all.  I've always had one of those when we lived somewhere without gas in the house and I really do miss it.  But, as I say, I live in a small apartment (650sf) with a very small balcony (40sf) by myself (so cooking for only one) in an old folks' home Active Senior Retirement Resort and a larger propane tank is just not workable.

 

But thanks again for all your suggestions.  Been kinda fun, I think.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Jaymes (log)

[Chris Hennes]

I usually make beans in the oven, using the 90-minute no-soak technique. So balance isn't much of an issue as long as it fits in the oven.

[joiei]

20 hours ago, Jaymes said:

 

 

And I was in the club car.

 

 

________________

 

I would of thought you would of been in the dining car, my lady.  

[rancho_gordo]

17 hours ago, boilsover said:

 

If what you're saying is that stoneware is a better insulator than metal, you're absolutely right.

 

But if you're saying a clay pot holds more heat than a metal pot, we need to be clear about the two pots being compared.  A material's ability to store heat is called its specific heat; it's expressed as the amount of energy (usually a calorie, Kcal or Joule) necessary to raise a given weight (usually a gram or Kg) by a degree  of temperature (usually Celsius).  Water's specific heat is 1.00 cal/gram per degree C.  Clay varies, but usually falls between 0.20 and 0.33.  By comparison, Aluminum is 0.22, and cast iron is 0.11.  So you are also correct that clay will store more heat per fixed unit of weight.

 

Note that we then have to adjust these numbers for density, because wall thicknesses of pots may (or may not) be similar, but the weights of such pots can be much different.  Kaoline clay has a density of 961 Kg/m3.  Aluminum's density is nearly three times greater at 2712, and cast iron's is 6800-7800 or 6-7x greater.  You can do the math, but when you do, you discover that the heat-holding ability of a clay pot of the same size and thickness as a metal pot, isn't much different.

 

Then you have to account for how efficiently a material moves heat--its conductivity.  And them you need to consider how easily it exchanges its stored heat with its surroundings--its thermal diffusivity adjusted for specific heat.  Clay has terrible conductivity (about 1 W/mK), whereas aluminum's is 200x greater, iron's is 55x, and copper's is 400x!  So if the idea is to take heat from an external source and apply it to food in the most efficient way possible, clay's not a good choice.  

 

After the heat is shut off, clay will contain the disproportionately large volume of heat stored in your beans' water quite well.  But you could do the same thing (actually better) if you put a metal pot in an old-time hay box oven.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haybox

 

I actually like clay pots.  At least in ovens.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll be blunt, you are sucking the joy right out of this!

All I can tell you is that it works really well, it's a gentle heat and the Mixteca people have been cooking for thousands of years with them without ovens. The beans continue to bubble when removed from the fire and stay nice and warm long after the meal is over. 

I cook twice a week with mine on a gas range. I hear others use electric just fine. 
We are just about out of them so this isn't a sales pitch, just my experience. 

[rancho_gordo]

This is one of the women in the collective prepping the clay. There is naturally talc in the clay. After it cooks, the women burnish the pieces with quartz rocks that have been in the family for generations. 

[rancho_gordo]

1. My fellow Mexican enthusiasts will experience deep pangs of desire, but these are their famous comales. They are huge. We didn't import any of them because they're also somewhat fragile. 

2. The famous quartz rock. 

3. Lourdes, who runs the whole show. Also one of the nicest women I know and she makes a fabulous mole de chivo. 

 

[boilsover]

8 hours ago, rancho_gordo said:

I'll be blunt, you are sucking the joy right out of this!
 

Sorry, not my intent.

 

I'm sure they work.  I've not cooked in a "clean boot", but I have cooked in an earthen pit oven--also used traditionally for thousands of years.  They hold heat really well, too.

 

It's really great that you support these makers and their way of life.  I hope you sell a lot of them.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

9 hours ago, rancho_gordo said:

We are just about out of them so this isn't a sales pitch, just my experience. 

 

Sorry rotuts, I needed this more than an Instant Pot.

 

[SLB]

Nice pix!  I have the pot, and cook once a week with it.  It's beautiful, and the beans are good.  The distinction that I most notice in the clay-cookery is that you won't mistakenly cook the beans until busted, they'll stay whole longer than in a metal pot.  [Some of us grew up on beans cooked until they're busted, possibly because that's how you make an old bean creamy . . . but that's another thread].

 

Anyway.  I will say, Steve is recommending that the pot be washed with soap; I bought it from another vendor, and had gotten the sense that I should not use soap or dishwasher detergent.  I did not for several months, and the pot developed a musty odor that I can't seem to get rid of.  It's not a terrible odor, and doesn't reek of rot or anything like that; but it's not exactly pleasant.  I now wash it in regular dish soap, and wish I'd done so from the beginning. 

 

Edited December 23, 2015 by SLB (log)

[Jaymes]

11 hours ago, SLB said:

Nice pix!  I have the pot, and cook once a week with it.  It's beautiful, and the beans are good.  The distinction that I most notice in the clay-cookery is that you won't mistakenly cook the beans until busted, they'll stay whole longer than in a metal pot.

 

I see your pot isn't right in the flame.  I'll admit one reason I wanted to cook with the flame is aesthetic.  I like the black sooty smoky char look on the bottoms of clay cookery - the look that clearly indicates you use it for the purpose for which it was intended.  I wonder if I'm going to be able to sit my pot right on my brand new burner, or if I'll have to use some sort of heat diffuser anyway.

 

Anybody know?

 

If so, maybe I'll just go ahead and use the electric stove and simmerpat.  And rub the bottom with ashes.  Kind of like distressing a brand new chifforobe.

 

Cheating, I know, but if it looks good...

 

 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Jaymes (log)

[Jaymes]

On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2015 at 3:37 PM, brucesw said:

Are the canisters interchangeable between different makes of burners?  They all look alike, both burners and canisters.  If so, you could pick up supplies from any of the retailers I mentioned above.  Unless there's a hurricane on the way.

 

Thanks for reminding me that I can look around and buy some at a bargain whenever I see them, at camping and hardware stores.  And probably other retailers as well.

 

Seems obvious when you think about it.

 

But I hadn't.

[palo]

1 hour ago, Jaymes said:

 

I see your pot isn't right in the flame.  I'll admit one reason I wanted to cook with the flame is aesthetic.  I like the black sooty smoky char look on the bottoms of clay cookery - the look that clearly indicates you use it for the purpose for which it was intended.  I wonder if I'm going to be able to sit my pot right on my brand new burner, or if I'll have to use some sort of heat diffuser anyway.

 

Anybody know?

 

If so, maybe I'll just go ahead and use the electric stove and simmerpat.  And rub the bottom with ashes.  Kind of like distressing a brand new chifforobe.

 

Cheating, I know, but if it looks good...

 

 

 

Clay doesn't like rapid changes in temperature - high heat is fine if it takes a while getting there - the same would be true of removing it from the heat and placing it on a cold counter

 

p

[rancho_gordo]

Quote

I see your pot isn't right in the flame.  I'll admit one reason I wanted to cook with the flame is aesthetic.  I like the black sooty smoky char look on the bottoms of clay cookery - the look that clearly indicates you use it for the purpose for which it was intended.  I wonder if I'm going to be able to sit my pot right on my brand new burner, or if I'll have to use some sort of heat diffuser anyway.

 

Sometimes after things are rolling, I turn the heat down low. I want just the most gentle simmer. I've got all day and the beans don't need rushing. Even at its lowest, it can still be too much, so then I use the simmer mat. 

But the pot can go right on the flame. 

 

Somewhere someone mentioned i recommend soap. I don't! You can if you need it but it should be very little and mild and a thorough rinse.

Years ago on a previous clay thread here PaulaWolfert recommended rubbing with olive oil after. 

[SLB]

I know this pot can go right on the flame (unlike some of my other clay pots).  The only reason I use the simmermat is because the base of the pot is relatively small, and it needs to be keenly balanced on my grate (which has an open space in the middle).  It's tipple-y, and makes me a little nervous.  Also, it does not help that I never totally levelled my stove.  Don't ask, I know it's raggedy.  And it's just a slight tilt.  But with a narrow base, and 3 quarts of material, and an expensive beauty that will break . . . .

 

On the soap -- that was me, Steve, I don't know where I saw that or why I thought that.  Duly corrected!  

 

But -- you got any tips on the musty-must, tho?  It's kind of like a wet clay smell, but it persists long after the clay should be thoroughly dry.

[rancho_gordo]

I think it's ok, i just don't want to be the one to say you must do it.

I sometimes saute aromatics in oil or lard in the bottom of the pot before adding the beans and water and soap just seems like a smart idea! 
If somehow you get a nasty mess, a paste made with water and baking soda is a good idea. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by rancho_gordo (log)

[boilsover]

5 hours ago, rancho_gordo said:

But the pot can go right on the flame. 

 

 

Yes of course it can go on the flame (or into coals).  The Euro lines using Burgundian clay (e.g., some Emile Henry) are similarly suitable, but breakage is always a big issue.

 

All this talk of canisters, daylong cooking, flame tamers, etc. brings me to the question:  Other than for sweating or sauteing your mirrepoix, why wouldn't Jaymes and everyone be better off simply putting this clay pot in an oven when it's not on beautiful display on a shelf?  I mean, I get why, if you have a hearth fire, or solid top also cooking other things simultaneously, stove- or trivet-top might get used, but given the nature of the material, isn't an oven a no-brainer? 

[rancho_gordo]

15 hours ago, boilsover said:

 

Yes of course it can go on the flame (or into coals).  The Euro lines using Burgundian clay (e.g., some Emile Henry) are similarly suitable, but breakage is always a big issue.

 

All this talk of canisters, daylong cooking, flame tamers, etc. brings me to the question:  Other than for sweating or sauteing your mirrepoix, why wouldn't Jaymes and everyone be better off simply putting this clay pot in an oven when it's not on beautiful display on a shelf?  I mean, I get why, if you have a hearth fire, or solid top also cooking other things simultaneously, stove- or trivet-top might get used, but given the nature of the material, isn't an oven a no-brainer? 

 

I appreciate your enthusiasm but but please stop saying breakage is "always a big issue". It's simply not true. It's like saying cooking on gas stove means you will have a fire in your kitchen. It can happen but with a very few steps, it's just not an issue. 

 

This pot is not designed to be used in an oven. It would be awkward. A lidded cazuela would be more appropriate if that's what you wanted to do. The bowl that sits on top of the neck opening is for holding water that you can add as needed to the pot (cold water is considered a shock to the beans and thought to keep them from getting soft.) Getting this in and out as needed would be very awkward. 

 

But I have a serious "issue" with "collecting" clay pots, especially from Mexico. OK, I am an addict. I have dozens (and dozens) of them. Some cook hotter, some have a more mineral flavor they impart, some taste smokey- they're all different. I cook beans twice a week from this pot, a have three or four cazuelas I use regularly and many other specialty pieces. Knock wood, I have never had one break from direct flame or heat. EVER. They break when well-meaning guests insist on helping with the dishes and drop them on my floor. Or when you accidentally put another piece on top of them without thinking.

 
I also have Italian, French, Spanish, Moroccan and Egyptian pieces. These tend to be just as different and in the case of the Egyptian especially, they're much more delicate and I have had them break from heat. Until you've worked with this clay from this area from these artisans, I don't think you should be speaking in absolutes about it. 

Edited December 24, 2015 by rancho_gordo (log)

[boilsover]

1 hour ago, rancho_gordo said:

I appreciate your enthusiasm but but please stop saying breakage is "always a big issue". It's simply not true.  

 

We differ, sorry.  Even moderate surface temperature deltas can and do break all clays, as do physical shocks while being under thermal stress, e.g.,  from dropping from even small distances.  Ask any retailer of Emile Henry's stovetop line what their warranty/return rate is.  Buyers should know this before they send you their money.

 

Clay cookware is a little like modern soda-lime "Pyrex".  Some people never experience breakage, but a lot of us do, despite taking precautions.

 

Happy Holidays!

[rancho_gordo]

Wow. 
That's all I have. 

[djyee100]

The key is to remember that clay is slow to heat and slow to cool. If you protect it from thermal shock, it survives much better. Paula Wolfert wrote an excellent claypot primer in her cookbook Mediterranean Clay Pot Cooking. It is available for reading on Googlebooks. Scroll to page xvii for clay pot care.
https://books.google.com/books?id=iHh19M8YNxEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=wolfert+mediterranean+claypot+cooking&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNraevqPXJAhUEy2MKHcX2D08Q6AEIMjAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

I've used diffusers on electric coil and ceramic top stoves. I've used the cheap wire diffusers (which I was told not to use   ) and also this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Nordic-Ware-Tamer-Burner-Plate/dp/B00004W4UJ/ref=sr_1_24?ie=UTF8&qid=1450988576&sr=8-24&keywords=amazon+heat+diffuser

 

My clay pots and the cooking turned out just fine. My method is to start the clay pot on medium-low heat and gradually increase the heat. Clay pots can take a lot of heat as long as you're slow about it. When I'm done cooking, if I decide to be extra careful, I set the pot on a towel to cool slowly. Clay pots are great for braises; at best they act like little ovens for moist cooking. They provide even, moderate heat, and coddle the food. But clay pots are lousy for searing. I gave up trying to brown meat or vegs in them. I sear in a metal skillet, transfer the ingredients to the clay pot, deglaze the skillet and add the juices to the clay pot. Yes, you can do the whole business in a cast iron Le Creuset. But I prefer the results I've gotten from the more gentle heat in clay.

 

The simmermats were highly recommended to me though I chose not to buy one. I think you'll be fine there.

 

I've only experienced serious breakage with some old Emile Henry stoneware. I was using the pans for roasting, which you're not supposed to do. The uneven distribution of ingredients on the surface of the pans causes uneven heating, a kind of thermal shock. Then, since I'm such a practical housekeeper, I was adding cold tap water after cooking so the pan would be easier to clean. More thermal shock. CRR-AACK. I lost all but one of my EH pans before I did my research and figured out what was wrong. No more roasting in my stoneware pans.

 

[SLB]

I have never heard of a pyrex dish breaking, under any circumstances!  I confess I'm stunned at the possibility.  Also, kind of intrigued.  

 

However.   My Emile Henry baking dish has a long, infuriatingly in-your-face crack in it.  I don't have any idea how it happened, and I still use the dish, which maybe is foolish.  But it was one of the most expensive things I had ever purchased at the time, and it was so pretty . . . and I am still annoyed about the crack.  I just did not think of the pan as precious, you know?  I thought all that money meant that it was a strong tool!  [In retrospect, I don't think it cost like a fortune or anything, I just bought it when I was a broke graduate student, and probably shouldn't've been buying anything].

 

One follow up -- the diffuser in my photo is not the SimmerMat, but rather is the one by Ilsa.  I do own the justly famous SimmerMat as well, though, and want to note that my Mixteca pot does NOT balance comfortably on its knobs, at least not on the design that I have.  It sits fine when the simmermat is inverted for use on the glass cook-top side.  I think Jaymes had said she was foregoing the diffusers all around, and the point has been made that this clay pot can take the direct flame; but I did want to make sure to point out that my pot sits on the Ilsa in the photo, just in case anyone was about to buy themselves a SimmerMat.  

 

<edited for gender mistake!>

 

Edited December 25, 2015 by SLB (log)

[dscheidt]

14 minutes ago, SLB said:

I have never heard of a pyrex dish breaking, under any circumstances!  I confess I'm stunned at the possibility.  Also, kind of intrigued.  

 

 

 

They certainly have always broken if you dropped them.

 

There's been something of a panic over exploding pyrex dishes (or was, a few years ago, I haven't heard as much about it lately).

 

Pyrex is made of tempered soda lime glass (ordinary window glass, with a heat treatment to make it stronger and tougher, and change how it breaks).  It's been like that for some time, since at least the mid 1990s, when Corning spun off the business.  One of the properties of tempered glass is that any chip or crack will eventually cause a failure, and it's likely to be a dramatic failure.  And, of course, once the pan is in 10,000 pieces, its impossible to tell whether there was existing damage or not.  it's also possible they didn't the heat treating as well as it should have been done (cheaper to do it fast, takes less energy....).

 

  Older stuff might be made of borosilicate glass (or might not: I have corning made pie plates that are soda glass based on color and density), which doesn't rely on tempering for heat resistance.  Chipped borosilicate glass can still fail unexpectedly, and it's likely to do that when under stress (like putting a cold pan in a hot oven.)

[boilsover]

11 hours ago, SLB said:

I have never heard of a pyrex dish breaking, under any circumstances!  I confess I'm stunned at the possibility.  Also, kind of intrigued.  

 

 

Hi, SLB:

 

  Yes, it happens all the time.  Most times it's traceable to no-brainer mistakes, like placing a hot dish on a cold or wet counter.  But a lot of times, there's no discernible reason or timing.  When it goes, it definitely deconstructs, sometimes violently.  People have been seriously hurt.  The reason it's a hazard is that the soda-lime glass now used can only tolerate a small temperature delta.  Add in the stresses stored in the formed glass and abrasions that come with wear, and you have a very unpredictable outcome.

 

  Here's a detailed discussion of the phenomenon.  http://www.chowhound.com/post/consumer-reports-investigates-exploding-pyrex-751340

 

Cheers!

[SLB]

Thanks.  As I indicated, it's not a phenomenon that I've come across, interesting that it's so common.  In any case, both my pyrex pieces were new a good decade before the mid-90s, and both have been dropped more than once; hence my thinking on the matter.  

 

Wishing everyone a shatter-free season of good eating.  SLB.

[boilsover]

1 hour ago, SLB said:

...interesting that it's so common.

 

Considering that there are tens of millions of these soda-lime bakeware pieces in use, it would be incorrect to think of the hazard as a coin toss.  But it would also be incorrect to think of it as a Powerball ticket.

 

Owens Corning and World Kitchen were sued awhile back for personal injury, and in the course of that litigation it was discovered that over 2,000 people in the US and Canada had been injured.

 

The odd thing is that many cooks who've not (yet) had this happen to them will deny it happens at all, or refuse to believe it can happen without misuse.  And the makers' "instructions" are more of a risk-management firewall than useful information.  For instance, buried in the fine print are warnings not to use the wares under broilers or in toaster ovens.  Basically, Pyrex should not be used within 5 inches of an active oven coil.  Few consumers know that, before or after buying.

 

Yes, may we all keep our eyes and fingers this Holiday Season!

Edited December 25, 2015 by boilsover (log)