Flavoring your ice creams: Extract or infusion?

[paulraphael]

On 1/23/2023 at 2:16 PM, sverreef said:

 

Is this still your preferred amounts of herbs and infusion times? I'm specifically looking to try thyme and basil with the ChefSteps Creme Fraiche recipe, since thyme and basil is supposed to work well with cloudberries.

 

I'm a bit surprised that you recommend infusion for sorrel though. I thought juicing or something like this was the only way to capture the bright and vibrant flavours of fresh sorrel leaves:

 

Or is it a different sorrel?

Same Sorrel. She's doing something really clever by taking advantage of the Paco Jet. By grinding up the herbs after they're frozen solid, she's not allowing the enzymes to go to work and brown leaves (and wreck the flavors). The enzymes are inactive at those low temperatures. It's a similar idea to what Dave Arnold does with his nitro muddling technique for cocktails. 

 

My approach to herbs in ice cream is always changing. I'm a little surprised by how adamant my earlier posts are in this thread; some of these herb flavors—especially mint—are the most challenging to get right in my experience. Mint is just so incredibly delicate. Lauren Eldridge's approach should work with mint, but only with a Paco Jet or equivalent. 

 

Next week I'm actually visiting a consulting client on-site to help him work out a process for fresh mint flavor. He's opening a liquid nitrogen ice cream shop, so we're hoping to work out a process that takes advantage of the LN2. Probably will share some elements of the Dave Arnold and Lauren Eldridge methods. 

[sverreef]

Thanks for sharing your insight, @paulraphael. Sorrel has always been a favourite of mine, but I've never actually tasted it as a prepared element in a dish, just as a snack in the wild, as a garnish or as an element in a salad, so I'm really excited to try it in an ice cream this spring.

 

Hopefully, the creami is powerful enough to make a smooth texture using the Eldridge method. If not, could melting, straining and refreezing after the initial frozen processing be a viable option?

 

Thyme will be my next project, and your guidelines will be of great help. Do you recommend using sous vide to keep the temperature constant during infusion?

 

But first I have to make a double batch of the Creme Fraiche and elderflower ice cream I've been raving about in the Ninja Creami topic for a family dinner on Saturday. Reading this topic, I realize that I've used the wrong terminology though. The flavouring agent I have used is definitely an elderflower/water infusion, not an elderflower extract... 

[paulraphael]

15 hours ago, sverreef said:

Hopefully, the creami is powerful enough to make a smooth texture using the Eldridge method. If not, could melting, straining and refreezing after the initial frozen processing be a viable option?

I haven't been following the creami thread, is there concern that it doesn't grind as fine as a Paco?

 

15 hours ago, sverreef said:

Thyme will be my next project, and your guidelines will be of great help. Do you recommend using sous vide to keep the temperature constant during infusion?

Maybe. I haven't experimented enough yet. Thyme is a burly herb compared with things like mint and basil; I've found that it infuses nicely on the stove when you cook ice cream the old fashioned way. My curiosity with sous vide is about 1) is there an ideal extraction temperature to get the best flavors, and is it close enough to the ideal cooking temperatures for dairy proteins? and 2) can you capture more vibrant flavors by infusing in a sealed bag?

 

The sealed bag aspect is often the most interesting. You can retain so many delicate aromas when you use sv for things like seafood and vegetable stocks. But sometimes you can get more than you bargain for (garlic!)

 

As far as temperatures, I've been reading all the food science papers I can find, and there's very little guidance on temperature vs. flavor for herbs. You could fill a library with papers on this topic regarding teas and coffees. One of these summers I'll have to do a whole lot of tedious experiments.

15 hours ago, sverreef said:

 

But first I have to make a double batch of the Creme Fraiche and elderflower ice cream I've been raving about in the Ninja Creami topic for a family dinner on Saturday. Reading this topic, I realize that I've used the wrong terminology though. The flavouring agent I have used is definitely an elderflower/water infusion, not an elderflower extract... 

Please post your results!

[blue_dolphin]

16 hours ago, sverreef said:

Hopefully, the creami is powerful enough to make a smooth texture using the Eldridge method. If not, could melting, straining and refreezing after the initial frozen processing be a viable option?

 

I tend to think the Creami would do a good job with a soft herb like sorrel.   In the video, I think she said something about processing it with the Paco more than once so that might be a possibility with the Creami with the caveat that each cycle is going to warm the stuff up.  With the Creami, you might get a very thin layer on the bottom or occasionally on the sides that escaped the blades.  I had microplaned lemon zest in a mix.  It was detectable only in that bottom layer.  Using a silicone spatula to scrape the bottom and sides prior to a re-spin will take care of that.  I'm sure your idea to thaw , strain and refreeze would work, too. 

 

I'm going to make some lemon verbena sherbet and plan to strain it before freezing but might make a small portion with some leaves, just to see what happens. 

[sverreef]

1 hour ago, paulraphael said:

Please post your results!

 

https://forums.egullet.org/topic/163060-pacojet-competitor-the-ninja-creami/?do=findComment&comment=2373949

 

1 hour ago, paulraphael said:

I haven't been following the creami thread, is there concern that it doesn't grind as fine as a Paco?

 

I have no idea, sice Ninja doesn't seem to have published specs on the Creami's rpms. Judging by visual comparisons I've seen, the Creami is probably slower though, but in most cases, that can be fixed by a respin or two.

[sverreef]

On 1/25/2023 at 4:41 PM, paulraphael said:

Please post your results!

 

 

Last week's batch of elderflower ice cream. Flavour was fantastic once again, but texture was slightly icy even after two spins in the Creami. I think I might have fucked up the locust bean gum hydration in this batch, because the milk/creme fraiche fat separated in the Creami beaker. Or maybe that was a result of the warm milk curdling when I added the elderflower infusion (I picked one with added lemon from the freezer by mistake). The mix was perfectly smooth after the blending step however...

[paulraphael]

39 minutes ago, sverreef said:

 

 

Last week's batch of elderflower ice cream. Flavour was fantastic once again, but texture was slightly icy even after two spins in the Creami. I think I might have fucked up the locust bean gum hydration in this batch, because the milk/creme fraiche fat separated in the Creami beaker. Or maybe that was a result of the warm milk curdling when I added the elderflower infusion (I picked one with added lemon from the freezer by mistake). The mix was perfectly smooth after the blending step however...

Sounds like an emulsifier problem more than a stabilizer problem. Still kind of surprising it would separate in the freezer. Did you cook all the ingredients when hydrating the LBG?

[sverreef]

LBG is a new ingredient in my repertoire, so I can't say for sure what happened. It's most likely a result of insufficient temperature for hydration though.

 

I was uncertain about adding LBG and the other dry ingredients during the blending stage the first time I used the CS creme fraiche recipe, especially since I have opted not to boil the elderflower infusion together with the whole milk. Therefore, I added the dry ingredients to the milk to make sure the LBG was hydrated >90 degrees Celsius in my second batch (spruce tips flavour) as a comparison test. With little or no noticable difference, I went back to the more convenient way of adding the dry ingredients during blending.

 

Now, I have a new batch in the freezer, testing the alternative method of hydrating the LBG. This time it's flavoured with thyme. Milk, water and glucose infused by 8 grams of thyme for 10 minutes at 85-75 Celsius. After straining out the thyme, sugar, salt and LBG was added before bringing the mixture to 92 degrees Celsius. It tasted very promising before freezing, so I can hardly wait to test it together with a cloudberry coulis/sauce tomorrow 

[paulraphael]

If you get your LBG from TIC gums or Modernist Pantry (I believe it's the same product) it can be hydrated at a 75°C. I like to use this stuff for the flexibility it offers. 

 

Let us know how the thyme flavor is. 

[sverreef]

The thyme ice cream surpassed my wildest expectations. Great on its own, but paired with the cloudberry/rieslaner fluid gel I made, it was absolutely sublime!

 

 

The alternative LBG hydration method fixed the texture issue of my last batch as well.

 

Now I need to find a way to consistently replicate the thyme flavour. Maybe the Isi gourmet whip can be used to make a thyme syrup with more consistent and controllable infusion parameters? I think I have an unused rapid infusion set in a storage box somewhere in the basement...

 

With a few tweaks (incorporating a Panna Cotta element), I think this is probably our new Christmas Eve dessert 😃

[paulraphael]

I checked my notes from ages ago and saw this method for thyme ice cream (~5g thyme / L ice cream):

1. Add thyme to milk; heat to 180°F/82°C
2. Take off heat and cover; hold 30 mins; strain
3. Whisk in dry ingredients and yolks; cook
4. Etc.

I also worked some lemon zest into the sugar, which complemented the flavor

 

The thyme flavor from this simple method was fantastic. 

If I do it again, I'll experiment with infusing the thyme into the fully-made mix in a sous-vide bag while cooking. It will be a longer time but a lower peak temperature. I'm hoping this works out; if not, I'll go back to infusing on the stovetop as a separate step.

 

Thyme is relatively easy because it's so robust and stands up to heat and long cooking. This all gets more challenging with leafier herbs.

 

 

[sverreef]

I've eaten a bit too much ice cream lately, but I'll make a few extra thyme batches so I can compare the effect of different amounts of thyme and infusion times.

 

I used 8 grams for 10 minutes in a 565.5 gram recipe by the way.

 

Your infusion recipe scales to 2.83 grams of thyme with the Chefsteps recipe I've been using, so that should establish a useful baseline for dialing in the thyme flavour.

 

Do you have any recommendations regarding other good flavour pairings with thyme ice cream by the way? My stock of frozen cloudberries is too precious to use for this type of trial and error 😋

[paulraphael]

1 hour ago, sverreef said:

Do you have any recommendations regarding other good flavour pairings with thyme ice cream by the way? My stock of frozen cloudberries is too precious to use for this type of trial and error 😋

Strawberries, raspberries, pears, dates, figs, honey (ones with sharper, herbaceous flavors maybe), blood orange. Maybe goat cheese.

Edited February 7, 2023 by paulraphael (log)

[sverreef]

On 2/7/2023 at 1:53 AM, paulraphael said:

Strawberries

 

Made a new thyme infused batch for Mother's Day, which was celebrated today here in Norway.

 

This time, I tried to infused 5.7 grams of thyme (1% of total weight) for 15 minutes. Flavour was good, but not as bright, vibrant and distinct as the previous batch of 8 grams for 10 minutes.

 

Next time I'll try sous vide vacuum infusion.

 

We had a horrible strawberry harvest last year, so this small package of green/blushing berries picked in September/October was the only strawberries I had left in the freezer:

 

 

In hindsight, I should probably have just sliced them and used them as a garnish, but I decided to make a fluid gel similar to the cloudberry fluid gel I made last week. Flavour wasn't bad, but the colour could definitely have been more appealing... 😋

 

 

Flavour pairing was OK, but nothing like the magic which happened between thyme and cloudberries. Ripe berries would probably be an improvement in that regard. Also on the plate, under the white chocolate, is a roasted pumpkin seed paste/praline. Originally intended to compliment the strawberries, but at least in my opinion, it worked quite well with the thyme ice cream too.

[paulraphael]

Yeah, I find that strawberries get kind of sour and astringent, and with a bitter aftertaste if they aren't at least pretty good. We only have a good ones in NYC a few weeks out of the year most years, and you have to go to farmer's markets. Then I'm usually more inclined to just eat them than to make sauce or sorbet ...

 

Tell us more about cloudberries. I've never heard of those.

[sverreef]

They are my favorite produce/wild harvest, but unfortunately, I don't know how to describe the flavour.

 

There are a few posts about them in the foraging thread though:

 

https://forums.egullet.org/topic/38682-foraging-for-favorites/?do=findComment&comment=2358087

 

They are an acquired taste which is known to divide families, including my own, but since thyme ice cream is one of your favorite ice cream flavors, you're probably less likely to hate them than the vast majority of people... 😅

[Mars]

On 8/3/2022 at 8:06 AM, andrewk512 said:

Also having a lot of fun with this technique I discovered in the EMP cookbook too - infuse 3/4 of herbs into ice cream base, then blanch and shock and blend in 1/4 after. Nice green color with great herb flavor. This one is lemon verbena from my garden, but I have also done it with lemon basil and thai basil. I use 30g herbs for a 1 pint base

 

I've learnt a lot from your comments around here @andrewk512. With this herb-infusion method, are you cold-steeping in the base and if so, for approximately how long? I stumbled into a 24-hour steep in the milk before making the rest of the base for my favourite flavour I make (Jasmine Tea Gelato), but I don't know if it's a necessary duration haha

[Mars]

I hadn't seen this thread before already preparing a lemon thyme infusion this morning. I found this thread through DMing @sverreef a recipe earlier today and spotted it on their feed haha
 

On 2/7/2023 at 9:24 AM, paulraphael said:

If I do it again, I'll experiment with infusing the thyme into the fully-made mix in a sous-vide bag while cooking. It will be a longer time but a lower peak temperature. I'm hoping this works out; if not, I'll go back to infusing on the stovetop as a separate step.

 

I'm well used to your sous-vide method but if you were to infuse the leaves during the 77°C held temp like usual would that be too high? Also, you'd intend to strain out the leaves I suppose but from my experience I find the homogenised mix is difficult to parse through sieves. My only previous infusion batch - and the one I've made most - is a jasmine tea gelato (that I've mentioned in a reply to you before) which I cold-steep in milk for 12+ hours and usually 24 before straining the leaves and proceeding as normal. Dried tea are obviously more readily infusable than fresh herbs though so I'm thinking this lemon thyme batch in the fridge right now might not come out the way I intend. 

 

On 2/7/2023 at 9:24 AM, paulraphael said:

1. Add thyme to milk; heat to 180°F/82°C
2. Take off heat and cover; hold 30 mins; strain
3. Whisk in dry ingredients and yolks; cook
4. Etc.

Whilst I'm replying, would the 'cook' step here still entail the 45 minute hold for the proteins in the cream and stabilisers/emulsifiers to engage if you've taken the milk to 82°C already?

[andrewk512]

On 2/16/2023 at 5:05 PM, Mars said:

I've learnt a lot from your comments around here @andrewk512. With this herb-infusion method, are you cold-steeping in the base and if so, for approximately how long? I stumbled into a 24-hour steep in the milk before making the rest of the base for my favourite flavour I make (Jasmine Tea Gelato), but I don't know if it's a necessary duration haha

It was a hot steep, bring to near simmer and allow to sit off the heat (for maybe 30 minutes?) unfortunately I do not have the book at hand for a few days to check the exact time. I could see a jasmine cold infusion working well, but not sure how well a mint one would go (just translating my experiences with "water infusions"). You could probably just as well steep the jasmine in hot cream for 3-4 minutes. Would be interested in seeing your recipe for it (and the olive oil)

[Mars]

10 minutes ago, andrewk512 said:

It was a hot steep, bring to near simmer and allow to sit off the heat (for maybe 30 minutes?) unfortunately I do not have the book at hand for a few days to check the exact time. I could see a jasmine cold infusion working well, but not sure how well a mint one would go (just translating my experiences with "water infusions"). You could probably just as well steep the jasmine in hot cream for 3-4 minutes. Would be interested in seeing your recipe for it (and the olive oil)

I've currently got two batches of Lemon Thyme & Orange Blossom Honey in the fridge curing. One I blanched 1/4 in and cold-steeped the other 3/4 for 12 hours, the other I heated the milk with the lemon thyme in until it hit 82°C then took it off the heat for 30 minutes which is like what you've suggested here.

 

I'll compare the two by tomorrow! As for the recipes, they are my two best I would say. Sharing's caring:

 

[andrewk512]

2 minutes ago, Mars said:

I've currently got two batches of Lemon Thyme & Orange Blossom Honey in the fridge curing. One I blanched 1/4 in and cold-steeped the other 3/4 for 12 hours, the other I heated the milk with the lemon thyme in until it hit 82°C then took it off the heat for 30 minutes which is like what you've suggested here.

 

I'll compare the two by tomorrow! As for the recipes, they are my two best I would say. Sharing's caring:
 

 

 

Awesome, looking forward to trying, and to hear how the comparison works

 

This is reminding me, I was looking into beeswax ice cream recently. The Nordic food lab had a post about how they did a combo of both cold and hot infusion. Hot to extract most of the flavors and cold to get a bit of the more volatile components. I ended up doing mine fully hot extracted (mostly cause I was lazy)

[andrewk512]

Old thread but I am enjoying the new content.

 

I like to do a partial blend of blanched then shocked mint leaves primarily for the nice color it adds. This past summer I tested 3 mint sorbets with different mints from my garden, so it was not too standardized. But I did one full  heat infusion, one full cold blend, and one at 3/4 infusion 1/4 blend. I appreciated the mix one the best. I do feel like color is an important component of flavor even if the infusion has a better extraction of the typical mint flavor. I've done this technique with basil as well and really enjoyed it.

 

Has anyone used essential oils as flavoring? My main question is about the safety of essential oils that aren't the usual ones at the grocery store (orange, lemon etc.). While I'd like to use fresh ingredients, sometimes the essential oils open up the flavor palette to things that'd be more difficult to source (cedar, fir, bergamot). I have a douglas fir oil I'd consider using. I understand no one can really definitively comment on this, especially considering different manufacturers will produce it in different ways, and none are "food approved", but how do people feel about their usage? I first got this idea after seeing it done in The Fat Duck cookbook (although Heston I'm sure has access to far higher quality oils, or perhaps would make his own from a rotavap). There was a commercial food supplier here in Canada that was selling their own line of essential oils for about a year, which appeared to be thinly veiled as "ok for food use even though we won't say it", sadly I did not get to buy as many of these as I wanted before they discontinued the line, but this is where my douglas fir oil is from. I believe if you consume one of these oils and called poison control they would most likely just tell you to dilute with a ton of water and not worry too much (which is basically what you would do when adding a drop to a liter of ice cream), but I wonder about their long term safety

Edited February 18, 2023 by andrewk512 (log)

[Kerry Beal]

On 2/18/2023 at 11:46 AM, andrewk512 said:

Old thread but I am enjoying the new content.

 

I like to do a partial blend of blanched then shocked mint leaves primarily for the nice color it adds. This past summer I tested 3 mint sorbets with different mints from my garden, so it was not too standardized. But I did one full  heat infusion, one full cold blend, and one at 3/4 infusion 1/4 blend. I appreciated the mix one the best. I do feel like color is an important component of flavor even if the infusion has a better extraction of the typical mint flavor. I've done this technique with basil as well and really enjoyed it.

 

Has anyone used essential oils as flavoring? My main question is about the safety of essential oils that aren't the usual ones at the grocery store (orange, lemon etc.). While I'd like to use fresh ingredients, sometimes the essential oils open up the flavor palette to things that'd be more difficult to source (cedar, fir, bergamot). I have a douglas fir oil I'd consider using. I understand no one can really definitively comment on this, especially considering different manufacturers will produce it in different ways, and none are "food approved", but how do people feel about their usage? I first got this idea after seeing it done in The Fat Duck cookbook (although Heston I'm sure has access to far higher quality oils, or perhaps would make his own from a rotavap). There was a commercial food supplier here in Canada that was selling their own line of essential oils for about a year, which appeared to be thinly veiled as "ok for food use even though we won't say it", sadly I did not get to buy as many of these as I wanted before they discontinued the line, but this is where my douglas fir oil is from. I believe if you consume one of these oils and called poison control they would most likely just tell you to dilute with a ton of water and not worry too much (which is basically what you would do when adding a drop to a liter of ice cream), but I wonder about their long term safety

I bought a lot of oils from Xenex labs in BC - they were labelled as food or pharmacutical grade - then all of a sudden one year they weren't.  I'm comfortable using steam distilled essential oils - but not solvent extracted oils - although I'm sure if the solvent was ethyl alcohol then I would be fine with it. I've purchased rose otto and a huge number of other interesting essential oils from these guys in the past - they used to send little samples of oils along with every order which guaranteed them repeat business. 

[Mars]

On 2/18/2023 at 4:30 PM, Mars said:

I've currently got two batches of Lemon Thyme & Orange Blossom Honey in the fridge curing. One I blanched 1/4 in and cold-steeped the other 3/4 for 12 hours, the other I heated the milk with the lemon thyme in until it hit 82°C then took it off the heat for 30 minutes which is like what you've suggested here.

On 2/18/2023 at 4:35 PM, andrewk512 said:

Awesome, looking forward to trying, and to hear how the comparison works

 

Well, it looks like the heat infusion was both easier and yielded a better result. As for the 1/4 blend and cold-steep he recommended trialing with more leaves and roughly chopping them to ease infusion. If I had a larger lemon thyme plant than my tiny balcony guy I'd strip the leaves off the springs but for now they're too delicate to do so for the heat method I did just put in the whole sprigs. I took it a dinner with a chef I really respect and two others with Q-Grader qualifications, so people with exceptional palates and it was interesting that they didn't identify what it was off the bat but were able to justify their guesses when I explained the process. 'Coriander seed' has citrus and woody notes so he was tasting the thin stems that remained in the infusion, and another noted a 'citrus, peppercorn, something floral'. Oh, and he confirmed @paulraphael's comment on sugar assisting in infusion which I did do for the heat method, so that's a good tip. Anyway, really fun and informative night!

 

Oh, and I also quick pickled raspberries (little inspo from my recent ferment exploration and @sverreef's plating elements) which was an ~8hr brine of red wine vinegar, sugar, salt, pink peppercorn and a piece of cinnamon quill. Really happy with the results of both components individually and when paired.

[paulraphael]

On 2/18/2023 at 11:46 AM, andrewk512 said:

Old thread but I am enjoying the new content.

 

I like to do a partial blend of blanched then shocked mint leaves primarily for the nice color it adds. This past summer I tested 3 mint sorbets with different mints from my garden, so it was not too standardized. But I did one full  heat infusion, one full cold blend, and one at 3/4 infusion 1/4 blend. I appreciated the mix one the best. I do feel like color is an important component of flavor even if the infusion has a better extraction of the typical mint flavor. I've done this technique with basil as well and really enjoyed it.

 

Has anyone used essential oils as flavoring? My main question is about the safety of essential oils that aren't the usual ones at the grocery store (orange, lemon etc.). While I'd like to use fresh ingredients, sometimes the essential oils open up the flavor palette to things that'd be more difficult to source (cedar, fir, bergamot). I have a douglas fir oil I'd consider using. I understand no one can really definitively comment on this, especially considering different manufacturers will produce it in different ways, and none are "food approved", but how do people feel about their usage? I first got this idea after seeing it done in The Fat Duck cookbook (although Heston I'm sure has access to far higher quality oils, or perhaps would make his own from a rotavap). There was a commercial food supplier here in Canada that was selling their own line of essential oils for about a year, which appeared to be thinly veiled as "ok for food use even though we won't say it", sadly I did not get to buy as many of these as I wanted before they discontinued the line, but this is where my douglas fir oil is from. I believe if you consume one of these oils and called poison control they would most likely just tell you to dilute with a ton of water and not worry too much (which is basically what you would do when adding a drop to a liter of ice cream), but I wonder about their long term safety

I've used essential oils, especially mint. The flavor profile seems about the same as mint extract—super heavy on menthol. So you get mostly candy cane / mouthwash flavors. I've sometimes added just a touch to an ice cream base that has infused mint leaves, just to for some extra flavor.

 

Probably the hardest thing with the essential oils is measuring them. Unless you're doing commercial-size batches, it's hard not to overdo it. A drop can be too much.