Thick Cut Pork Chops - Sous Vide

[Tatoosh]

I am planning on doing cured-brined, smoked, and seared pork chops, in that order.  I will do a short 2 day brine using Prague Powder #1, salt, and sugar.  The chops will be injected with brine as well as the surface jaccarded.  After brining, they will be dried off, coated with rub and cold smoked for 7 to 8 hours.  Once the cold smoke is finished I will vacuum pack and sous vide.  

 

That is where I am having a problem deciding time.  And feeling a bit dense.  Looking at Douglas Baldwin's figures for a 2 inch piece of pork, I'm seeing 2 1/4 hours at 68.2C.  That will pasteurize it, but is that enough?  Given I just did brisket for 36 hours at the same temp, 2 1/4 hours seems like it barely has time to get warm.  

I have friends asking for the chops, finished and frozen, to be reheated later.  I want to be sure I provide a moist, tender, and flavorful chop that is safe.  Emphasis on the safe aspect.  I expect to chill the chops quickly as they come out of the water bath and then move promptly into the freezer.

So, for the sous vide time ... I guess I will go 5 hours, since over cooking should not be a factor with sous vide.  Unless the bone in chop - normally 1.5 inches to 2 inches thick, demands a longer time?      

[FauxPas]

I am really a novice at sous vide cooking, but it helps me to try talking through some of these things. Someone much more knowledgeable than me will come along and give you some better guidance, but here are my thoughts. I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong. (I won't comment on the brining or smoking.)

 

A brisket is a very different cut than a chop. The brisket is a tough cut that requires longer cooking. A chop is more like a steak, it can easily be overcooked. 

 

68.2 C seems quite high to cook at chop. That puts it up at the well-done end of the spectrum, unless that is what you want. 

 

I've looked at some of Baldwin's figures, but I feel pretty comfortable using ChefSteps simpler guides to time and temp. They advise 1 to 2.5 hr water bath time for chops, depending on desired doneness. 

 

If you look at the sous vide cooking thread, there is some discussion of cooking pork chops. 

 

Also, how will your friends be reheating the chops? That will be significant. 

[btbyrd]

+1 for everything FauxPas said.

 

68.2C is too high unless you're looking for a medium-well chop. 62C is medium rare, and is my preferred temp for pork chops. Doug Baldwin suggests going slightly lower (61C). And the Polyscience app lists 60C as its recommended temp for pork chops. Your preference may vary, but 68.2 is likely way too high.

 

A 2 inch thick chop (51mm) will be pasteurized after 2.25 hours at 62C. You really don't need to pasteurize the product unless you want to. A cooked, chilled chop will last for a week in the fridge without pasteurization. If you're going to cook, chill, and then freeze immediately you don't need to pasteurize. There's no need to cook tender cuts for any longer than it takes for their core temperature to reach your desired doneness (unless you want to pasteurize). They don't have any tough connective tissue that needs to break down. Longer cook times won't "overcook" a steak or chop, but it can negatively impact the texture and make it mushy. 

[paulraphael]

Life is a lot easier with steaks and chops if you aim for about 1-1/2" thickness. This is thick enough that's it's easy to sear without overcooking, and still easy to present in a lot of attractive ways. And cooking times stay reasonable—a little over half the time of 2" chops.

 

What cut are you using? For sous-vide I've used chops from the rib or loin, which don't need any additional tenderization time. If you're doing shoulder chops or sirloin, that's a different story; there's I'd go for a few degrees higher temperature and many hours of tenderizing. 

 

For the tender cuts, I set the circulator to 59°C, aiming for an interior temperature of 58°C. This takes 2 hours for a 1.5" cut; 3 hours 20 minutes for a 2" cut. I'd dispense with the brining, but it won't hurt anything

 

[edited to add: these cooking times include pasteurization to core. Checked with SVDash App]

Edited July 12, 2015 by paulraphael (log)

[Tatoosh]

EDIT:  i originally said my temperature was 68.2 - I WAS WRONG!  It is 62.8C - 145F.  As I mention below - I was pretty tired when I posted this and reversed a couple numbers.  Normally I will catch that if I reread my post a couple of times. Obviously, I did not reread it quite enough! 

 

Thanks for the comments, everyone!  I can dial it back some.  But I am in the Philippines where food safety and food handling are a whole different ball game over here.  Plus some of my friends (including myself) are in the "at risk" group due to medical or age factors.  So I err on the side of safety a bunch.  

The brine includes Prague Powder #1 so these turn into a sort of bone-in "ham chop".  I have done them without the sous vide, rather hot smoking them, including a final sear.  But lately they have been not quite as moist.  I think this is primarily due to variations in hot smoking and who is doing it on any given evening.  To correct the problem I am revising my brine and controlling the cook temperature more exactly by shifting to cold smoking and a sous vide finish.  Since these are not being served right away, but stored for later use, the sous vide vacuum packing also solves my packaging requirement.  

The thickness is usually 1.5 inches, but it can run up to 2 inches and as thin as 1 inch.  I get the chops in one piece, frozen, and have them cut on the saw.  But there is always some variation depending on how experienced the meat cutter is that trip.  So I want to use times that will cover the variations in thickness that occur.  PaulRaphael, these are bone-in rib chops.  

But your near universal response in terms of temperature definitely has me reconsidering the target. I will dial back to 60C and see how that goes.  With the shorter cook times, I can do a single test chop and check the result.  I posted this question after looking at the threads in sous vide section, but I was pretty tired and my noggin was filled with wool.  Refreshed and awake, I'll pour a hot cup of mountain grown Filipino coffee and revisit that section along with the Chef Steps link.  Thanks again!           

Edited July 13, 2015 by Tatoosh (log)

[Tatoosh]

PaulRafael and FauxPas - mea culpa - as you see in my revised post above - my target temp has been 145F or 62.8C and not quite so far from your recommendations.  Even ChefSteps shows 144F as Medium Rare.  So my 145F target temp looks pretty reasonable.  I will check thickness when I vacuum pack and adjust cooking times as necessary.  I originally posted in my response ab out going to 60C and i will try a single chop at that and see how it turns out compared to a 62.8.  

[haresfur]

I am planning on doing cured-brined, smoked, and seared pork chops, in that order.  I will do a short 2 day brine using Prague Powder #1, salt, and sugar.  The chops will be injected with brine as well as the surface jaccarded.  After brining, they will be dried off, coated with rub and cold smoked for 7 to 8 hours.  Once the cold smoke is finished I will vacuum pack and sous vide.  

 

That is where I am having a problem deciding time.  And feeling a bit dense.  Looking at Douglas Baldwin's figures for a 2 inch piece of pork, I'm seeing 2 1/4 hours at 68.2C.  That will pasteurize it, but is that enough?  Given I just did brisket for 36 hours at the same temp, 2 1/4 hours seems like it barely has time to get warm.  

I have friends asking for the chops, finished and frozen, to be reheated later.  I want to be sure I provide a moist, tender, and flavorful chop that is safe.  Emphasis on the safe aspect.  I expect to chill the chops quickly as they come out of the water bath and then move promptly into the freezer.

So, for the sous vide time ... I guess I will go 5 hours, since over cooking should not be a factor with sous vide.  Unless the bone in chop - normally 1.5 inches to 2 inches thick, demands a longer time?      

 

Sounds reasonable once you correct the temperature. I don't think the pork chops will turn to mush in 5 hours and that gives you a wide margin of safety for the pasteurization. If you are worried, you can test one, taking it out at 2 1/2 hours and measuring the interior temperature. Maybe even cut a taste then rebag and cook for the rest of the time to see if the texture is still to your liking.

 

ETA: Speaking a bit out of ignorance I would worry more about the cold smoke after jaccarding in terms of growing stuff, although the later pasteurization should make it safe.

Edited July 13, 2015 by haresfur (log)

[Tatoosh]

Thanks haresfur!  Since the meat will be cured, I don't worry too much about the jaccard.  But I do a warm vinegar wash on the outside prior to the actual jaccard which knocks down the surface bacteria substantially.   A quick rinse with very clean water and then the jaccard and two day cure/brine bath.  My brine is fairly light in terms of salt since I'm trying to increase moisture and introduce the cure, but not make it overly salty.

I've used cold smoking on bacon and pastrami now and it works very well.  But I only use it on cured meats.  Oh, I'll do it for cheese or something that is very temperature sensitive, but I never cold smoke uncured meats.   

[daveb]

Prague powder = pink salt?  That's the common term for curing salt in the states. Assuming proper ratio's the chops should be quite safe after brining  .  (Note: I'm a simple amateur in this regard - No Phd on the wall - I  do not sell cured product, but I eat more than a little bit of it.)   When I add pink salt to a dry rub or brine to a product destined for SV, it's more for the slight addition of color to the product than because of bacteria concerns..

 

For individual chops I do an hour in the bath @140F (60C)  Loins approx 3 hours.  Pork likes 140F.   I've done chops for 2+ hours and found the texture begins to noticeably degrade after 3 hours. 

 

Smoked chops sound very good btw.

[jayt90]

Perhaps you should factor in the amount cooking and juice run off in the 7 - 8 hour cold smoking. What internal temperature is reached?

If there is partial cooking of protein, collagen and fat from, say, 110 F smoke, then the sous vide can use less time, and minimal temperature.

I'm also curious about the minimal salt level in the brine cure. Offhand I can't think of of any cold smoke recipes that go easy on the salt, although I'm not too familiar with the concept.

Maybe you are entering an unknown or unproven area.

[Tatoosh]

daveb - yes, Prague Powder #1 aka Instacure #1, Pink Salt #1 (not the Himalayan stuff) is what I am talking about.  I did 145F (62.8C) since that gives a slightly more cooked result, something that reassures the end consumers - who live where food safety is oft forgotten. Just this week there were at least 3 publicized cases on the news of food poisonings as well as a local one in a school cafeteria that sent twenty or so elementary-age tykes to the hospital. (I'm in the Philippines)

jayt90 - cold smoking does not involve heat, so no weight loss due to heat.  Traditionally cold smoking is under 100F and mine is pretty much ambient temperature - maybe a temperature kick of 10 degrees max.  I'm smoking in the evening when temps are near 65F or so.  Yes, even in the tropics you can find such cool places (temperature wise) though they are rare.

However, I've done two test runs now and the cold smoke/sous vide combo isn't quite cutting it in the flavor area.  It is working great for moistness.  I've ditched the cold smoking and returned to a hot smoke using charcoal with a charcoal sear to finish.  I still go to sous vide for the finishing since it does provide a very moist chop.  

My salt problem seems well resolved.  It is a weak, well, very weak brine.  Since many brines are meant for soaking for a matter of hours, while mine is a matter of days, I need to adjust that.  It is a bit similar to EQ curing - where the salt amount is figured exactly based on the weight of the meat, so it is impossible to over-brine or over cure.  My longer, lighter brine is not as exact as EQ curing but tends in that direction.  

I usually vac pack and freeze my chops.  Somehow that "fixes" my saltiness issue.  I don't know the food science to explain it, but a chop that is too salty when removed from the sous vide finish is just fine after I freeze it and then rewarm it.  I appreciate all the input here folks.     

 

[KennethT]

Tatoosh, have you tried curing then SV then chill and air dry in the refrigerator to get the surface tacky, then hot smoke to temp?  I know it's a lot of steps, but I think it would yield a much "smokier" product.  I find that smoke flavor post SV tends to be muted, and there winds up with a strong smoke smell in the water bath.

[paulraphael]

I picked up a pretty nice 1.5" thick heritage breed loin chop yesterday, and SV'd 2 hours at 59°C, then seared on a hot pan. It was very good, but next time I'm going to drop to 58.5°C.

 

Good pork loin meat seems dry and overdone to me when it loses all its pink. 

[Tatoosh]

KennethT - I have not tried reversing the procedure.  I hear you about losing some of the smokiness even though the chops are vacuum packed in 3.5 mil plastic.  These are fairly labor intensive, but that is not a major problem.  I may give that a try on a couple to see how it goes.  

paulraphael - Sounds very tasty indeed.  Sadly, not much choice in terms of pork varieties here in the Philippines.  And the 62.8 on the cured chop gives a pretty good result for me.   

[EnriqueB]

(...) A cooked, chilled chop will last for a week in the fridge without pasteurization (...) 

 

That breaks the sous-vide safety rules I know. Could you please explain the reasoning?

[Tatoosh]

EnriqueB,  tell me a bit more about this "no storing SV cooked food for a week in the fridge" rule, please.  Is this primarily aimed at SV cooked food that remains in its vacuum packaging?  Is the temperature for refrigerators insufficient for safe storage?  Which bacteria is the primary concern? Botulism?  

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I think the key phrase is "without pasteurization".  I keep pasteurized sous vide meats in the refrigerator for weeks or months.  If you have gone to the trouble to bag and cook sous vide food for later use there is no excuse not to pasteurize it.  Unless, perhaps, you freeze it, which I choose not to do.

[Tatoosh]

Okay, that makes sense.  I do freeze food but I always shoot for a pasteurized product unless I'm simply rewarming a previously cooked product.  My chops get frozen for longer storage.  I wouldn't worry about throwing them back in a SV bath set to my "serving" temperature.  But I'd never knowingly "cook" them for less than the pasteurization time. 

Which is a very good point. I need to go look at the Chef Steps guide to SV times and Baldwin's guide to pasteurization.  It seems to me that Chef Steps times were definitely shorter and they do not discuss thickness of the item being cooked at all.  Hmmm! 

[EnriqueB]

EnriqueB,  tell me a bit more about this "no storing SV cooked food for a week in the fridge" rule, please.  Is this primarily aimed at SV cooked food that remains in its vacuum packaging?  Is the temperature for refrigerators insufficient for safe storage?  Which bacteria is the primary concern? Botulism?  

 

The generally accepted rules for sous-vide cook-chill safety are:

1. Food must be pasteurized to core for vegetative forms of pathogenic bacteria. Pasteurizing implies cooking the core to a temperature higher than 54,4ºC (the believed temperature at which the highest temperature-resistant pathogen C. Perfringens starts to die) for long enough time (enough that the slowest-to-die pathogen Listeria Monocytogenes dies). Pasteurization in this case would be heat process equivalent to 70ºC/2 min, which would reduce Listeria by a factor of 6 log units ("6D"). You have tables to compute these theoretical times depending on temperature, type of food, food shape, and food width, in Douglas Baldwin online guide and can also use the excellent ipad app SousVideDash
2. Food must be chilled immediately after cooking and as fast as possible (to <5ºC in less than 1,5 hours) using an ice-water bath with at least 50% ice or similar, then immediatly refrigerated
3. Conservation days under refrigeration must be limited depending on the fridge temperature. If <3ºC can be absolutely ensured, a long period of about 21 days can be used, but this is not usually feasible in home fridges. At 5ºC safe storage time is 10 days, at 10ºC it is 5 days. Requirements 2 and 3 are due to the fact that with pasteurization for vegetative forms of bacteria we are not killing the sporulated form of bacteria. Of special concern are those that are anaerobic or facultative, as we are creating a reduced-oxygen environment with the vacuum bag and the spores can start germinating as soon as we enter the danger zone while chilling. The limit times are due to psychrothrophic C. botulinum type E, but C. perfringens and B. cereus spores are also of concern.

 

Given that the door of home fridges is opening often, their temperatures tend to be high, it is a good idea to keep the cooked pouches in the coldest part of the fridge, reduce conservation times to 5-7 days at home, and always keep a digital fridge thermometer close to it. Otherwise, freeze and conserve for several months without problems. Freezing many sous-vide cooked foods almost does not affect quality.

 

For some foods the sous-vide cooking profile may imply pasteurization for spores too. This may happen with tough meats cooked to >75ºC for long periods, or with vegetables or grains usually cooked to >80ºC. In those cases cooking to an equivalent heat treatment of 90ºC/10 min would reduce C. botulinum spores by 6D and the conservation times can be much longer.

 

Also, for inmuno-competent people, a milder form of pasteurization can be used with a reduced conservation time. Baldwin proposes a 3D core reduction in Salmonella, fast chilling, refrigerating to <5ºC and consuming in less than 5 days.

 

For more details, I suggest reading Douglas Baldwin's guide or his review paper. 

 

I should also say that long cooking times around the threshold value 54,4ºC are still of concern to some microbiologist, as that is an area for which most thermal treatments are extrapolations and we lack enough experimental data to fully support them. Detailed explanations can be found in this report: Safety of sous-vide foods: Feasibility of extending ComBase to describe the growth / survival / death response of bacterial foodborne pathogens between 40ºC and 60ºC.

 

(edited to modify some of the critical temps/times after consulting the sources)

Edited July 22, 2015 by EnriqueB (log)

[EnriqueB]

I think the key phrase is "without pasteurization".  I keep pasteurized sous vide meats in the refrigerator for weeks or months.  If you have gone to the trouble to bag and cook sous vide food for later use there is no excuse not to pasteurize it.  Unless, perhaps, you freeze it, which I choose not to do.

 

Pasteurized sous vide meats normally means "pasteurized for vegetative forms of pathogenic bacteria" only. Unless you have also pasteurized for sporulated forms (which implies much higher temps/times, I think 75ºC is the minimum temp I've seen for this) you should NOT keep the meats in a home refrigerator "for weeks or months". You are running a serious risk of spores germinating and producing toxins than may make you seriously sick (B. cereus or C. perfringens spores) or die (C. botulinum spores).

Edited July 22, 2015 by EnriqueB (log)

[Tatoosh]

Okay, thanks for the insight!  It comes at a very good time too.  I'm trying a new form of making bacon.  I am doing an EQ rub cure - dry cure but Equilibrium Cure (EQ) - salt and Instacure #1 is a percentage of the weight of item being cured.  One of the three test bacons is a Sweet & Peppery Bacon.  It finished 10 days of EQ dry curing in a refrigerator - but not the kitchen refrigerator - so not opened often.  

I removed the two pieces, rinsed them,  reapplied the spice mix (Honey Powder, sugar, some spices) and then coated with cracked pepper.  I had seen that a few days of vacuum packing really helped form a spice bark on my pastrami and am doing the same thing with black pepper for my pepper bacon.  I plan to leave the vacuum packed bacon in the refrigerator until Sunday - it is Wednesday here in the Philippines. I will then smoke it for 12 hours in Maple/Hickory/Cherry wood mix.  

Since the bacon has finsihed curing and has a salt and sodium nitrite barrier, I'm not worried about botulism, but I'm always open to comments and insight from others.  Do you see any problem with this?   Once it is finished, I usually don't vacuum pack it but do freeze it for storage. My regular bacon never lasts long enough for freezer life to be a concern.  

Edited July 22, 2015 by Tatoosh (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Pasteurized sous vide meats normally means "pasteurized for vegetative forms of pathogenic bacteria" only. Unless you have also pasteurized for sporulated forms (which implies much higher temps/times, I think 75ºC is the minimum temp I've seen for this) you should NOT keep the meats in a home refrigerator "for weeks or months". You are running a serious risk of spores germinating and producing toxins than may make you seriously sick (B. cereus or C. perfringens spores) or die (C. botulinum spores).

 

I cook the previously pasteurized meat prior to eating it.  The heat resistant toxin of B. cereus does not seem to be a huge concern with meat*.  Though I no longer store cooked rice.

 

 

*Edit:  after reading up a bit, cereulide toxin is not produced under anaerobic conditions (such as sous vide) or below 10 deg C.

Edited July 23, 2015 by JoNorvelleWalker (log)

[EnriqueB]

I cook the previously pasteurized meat prior to eating it.  The heat resistant toxin of B. cereus does not seem to be a huge concern with meat*.  Though I no longer store cooked rice.

 

 

*Edit:  after reading up a bit, cereulide toxin is not produced under anaerobic conditions (such as sous vide) or below 10 deg C.

 

"Cook" normally means "reaching a given temperature at core", which, for the usual sous-vide temperatures, adds no safety. I guess you are also searing, which no doubt should kill many pathogens if present on the surface. But that is not a guarantee of safety.

[EnriqueB]

Since the bacon has finsihed curing and has a salt and sodium nitrite barrier, I'm not worried about botulism, but I'm always open to comments and insight from others.  Do you see any problem with this?   Once it is finished, I usually don't vacuum pack it but do freeze it for storage. My regular bacon never lasts long enough for freezer life to be a concern.  

 

Yes, nitrites should remove the botulism risk.

[EnriqueB]

I cook the previously pasteurized meat prior to eating it.  The heat resistant toxin of B. cereus does not seem to be a huge concern with meat*.  Though I no longer store cooked rice.

 

 

*Edit:  after reading up a bit, cereulide toxin is not produced under anaerobic conditions (such as sous vide) or below 10 deg C.

 

"Not a huge concern". True, not the highest concern, but there are several reported cases of intoxications from contaminated meats. And meat are sometimes spiced and spices are mucho more susceptible. And some strains of B. cereus have shown to be able to produce enterotoxins under anaerobic conditions. For a source for both issues see Andersson A. et al "What problems does the food industry have with the spore-forming pathogens Bacillus cereus and Clostridium perfringens?" International Journal of Food Microbiology 28 (1995) 145-155.