Complexity or clutter in tasting menus

[Jonathan Day]

Topic proposed by Jonathan Day

NickN has started an interesting thread on Escoffier, who composed many long, complex menus.

This thread is only incidentally about Escoffier; rather, it is about the length and complexity of menus.

In 1908, "the chef of kings" prepared a special tasting menu at the London Ritz for twelve guests, among them the future King George V. Daniel Rogov’s internet page (http://www.stratsplace.com/rogov) presents the menu, along with valuable commentary and context. Note that it was served as a procession of courses, not a banquet where a diner might choose some four of the fifteen courses offered:

• Melon halves filled with Beluga caviar
  Clear turtle soup
  Cold velouté of chicken soup
  Roast chicken stuffed with wild rice and truffles
  Welsh lamb with fresh peas.
  Lemon-ginger sorbet
  Trout filled with fresh herbs and grilled
  Duckling breasts in port wine aspic
  Quails with grapes
  Sorbet of pink grapefruit
  Artichoke hearts in mustard sauce
  Lettuce salad with a mint and honey vinaigrette
  Peaches poached in vanilla sauce
  Petits fours
  Selection of fruits
  

Impressive, and no doubt fit for a future king. But many of us would consider such a menu overly complex, difficult to eat, and, simply, too much food. Apart from a once-in-a-lifetime challenge (rather like the restaurant in Amarillo, Texas where anyone who can consume a 6 pound steak in 1 hour gets it for free), Escoffier’s menu doesn’t sound like a satisfying way to eat.

How much less satisfying would a menu of this length be if it were designed by a lesser chef?

As Robert and I were discussing this thread, he mentioned Ferran Adria's 25 course tasting menu at El Bulli, which didn't collapse under its own weight. And, he pointed out, we don't know the portion sizes Escoffier served, though I would guess they were larger than the spoonsful and tiny tastes on offer at many restaurants today.

At what point does a multi-course menu tip from bounty into clutter and excess complexity?

Here, by the way, is another Escoffier menu, with my translation and explication. More knowledgeable members may be able to correct errors and help fill in details, e.g. Salade Isabelle, which I do not have. Again, note its length and complexity.

• Frivolitiés
  Mixed hors d'oeuvres
  Caviar frais
  Chilled caviar
  Blinis de Sarrasin
  Buckwheat blinis
  Oursins de la Méditerranée
  Sea urchins
  Consommé aux nids d'Hirondelles
  Consommé with swallows' nests. Were these the classic Chinese birds' nests, or some sort of pastry or potato construction made to look like nests?
  Velouté Dame Blanche
  Cream soup of the "White Lady"
  Sterlet du Volga à la Moscovite
  Sterlet is a rare sturgeon that lives between the fresh and salt rivers in the Caspian
  Barquette de Laitance à la Vénetienne
  Soft fish roes in pastry boats
  Chapon fin aux Perles du Périgord
  Capon with "pearls of the Périgord" (truffles?)
  Cardon épineux à la Toulousaine
  "Spiny" cardoons
  Selle de Chevreuil aux Cerises
  Saddle of venison with cherries
  Suprême d'Ecrevisse au Champagne
  Crayfish in a cream sauce with Champagne
  Mandarines Givrées
  Sorbet of mandarin oranges, probably served in the hollowed-out shells of the oranges
  Terrine de Caille sous la cendre, aux Raisins
  Terrine of quail cooked on a wood fire ("under the ashes") with grapes
  Bécassine rosée au feu de Sarment
  Pink or pale snipe, cooked over vine cuttings (or does "rosée" refer to the degree of doneness?)
  Salade Isabelle
  Salad "Isabelle"
  Asperges sauce Mousseline
  Asparagus with mousseline sauce
  Délice de Foie Gras
  A foie gras preparation
  Soufflé de Grenade à l'Orientale
  Pomegranate soufflé "oriental style"
  Biscuit glace aux Violettes
  Iced cake with violets
  Mignardises
  Petits fours
  Fruits de Serre Chaude
  Hothouse fruits
  Grandes Liqueurs
  Fine-Champagne 1830
  

Source: "Menu de Noël", from the Escoffier site at the Académie de Dijon: click here

[Nick]

In 1908, "the chef of kings" prepared a special tasting menu at the London Ritz...

• Melon halves filled with Beluga caviar
  Clear turtle soup
  Cold velouté of chicken soup
  Roast chicken stuffed with wild rice and truffles
  Welsh lamb with fresh peas.
  Lemon-ginger sorbet
  Trout filled with fresh herbs and grilled
  Duckling breasts in port wine aspic
  Quails with grapes
  Sorbet of pink grapefruit
  Artichoke hearts in mustard sauce
  Lettuce salad with a mint and honey vinaigrette
  Peaches poached in vanilla sauce
  Petits fours
  Selection of fruits
  

Assuming each were no more than a few "mouthfuls", it is a menu that makes me wish I had been there. It seems like "down-home" cooking compared to some of the offerings today.

[Bond Girl]

I once had the spring tasting menu at Alain Ducasse, and found that was too much by New York Standards. I lost count of the courses after seven different dishes were placed in front of me. I stopped tasting the difference in food soon after that because I was simply too tired and too full to pay attention.

The whole experience was over four hours long. At the end of the evening my back hurt from sitting too long, my foot felt asleep, and my other three dinner companions were drunk as skunks.

Edited January 11, 2003 by Bond Girl (log)

[wingding]

Just one persons' opinion,but it's often just too much....if I can't remember everything that I ate,and if it all exists in my experience and memory as some kind of overloaded haze,then ultimately...so what?I'd rather go somewhere for one dish,or maybe two,or three,really knockout delicious,than some endless parade of dishes,which ultimately,leave me numbed,and tired.The madeleine,consumed on a street in Paris,or a hot dog at Katzs',or a gelato in Salerno...one great,pure taste,will live on in my memory more than some endless,exhausting meal..

[robert brown]

I beg to differ, but the Christmas dinner of Escoffier is one I would die for, literally and figurtively. In today's world, however, I have a prediliction dining "a la carte". While it is very easy to turn this thread into a pro or con tasting menu discussion or argument, I will say that often we do not hear the rationale of the chef for presenting or designing a tasting menu. Often, these menus do get out of control and appear like they are made almost randomly. Of course you often hear from the server or from reading the printed menu that the tastng menu is based on the "market" or what is fresh that day. This can fly in the face of what the chef or the well-coached server might say about mixing various taste or palate components in order to offer a well-conceived menu. Unfortunately, in my opinion, a menu often tips the way the thread starter mentions (over the edge of the comfort zone) when it is used to lavish a regular customer or a friend of the chef or restaurant owner. This is nice when it happens to you and not so nice when you watch someone else being lavished. All things considered, I think everyone in a restaurant should be treated equally.

In general, I believe that a tasting menu tips over the edge when a mediocre chef makes you cry "uncle" after just a few courses because you know that you are simply dining to sate your appetite. The better the chef, the more he can comfortably get away with as far as the number of dishes and the quantity of food he provides in his tasting menu.

[snowangel]

Just one persons' opinion,but it's often just too much....if I can't remember everything that I ate,and if it all exists in my experience and memory as some kind of overloaded haze,then ultimately...so what?I'd rather go somewhere for one dish,or maybe two,or three,really knockout delicious

I am reminded of a lunch we would have once a year when I was growing up in Thailand. On our annual New Year's trip to Phuket for scuba diving, we spent one night in Hua Hin. We always ate at the same place...a little hole in the wall (actually on a corner), that had a very limited menu.

We always had crab fried rice. The crabs were jumping in the basket. Fresh, fresh, fresh. The ingredients (I watched them cook): leftover rice, crab (chunks at least as big as your thumb), scallions, eggs, Tiparo fish sauce. Garnishes: cilantro (whole leaves) and lime wedges.

One dish, complex but without confusion. The memory of that meal far eclipses that of the lunch we had at French Laundry last year. I don't know how much the later cost, but the former used to be 10 baht ($.50) per plate. And, with the former, memorable without taking home a menu or writing down exactly what you had.

Yes, sometimes, and for some of us, less is more.

[wingding]

In many cases,nowadays,tasting menus have been set up as a vehicle to insure that people are going to spend a good amount of money while taking up table space.There isn't always a lot of thought about the progression of dishes,and cumilative effect of eating fish,meat,sauces,wines,blah,blah.By the time the entrees start rolling in,my palate is already tired,and the flavors just stop being interesting...that isn't all that makes a good dining experience,and I guess glorious excess is an experience in itself,on occasion.

[cabrales]

In 1908, "the chef of kings" prepared a special tasting menu at the London Ritz for twelve guests, among them the future King George V. ...

Melon halves filled with Beluga caviar

Clear turtle soup

Cold velouté of chicken soup

Roast chicken stuffed with wild rice and truffles

Welsh lamb with fresh peas.

Lemon-ginger sorbet

Trout filled with fresh herbs and grilled

Duckling breasts in port wine aspic

Quails with grapes

Sorbet of pink grapefruit

Artichoke hearts in mustard sauce

Lettuce salad with a mint and honey vinaigrette

Peaches poached in vanilla sauce

Petits fours

Selection of fruits

On Escoffier, note the number of dishes on the quoted menu becomes eleven when two palate-cleansing sorbets, the petit fours and the fruit are removed. I have had approximately this many number of courses many times, albeit in tasting menu portions.

For example, Berasategui in Lasarte Oria, near San Sebastian, Spain:

Below is Berasategui´s current tasting menu (at 88 euros, years indicate date of creation of applicable dish).

Amuses:

-- Palourdes crus a l´huile olive (a type of European clam, raw with olive oil)

-- Filet d'anchois avec de la tapendae (anchovy filet with olive tapenade)

-- Soupe de lentilles (Lentil soup)

-- Toast au fromage et jambon Iberique (toast with cheese and Spanish ham)

-- 1995 Millefeuille caramelise d´anguille fumee, foie gras, petits oignons et pommes verte (Millefeuille caramelized of smoked eel, foie gras, small onions and green apples)

-- 2002 Mosaique de coquilles Saint-Jacques et huitre, accompangnee dún coulis gelantineux de corail (Mosaic of scallops and oysters, accompanied by a gelatinous coulis of the corail of the scallops)

-- 2002 Salade tiede de coeur de chou-fleur avec d´anchois d´ail, creme a la laiture de ferme et jus iode (Warm salad of the heart of cauliflower with garlic-flavored anchovies, a cream of farm lettuce and a seafood-flavored jus)

-- 1999 Gelatine chaude aux fruits de mer avec soupe dánis etoile et sorbet au fenouil (Hot Gelatine of seafood with a star anise soup and a sorbet of fennel)

-- 2001 Chipiron Saute avec son encre en raviolis cremeux ( Squid sauteed with its own ink in a ravioli)

-- 2002 Truffe Noire avec betterave, salade liquide aux herbes et fromage Mont d´Or (Black truffles with beetroot, liquid salad of herbs and Vacherin Mont d´Or French cheese, this dish carries a supplement of 15 euros or so)

-- 2002 Foie gras chaud avec soupe de chataignes roties au cardamome (Hot foie gras with a chestnut soup roasted in cardamom)

-- 2002 Bar Roti avec Vinaigrette acidulee aux pistaches et creme aux tubercules a l´ancienne (Bass roasted with an acidic vinaigrette, with pistachios and a cream of potatoes?)

-- 2002 Cerf Grille avec son propre boudin saute, cerises, pommes douces et tuille croustillante (Deer grilled with its own sausage, cherries, gentle apples and a crunchy tuille, of beetroot)

-- 1998 Pieds de Porc Iberique Farcis, Avec Crouton de Cepes et Fromage Idiazabal (Pigs´Feet from Patta Negra pigs stuffed, with a crouton with porcini and Idiazabal cheese, this was not from the tasting menu and was ordered in a half-portion size at less thn 15 euros)

-- 2002 Desert au Chocolat au The (bonbon, glace, creme caille et granite) (Chocolate dessert with tea -- candy, ice cream, creme caille and a granite)

-- 1999 Cafe au lait glace, soupes caramelisees et pruneaux (Ice cream of coffee with milk, caramelized brioches and prunes)

Recently, I took in ten courses during a very good meal at Jean Bardet's Chateau Belmont in Tours. I ordered the Menu Legumes du Potager de Jean Bardet (Vegetables Menu from the Garden of Jean Bardet), and added full or half-servings of a number of a la carte dishes. I was eager to sample Chef Bardet's cuisine for the first time:

-- Amuses -- Little pastry items, including gougere and a pastry fan with a salmon quenelle

-- Le veloute de Topinamobours Roses de Rennes a la truffe noire du Perigord (Veloute of Jerusalem artichoke of the type "Roses de Renne" with Perigord black truffles

-- Barigoule d'artichaut violet, creme de basilic (Artichokes with basil cream)

-- La Courge "Jack Be Little" Fourree de Legumes ("Jack Be Little" Squash Stuffed with Vegetables)

-- Le Civet Gourmand de Homard Bleu de l'Atlantique et Petits Crustaces au Vieux Vouvray Epice de Gingembre et Citron Vert (Lobster of the Atlantic with Small Shellfish, Old Vouvray, Ginger and Lime) -- 1/2 portion from a la carte

-- Mi-Fume de Saumon Vapeur, Ventriche, Feves et Pois Gourmands au Haddock (Half-Smoked Salmon cooked in steam, variation of bacon, feve beans and peas with haddock) -- Full portion from a la carte

-- La Poelee de Racines, Topinambours, Panais, Cerfeuil Tubereux, Helianthis, Persil Racine, Emulsion de la Truffe (Pan-Fried Root Vegetables with Truffle Emulsion)

-- L'Assiette "Verte" de Legumes d'Hiver, Yaourt Bulgare au piment d'Esplette ("Green" Plate of Winter Vegetables, Yoghurt and Esplette peppers) -- Full portion from a la carte

-- Jambonnettes de cuisses de grenouilles dorees au beurre sale, des pieds d'agneaux et quelques champignons sautes (Frogs' legs sauteed in salted butter, with various mushrooms) -- 1/2 portion from a la carte

-- Les Aubergines cristallisees, glace au pelargonium, figue fraiche et creme de badione (Eggplant dessert, geranium ice cream, fresh figs)

-- Dessert variation with five small desserts, including La Pastilla a la fleur d'oranger

I drank a glass of house champagne (Demoiselles de Vranken, Cuvee Jean Bardet, bottled for the chef) and a bottle of Laville Haut-Brion 1993 (79 euros; a wonderful price).

At Zuberoa, I took in the following tasting menu (under 85 euros):

-- Amuse of pigeon consomme

-- Oysters in gelee of seawater (cold; comp'd and not part of the stated tasting menu)

-- Caramel de crustaces a la gelee de pampelmousse, pommes de terre et caviar (A caramel of shellfish with grapefruit gelee, potatoes and caviar)

-- Coquilles Saint-Jacques poelee sur puree de potiron et sauce fumee (Pan-fried scallops on a pumpkin puree with a smoky sauce)

-- Huitre tiede avec sauce parfume a son propre jus (Warm oyster with a sauce perfumed with its own jus)

-- Jaune d'oeuf poche et risotto au chipiron (Poached egg yolk with a squid risotto)

-- Chipiron (squid) with onion and squid ink sauce

-- Foie gras

-- Morue aux legumes confits, sauce emulsionnee et huiles aux olives noires (Cod with confit vegetables, sauce and oils of black olives)

-- Palombe rotie au romarin et chou vert truffe (Wood pigeon or special pigeon from Southern France, roasted with rosemary and truffled cabbage)

-- Green apple soup (On the tasting menu, this is a chocolate item, but the restaurant offered a switch after I indicated the chocolate dessert could be omitted.  That is the way to politely pursue a switch, I have found, although one has to be ready to have the request for an omitted dish taken up on.)

-- Croustillant aux fruits secs fourre de flan au fromage, verbeine et sauce aux fromages (Croustillant of dried fruits containing a cheese flan, verbena and a cheese sauce)

The wine was Rueda "Belondrade & Lurten" 2000 (35 euros), a Spanish white. With the palombe dish, I took in a glass of Rioja Marques de Tomares Reserva 1996.  The glass was comp'd, as were the samplings of oysters in gelee (which I had ordered), the chipirons after the egg yolk dish, the aperatif (the house recommended a local beer brewed by an affiliate, "Pagoa Brand, Orhi", a Pilsner) and the dessert wine.

I'm not confused by a tasting menu with a large number of dishes. First, the dishes obviously arrive sequentially and, at least in France if not in Spain, my experience has been the presence of some gap (at least 5-10 minutes, if not more) between the arrival time of dishes. Second, while it would be better to sample ten or eleven dishes over the course of, say, two meals, there are many restaurants to visit and the diner may have allocated only one meal to the establishment in question. In this case, the choice is between having fewer courses and not sampling the additional dishes, on one hand, and stretching oneself slightly and "going for it". Third, while I do not like leaving food that tastes good on my plate, I would do so if I had "capacity" issues and still wanted to sample a large number of dishes. Fourth, the intellectual enjoyment of a dish is not affected because I focus on each dish when it is before me. I take notes and photos, thereby preserving my assessments of each dish.

I don't have a preference for lengthier tasting menus, but neither do I have an aversion to them.

[Jonathan Day]

Digging around a bit, I found a series of extracts from Escoffier's Livre des Menus (1922) in which he discusses the architecture of menus. It seemed so relevant to this debate (as well as to NickN's Escoffier thread) that I took the time to translate it. Escoffier was pushing for shorter and lighter menus, in keeping with a trend he had identified toward lighter eating.

Without equal perfection in the composition of the menu and its execution, the slightest fault stands out, and the smallest error is obvious to the diner. This effect actually increases as the menu becomes more elaborate and artistic.

A menu is both a summary of the cook's work and a programme for the gourmand. Creating one is far more difficult than people think. It's not just a matter of writing down a list of a certain number of dishes, following known tastes or a set budget, but of choosing these dishes with discernment, grouping them "harmonically" and creating, out of these simple notes, an orchestration of flavours.

A well-composed menu immediately gives the impression of the chef's confidence, capabilities, and spirit -- a spirit that is both balanced and deeply knowledgeable of every resource of the culinary arts. It is not sufficient that the menu be correct from a purely gastronomic perspective. If it is to be perfect, it must also be harmonised with the spiritual state of the host and the guest; the menu must both reflect these states and lead them to new heights.

A menu should always be as short as circumstances will allow. This is essential. In future, we will necessarily see a reduction in the size of meals, proving the validity of our insistence that menus become shorter.

He then goes on to describe the development of the "lighter" menu.

In times past, hors d'oeuvres and soups played the role of apéritifs. These were followed with dishes called removes (relevés): large portions of fish, meat (red meats, fowl, game), sauced and garnished, so-called because they were served when the soups had been "removed" from the table.

We don't see these removes, anymore, at least not presented as they used to be, that is large cuts of meat presented whole to the diners. Nowadays, they are sliced into serving portions before being brought to the table. This style is far better adapted to fast service, with the dishes appearing hot. The removes are now used as a sort of starter. Though they begin the dinner, the removes make up a substantial part of it.

Nowadays, even at the most elegant and refined dinners, removes are often omitted. In this case the fish course must follow the soups or hors d'oeuvres, since modern practice insists that the first course be made only of fish, with the exception of fasting menus (maigres, as in Lent). Furthermore, it is sometimes the case that shellfish will be served either as cold first courses, often in the form of a mousse, or as a cold main course; this is a survival of ancient gastronomic customs, and it is increasingly rarely seen today.

In the absence of removes, the fish is followed by small servings of red meat, and then fowl or game. These can be followed by small servings of hot mousses, soufflés and other "made" dishes (not pieces of meat or fish, but dishes that have been "worked" e.g. galantines), including cold ones when the dinner calls for them.

Sorbets end this first part of the dinner, which corresponds to the "first service" in the old French school. Then come the hot roasts (les Rôts), often accompanied by a salad; then a cold "roast": this could be a pâté, a terrine, or a parfait of foie gras; a truffled pâté, Terrine or Galantine of fowl; a fine cold ham; or cold crayfish.

Cold "roasts" of lobster or spiny lobster (langouste) are fine for lunch, but should never appear on a dinner menu. These dishes are far too heavy and difficult to digest to be served at the end of an evening meal.

A vegetable, a hot or cold sweet, an ice accompanied by petits fours and a variety of fruits complete the menu.

All of these guidelines are for classic menus; they are the rules through which one can create, in each season, the "typical" or "ideal" menu.

-------------------

Some notes on this translation: first, remember that Escoffier's lighter menu still follows the fundamental architecture of a two-part meal, with a sorbet between the parts. Second, the term "entrée" is highly ambiguous, and is often best translated "side dish" or "small dish". It sometimes means "entrée" in the modern European sense, i.e. a first course. It never has the American sense of a main course. Finally, "roasts" (les Rôts) does not always mean a dish that has been roasted; sometimes it just means a substantial dish, such as a "roast" of lobster or a pâté.

It seems clear that Escoffier was as concerned about the architecture of menus in 1922 as we are today.

[Jonathan Day]

I'm not confused by a tasting menu with a large number of dishes. ... I don't have a preference for lengthier tasting menus, but neither do I have an aversion to them.

Cabrales, in light of your experience (and perhaps considering the Escoffier quote above) are there design or "architectural" elements in a multi-course tasting menu that make it more or less satisfying for you?

I find, for example, that too many salty tastes in the first part of a tasting menu get in the way of my enjoyment later on. This is difficult, because the classic openers in many cuisines are salty: olives, nuts, anchovies. In composing a menu, how can you awaken and energise the palate without stimulating it to the point of exhaustion before the meal is over?

[Jonathan Day]

Escoffier's lighter menu still follows the fundamental architecture of a two-part meal, with a sorbet between the parts.

To correct an error in the earlier post: a menu for service à la française was divided into three parts, not two.

Part 1: from soup to roasts, including hors d'oeuvres and entrées.

Part 2: from roasts and cold second roasts to vegetables and sweet dishes

Part 3: pastries, set pieces (both of these could be savoury), petits fours, sweets, ices, fruits.

An example from Massialot's Le cuisinier royal et bourgeois (1691):

• First service. a piece of beef garnished with pies and sweetbreads; pigeon and capon soup with lettuce and asparagus tips; spit-roasted chicken and fillet steaks with lettuce on one side, hot rabbit pâté and goslings with asparagus tips on the other.
  Second service. roasts: two chickens, two hares, eight pigeons, with two salads and two sauces in separate dishes.
  Third service. A spit-roasted ham, cream tart, choux pastries; a ham loaf and skewered sweetbreads; a ragout of mushrooms and asparagus; fruit.
  

The first two services, especially, were supposed to be roughly of the same length and number of dishes.

Source: Larousse Gastronomique, chef Bertrand Simon's website (click here)

[cabrales]

Below are A Escoffier's musings on his own prix fixe menus, as documented in "Auguste Escoffier. Memories of my Life" (translated by Laurence Escoffier):

At the Savoy, "it was time to move quickly with new ideas to be able to attract the attention of the elite in English society. We started our innovations immediately. We had already noticed ... that our English clients, faced wtih a la carte menus written in French that they could not understand, often asked the maitre d'hotel to order the meal for them. This was the same case at the Savoy, where the menus were also written in French. Together, [Cesar] Ritz, [L] Echenard [a mutual friend of Ritz and Escoffier who worked at the Ritz], and I agreed to change this by creating a prix fixe menu that contained most of the items offered on the a la carte menu. There had to be a minimum of four people at the table to order a prix fixe meal, and I took care of composing the menus myself. ... When a client requested a prix fixe menu, the maitre d'hotel would take down his name in a notebook, including the number of people in the party ... He would immediately send me the order, and I would then *invent a menu*. I kept a carbon copy of the menu I had composed in a special book so that the next time the same person ordered a prix fixe meal, I could be sure not to serve him the same dishes twice. I had great freedom in the composition of these menus, which enabled me to vary them at will and thus produce many new creations. Our prix fixe menus became ver popular and played a *large part* in the success of the Savoy. They still existed forty years after they were implemented...."

The above excerpt indicates that Escoffier's prix fixe menus were not tasting menus in the sense commonly understood in modern-day top-tier restaurants (i.e., prestated menus available to all guests in the same manner). Escoffier's prix fixe menus were less standardized, and more of a creative outlet. Escoffier notes that he "took special pleasure in composing these meus, both to please my customers and to satisfy my own pride." It is also interesting that the above excerpt could be viewed as an indication of the marketing considerations Escoffier may have taken into account.

Later in Escoffier's autobiography, he notes that "[t]he system of prix fixe meals for a table of at least four that we had offered at the Savoy proved to be just as popular when we offered it at the Carlton." Several examples of the Carlton prix fixe menus are then furnished.

Edited January 13, 2003 by cabrales (log)

[Wilfrid]

I think Nickn put his finger on something when he said the first Escoffier menu on the thread reminded him of down-home cooking. The dishes, as far as the menu is any guide, do appear to be relatively simple, consisting in most cases of a main ingredient with one accompaniment or garnish. I find the menu appealing, although it is sobering to note that Escoffier was working at reducing the number of courses.

At the other extreme, we have examples of multi-course menus featuring individual dishes of what appear to be considerable complexity. The courses at Berasategui, posted by Cabby, sound dramatic but also intricate and very rich: pig's feet with cheese, foie gras with smoked eel, seafood jelly with an anise soup and a fennel sorbet; I don't doubt this could be well done and a wonderful meal, but in the wrong hands a menu of this kind might present an exhausting series of challenges to the palate (not to mention the stomach and liver). I sympathise with Bond Girl's comments about ADNY; the meal there is not only long but also rich, and it can become a test of stamina, albeit pleasurable, in the later stages.

So we have, on the one hand, architecturally complex menus, and on the other hand architecturally complex dishes, and neither necessarily entails the other. I recently re-visited Bill Grimes' exhibition of old New York menus at the New York Public Library (unfortunately, without a notebook). Not only are some of the menus as long as you might expect, there is also an elaboration in the dishes which borders on the nauseating. Alfred Stockli, at The Forum of the Twelve Caesars, was offering as recently as the 1960s, multiple course menus in which fish, meat and fowl were stuffed and glazed and sauced and garnished, with dramatic combinations of fruits and liquors, beyond anything one could imagine would be enjoyable.

But I bet a lot of skill and training was required to produce such dishes.

We rightly praise sophisticated menus and technical virtuosity when we discuss restaurants on eGullet. But are there not limits? Do we say enough in praise of simplicity, restraint and self-discipline when it comes to conceiving both menus and dishes?

A couple of asides about contemporary tasting menus. First, "tasting menu" can mean so many different things, from a series of courses improvised by the chef, to a "common denominator" selection of the most popular or least challenging courses on the menu. In some cases, a tasting menu is less expensive than the carte; so it's hard to generalize about them.

Secondly, how refreshing it is to see the range of main ingredients and cooking techniques deployed by Escoffier. One of the tedious aspects of tasting menus, in modern New York at least, can be the presentation of a series of predictable pan-cooked proteins, distinguished only by attempts at novel garnishing. But I am repeating myself from elsewhere, so that will do.

[Jonathan Day]

how refreshing it is to see the range of main ingredients and cooking techniques deployed by Escoffier.  One of the tedious aspects of tasting menus, in modern New York at least, can be the presentation of a series of predictable pan-cooked proteins, distinguished only by attempts at novel garnishing.

Wilfrid, I agree (though I don't recognise many of the specific preparations in the second Escoffier menu): somehow these dishes sound both simple (after all, according to Elizabeth David one of E's maxims was "faites simple" -- roughly "keep it simple") and interesting.

And yet here is Adam Gopnik, seeking to capture the essence of Escoffier’s ideas about cuisine:

It was cooking that rested, above all, on the idea of the master sauce: A lump of protein was cooked in a pan, and what was left behind in the pan was ‘deglazed’ with wine or stock, ornamented with butter or cream, and then poured back over the lump of protein … the great hoteliers of Europe, particularly César Ritz, sealed in place the master sauce approach that remains the unchallenged basis of haute cuisine.

(from Paris to the Moon)

Has some of the complex simplicity (or simple complexity) of Escoffier's cooking has been lost in translation?

[ballast_regime]

i'd be really interested to see how many egulleteers, on average, would prefer longer, multi-course meals, rather than a simple string of dishes. certainly every person has enjoyed long-ass tasting menus; they're fun, and are appropriate on particular occasions. i'm also interested to see how many courses is too much, at what point do most egulleteers experience "palate fatigue" (as some have called it) or that indescribable haziness where, after so long, dishes begin to all look and taste alike. what's more, if egulleteers could have their way--if they could mandate what, and how, they ate--how many courses would be ideal? between 3 and 5, for myself, at least at lunch (i don't eat very much).

let the diminishing returns come rolling in!

iml

ballast/regime

[Stone]

At risk of having this improperly veer off topic -- I've never been a fan of tasting menus. Like tapas, I find that I'm served only enough of each dish to get a taste, but never enough to truly enjoy it.

[Jonathan Day]

i'm also interested to see how many courses is too much, at what point do most egulleteers experience "palate fatigue" (as some have called it) or that indescribable haziness where, after so long, dishes begin to all look and taste alike.

Ian, this is very close to the question which I hoped we might discuss in the thread. What "architectures" of tasting menu work well? Which don't?

Here are a couple of personal views, mostly on what doesn't work.

• As I mentioned earlier, too many salty tastes, too early on, tend to interfere with enjoyment later in a meal.
  Soup is good to start with, but too much of it early in a meal becomes heavy, especially if the soup is hot. In serving multi-course menus at home, I love to start with a small (espresso-sized) cup of a cold soup, or occasionally two or three cups with soups of contrasting colours e.g. carrot and watercress.
  On the other hand I have never become tired of truffles in multiple courses of a meal, as long as they are sensitively prepared. Terres de Truffes, in Nice, incorporates truffles in every course, including dessert.
  The pace matters. Some years ago, at a restaurant in Boston (I do not recall the name), we had a multi-course tasting menu. The restaurant was full, the kitchen was overwhelmed, and the gaps between courses grew and grew. After four hours, we left with several courses yet to come. On the other hand, an overly fast pace is also problematic.
  I find it annoying when the same technique is used again and again in every course of a tasting menu. Last summer at Lou Cigalon in Valbonne (1 Michelin star), there were "foams" in each of something like seven courses, from amuse-gueules to desserts.
  

For those who enjoy tasting menus: what elements distinguish the good ones from the bad ones? What makes a tasting menu tip into the "indescribable haziness" that Ian mentions?

[Wilfrid]

Something to which I've alluded several times; sameness of texture in several dishes puts me off. In upscale New York restaurants, the tendency is toward soft and melting. A piece of foie gras, followed by some slow-poached fish, followed by a filet of meat, with smooth sauces and foams and purees as garnishes - I end up wanting to bite something.

Similarity in saucing is another downfall. Food writers caution against this, but good restaurants still commit the fault. A series of rich red wine/demi glace reductions is about the worst in this category. Personally, I don't like more than one sauce the same color either. I have had more than one green sauce in menus at Union Pacific and Blue Hill. In fact, I sometimes feel that one green sauce is too many.

As for the order of dishes, I've tried Susur Lee's notion of working from heaviest to lightest in his eponymous Toronto restaurant, and this reassured me that the traditional direction, light to heavy, is best. And to the extent possible, the selection of dishes should mesh with an intelligent progression in the wines sampled. Of course, there are going to be exceptions, like a sweet wine with a foie gras appetizer, but champagne to white wine to red wine makes sense to me. A tasting menu I ate at March in 2001, with wine pairing, had me jumping from white wine to sherry to sake, and it all got a little confusing.