Baking Bread in a Bread Machine

[BarneyDorfman]

On Wednesday, May 11, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Deryn said:

I really don't want to be harsh, Barney, but your dependency on electricity and a mechanical machine while spouting stuff about prepping and Bedouins is what is 'confusing' (to try to put it politely). Frankly, it is verging on the nonsensical.

 

(etc....)

 

So .. as I said before .. 'let's begin at the very beginning'. Not in the middle. Not at the end. Let's go back to the basics. Learn to make simple breads by hand. Then you can up your game and 'experiment' with a better basic understanding of theory. We'd like to help but right now you are pretty much out in the weeds, my friend. If all you really want to do is keep making this particular bread, this particular way, for your wife, that is fine too but it doesn't fit with the rest of what you keep talking about - and you should realize that.

 

Yeah I keep hearing that a lot, and the most diplomatic response I have is that some people have reading comprehension issues, but they don't let that stop them from pontificating long in off-topic areas that have nothing to do with the topic of the thread, which is learning to apply the notion of "starter yeast" to the recipe that I've been developing for several weeks, and using in my bread machine.  That's the topic of this thread.  People that have the desire to help are welcome to do so.  I thank those that have contributed thus far.  AFAIC, "John Galt" is the guy back there that, once he understood what the thread was all about, he went immediately from "what's this?" to "I'm going to start experimenting immediately".  THAT is the kind of person I hold in highest regard.  An ounce of action is worth a pound of theory.

 

And, as an update, I extended my bloom time to overnight, decreased the yeast to 1 t. and increased the flour to two T., it's in the bread machine right now.  The last loaf had a bloom time of 2 hours with 2 t. yeast, 2T. flour and the flavor increase was significant, however the loaf "poofed" inside the machine to the point that it stuck to the lid and blocked the steam vent holes, so I decreased the amount of yeast while increasing the bloom time.  I'll report results, maybe later this evening.

[BarneyDorfman]

Some pics.  #1 is my Chef Paul Prudhomme 2.5 lb. breadmaker, #2 are my current weights of ingredients in black magic marker on the side of the stainless steel of the bread maker (26.05 grams flour, 11.70 grams warm water, 1.85 grams sugar, and #3 is a picture of today's loaf, in the middle of the 2nd of three "Rise" periods.)

 

 

[rotuts]

I also make Machine bread

 

yours now looks OK

 

I cut this bread  side-to-side as two slices fit better in the Toaster Oven

 

for me its the CSB

[BarneyDorfman]

My wife likes crust, so she always gets the 1st piece, and I always get the 2nd.  She wouldn't let me take a picture of hers.  Said it was "weird" to have strangers looking at her food.  This piece is mine.  Note the heavy layer of butter.  I hope that's okay.  I'm certain that neither preppers nor beduins are allowed to have that much butter on their bread, and I'm certain my butter-slathering technique is probably all wrong.  Perhaps someone could post a copy of a book that will instruct me on the right way to put butter on my bread?

 

In seriousness, this loaf is the one that has only 1 t. of yeast, with a bloom time of overnight.  The bread is less "poofy" than the last loaf, and has less flavor too, so when comparing the last two loaves:

 

1st loaf:

2 t. yeast, 2 T. flour, 1 1/2 c. warm water, bloom time 2 hours

 

Result: much better texture, too much "poof", stuck to lid of machine, much better flavor

 

2nd loaf:

 

1 t. yeast, 3 T. flour, 1 1/2 c. warm water, bloom time overnight (@ 10 hours)

 

Result: "grainier" texture, size/height was correct, less flavor than last loaf.

Edited May 14, 2016 by BarneyDorfman (log)

[Deryn]

That bread looks great, Barney. Thanks for the pictures. I am sincerely glad you have it all figured out now.

 

I do have to say though that you were not as clear about stating your problem as you think you were at first, sir. You were a brand new poster and I don't even see a 'Hello, Glad to be here' post or introduction from you yet people jumped in to try to help you anyway. A number of us have found a lot of that very frustrating - and this is a very bright, friendly and experienced crowd. Apparently you thought that only ONE person who started to do an experiment FOR you was really worthy of listening to.  The rest of us have felt (or at least I did and I know I am not alone) that we might be banging our heads against a brick wall. And you did talk about prepping and Bedouins - and not wanting to use anything but commercial yeast, and definitely not wanting to go the 'sourdough' route.

 

Anyway, you might want to cut us a little slack, as we did with you. Welcome to the forum. Let's start again.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Deryn (log)

[Lisa Shock]

On 5/11/2016 at 11:19 PM, keychris said:

 

I think perhaps you're misunderstanding what the purpose of that process is. It's not to get the yeast into a state of multiplication, it's simply to rehydrate them and wake them up from dormancy.

Agreed

 

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -Inigo Montoya

 

Blooming =/= Proving

Edited May 14, 2016 by Lisa Shock
clarification (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I don't think this thread is going anywhere.  @BarneyDorfman there is no shame in using a bread machine.  Many of us use bread machines, either for mixing or for baking.  Follow the manufacturer's directions.  And/or just use good instant yeast, such as Fleishmann's or SAF.

 

Or for sourdough there is a substantial thread here on eGullet.  But sourdough may not be exactly what you are looking for.

 

 

 

[pbear]

Alas, my experiment was not successful.  Seemed to be going well for three generations, then activity fell off noticeably with each subsequent division till now I have what I call a hospice starter, alive but just barely.  Don't know what went wrong, but don't think it was competing flora, as the starter neither smells nor tastes sour.  Rather, I think I wasn't getting doubling of the yeast, perhaps because of insufficient incubation and/or fermentable starch (temp was okay for sure).  Anyhoo, I no longer try to revive hospice starters, instead pitching and starting over.  Except I was only doing the experiment out of curiosity - don't have any trouble making bread the regular way - so I'm gonna let this go.

 

Good luck, Barney, in your endeavors.

[Lisa Shock]

44 minutes ago, pbear said:

Alas, my experiment was not successful.  Seemed to be going well for three generations, then activity fell off noticeably with each subsequent division till now I have what I call a hospice starter, alive but just barely.  Don't know what went wrong, but don't think it was competing flora, as the starter neither smells nor tastes sour.  Rather, I think I wasn't getting doubling of the yeast, perhaps because of insufficient incubation and/or fermentable starch (temp was okay for sure).  Anyhoo, I no longer try to revive hospice starters, instead pitching and starting over.  Except I was only doing the experiment out of curiosity - don't have any trouble making bread the regular way - so I'm gonna let this go.

 

Good luck, Barney, in your endeavors.

 

Yeah, culturing yeast isn't easy, especially if you don't have access to a sterile room and sterile equipment. When I made it, I had access to a lab, lab equipment and an autoclave. Even so, there are many hidden variables and I admit that I got very lucky in having a good outcome. Modern dry yeasts (instant and active dry) are really a lot more reliable, consistent, and keep longer than fresh commercial cakes of yeast. Bakeries used to have all sorts of issues with culturing fresh cake yeast, which was the only type available for over a century. (before that, we just had sours and their vagaries) It would lose potency, get infected with spoilage bacteria and mold, take on unwanted yeast strains, and generally be unreliable. It was more reliable than sours, so people kept using it, but, it had issues. Then the dry yeasts were developed, and solved all of those issues and had the added bonus of taking up much less space than fresh. It could also be stored for years instead of days. This is one modern type of processed food that is really good at what it does, and vastly superior to commercial yeast of the past. And, it makes exactly the same types of loaves as cake yeast. (-If modern commercial style bread is what you are looking to make. Once again, traditional soured breads have more bioavailable nutrients even when made from the exact same flours as a yeast-raised bread.) Today, if a bakery is the sort to use yeast, generally instant is preferred.

[BarneyDorfman]

On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 0:29 AM, pbear said:

Alas, my experiment was not successful.  Seemed to be going well for three generations, then activity fell off noticeably with each subsequent division till now I have what I call a hospice starter, alive but just barely.  Don't know what went wrong, but don't think it was competing flora, as the starter neither smells nor tastes sour.  Rather, I think I wasn't getting doubling of the yeast, perhaps because of insufficient incubation and/or fermentable starch (temp was okay for sure).  Anyhoo, I no longer try to revive hospice starters, instead pitching and starting over.  Except I was only doing the experiment out of curiosity - don't have any trouble making bread the regular way - so I'm gonna let this go.

 

Good luck, Barney, in your endeavors.

I threw some flour, yeast and water into a tupperware container and let it rot on the countertop for 4 days.  It smells like alcohol now.  I threw half of it into the batch of bread I made this morning and I'm wondering what's going to happen.  An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.  I think the "purpose" of putting yeast into water and flour is to maximize whatever effect yeast has to increase flavor.  Maybe some people that prepare food don't care much about flavor, as long as you weigh your ingredients and the end product is 100% consistent, then the purpose of food preparation has been fulfilled.  pbear I appreciate your time, expertise and effort.  I might report here if something interesting happens.

[liuzhou]

21 minutes ago, BarneyDorfman said:

Maybe some people that prepare food don't care much about flavor, as long as you weigh your ingredients and the end product is 100% consistent, then the purpose of food preparation has been fulfilled.

 

I carefully weigh my ingredients and look for consistency in all my cooking. That doesn't in any way detract from maximising flavour. In fact, I'd go for flavour first every time.

 

Bread making is never, ever 100% consistent.

Edited May 23, 2016 by liuzhou (log)

[keychris]

9 hours ago, BarneyDorfman said:

I threw half of it into the batch of bread I made this morning and I'm wondering what's going to happen

 

Did you have any additional yeast to the "starter yeast" in your dough?

[BarneyDorfman]

13 minutes ago, keychris said:

 

Did you have any additional yeast to the "starter yeast" in your dough?

 

No, and in fact I was just finishing the last bite of a piece just as I noticed the "new post" notification.

 

In rough figures, my recipe calls for about 12 oz. of water, and since I added a full cup of "starter" yeast, which was roughly half water and half flour, with a single t. of yeast (4 days ago), I decided that half my 1 c. of flour/water/yeast "starter" was water so I reduced my 12 oz. of water to 8 oz.  Also threw in 2 of the worst bananas I've ever had.

 

The bread is DELICIOUS.  Heavy, like banana bread, but still light enough to be thought of as white bread,  It has a light flavor of banana, but not so much that you think "desert" instead of "meal".  In fact I ate the bread with a hot bowl of very hearty pinto bean and baked ham soup (with onion and a dash of garlic).  Mention this in case anyone thinks that white bread with a couple bananas thrown in would be ruined as "main meal" bread.  I think it makes the ham & bean soup taste better.

 

As far as the starter yeast's performance, the 1 c. of "starter yeast" had enough active yeasties in there to make my bread raise to approximately the same height as usual.  It was about 1/2" lower than what I normally get, and for sense of scale, when I add 2 t. of active yeast (instead of 1 t.), the 2.5 load raises so high it sticks to the lid of the bread maker.  In short, in my recipe, 1 t. active yeast "good", and 2 t. active yeast "too much".  Using just the "starter yeast" caused the bread to rise a little low compared to the standard 1. t. active yeast option, but I can't say what the non-standard water measurement plus the moisture from the 1 c. of "starter yeast", plus the effect of the 2 horribly flavorless (but still not brown and over-ripe) bananas.

 

Lots of learning going on over here.  Like I say, an ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.

 

I added more flour and water to my dedicated rotten starter yeast tupperware container, but held back on the water to see what would happen if I kept the "starter yeast" more like "dough" and less like goop.  I'll report results in a few days as I plan on making another loaf using the starter yeast alone and hopefully these remaining bananas will have found their way into the compost pile.

Edited May 23, 2016 by BarneyDorfman (log)

[Deryn]

3 hours ago, BarneyDorfman said:

 

Like I say, an ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.

 

 

And a picture is worth a thousand words. Let's see pictures of what you call your rotten 'starter yeast' concoction, please.

 

I guess you have achieved your objective already - proving one could save a few pennies on dry yeast. It is fantastic to learn that is indeed possible. All that stuff I read about it on the web was just theory I guess - but you proved it could be done! Bravo! And, it is great to learn that you have 'invented' sourdough! Congratulations.  

 

I still don't quite get why you insist on calling a 'yeast starter' ... 'starter yeast' - as though they were different somehow. If they are, why/how are they different?  I am still puzzled.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Deryn (log)

[BarneyDorfman]

2 minutes ago, Deryn said:

 

And a picture is worth a thousand words. Let's see pictures of what you call your rotten 'starter yeast' concoction, please.

 

I guess you have achieved your objective anyway already - proving one could save a few pennies on dry yeast. It is fantastic to learn that is indeed possible. All that stuff I read about it on the web was just theory I guess - but you proved it could be done! Bravo! And, it is great to learn that you have 'invented' sourdough! Congratulations.  

 

I still don't quite get why you insist on calling a 'yeast starter' ... 'starter yeast' - as though they were different somehow. If they are, why/how are they different?  I am still puzzled.

 

Right, well a re-read of the thread will show that what I'm doing has nothing to do with sourdough.  My starter yeast/yeast starter/bowl of stinky brown goop is Fleischman's (commercial) yeast.  Bread tastes great!  (Not like that nasty sourdough stuff, yuck!)  Back there a ways, someone said that giving the yeast more time to do whatever it does to the flour increases flavor.  Being the eagle-eyed goal achiever that I am, I immediately noticed it and commemorated my awareness in the next post.  Another Member here also noticed it and announced he was going to being experimentation immediately, which he did.  Then reported back that the yeasties die off for some reason, and no report of any of the doomsayer's grim predictions of hoards of illegal "wild" yeasties invading my starter yeast in clear violation of immigration laws.  But I stand at the ready, just in case.  Can't really help with the reading comprehension issues, nor can I address specific questions that aren't being asked, mostly what I perceive are generalized complaints about a lack of clarity.  Usually, when I have a question, I put some effort into understanding the thread, and then put some effort into asking a direct question, but that's usually because I have an interest in the topic of the thread and am interested in either learning something.  I could be wrong, but that seems to be a prerequisite for learning things in general.  You have to be interested enough in the subject to be willing to put some effort into it.

 

Anyways, the experimentations continue.  As mentioned previously, the "starter yeast/yeast starter/neverending gobstopper of yeast" is now more of a jello-like blob of dough than a bowl of oatmeal-like goop, and the primary reason for me doing this is because of that alcohol smell and someone previously said that the alcohol production of the yeast will kill those yeasties off, so maybe that's the reason for the "bowl 'o yeasties hospice care", IDK.  My thinking is that if the flour/water/yeast mixture is on the dryer side, that might slow-down the growth of those yeastie-bugs and limit the alcohol and limit the population die-off due to alcohol poisoning.

 

And I had the idea on the idea that "wild" yeast is going to sneak into my domestic yeast's country in the middle of the night when no one is looking and somehow "take over".  I mean, if the starter yeast goes sour, then that's what happens, right.  But I'm wondering why it is that a starter yeast that has a billion yeastie bugs in it, all multiplying like mad are suddenly going to get taken over by "wild" yeast.  Are wild yeast tougher than commercial yeasts?  I find it hard to believe that a couple of recently paroled illegal wild yeast immigrants are going to kill off billions of patriotic american commericial yeasties and take my starter yeast bowl over.  But, if that happens, I might report it here.  Maybe.

[Deryn]

Barney - Not much I can say to that theory of yours except a) you may want to be careful about using politics to describe anything here on this forum and b) did you know that foods that contain oils (particularly foods like cake or biscuit mixes for instance) can be rancid even if you cannot taste or smell rancidity when you eat them? That (b) may sound a bit odd to say when the topic is yeast - wild and commercial - but, my point is that just because you cannot see or (yet) taste them (wild yeasts), how can you be certain they are not there?

Edited May 24, 2016 by Deryn (log)

[blue_dolphin]

1 hour ago, BarneyDorfman said:

But I'm wondering why it is that a starter yeast that has a billion yeastie bugs in it, all multiplying like mad are suddenly going to get taken over by "wild" yeast.

I'm certainly not the first person in this thread to say this but It's almost impossible to keep yeast or any sort of culture at the stage of growth where they are "multiplying like mad,"  particularly in a home kitchen that lacks the sort of mixing apparatus to ensure uniformity throughout the container used to maintain it.  For this, you need  a means of continuous supply of nutrients and removal of metabolic products and without that, growth of the primary yeast will slow and that will allow either yeast variants that have developed in your culture, wild yeasts or bacteria to grow, any of which can overwhelm the original yeast and "take over."  Meticulous adherence to a specific feeding/splitting schedule is necessary to maintain a culture where the primary (in this case, commercial) yeast remains active and dominant.

 

1 hour ago, BarneyDorfman said:

Are wild yeast tougher than commercial yeasts?

Generally speaking, yes.  A wild yeast is likely to be at least somewhat adapted to the conditions of the place where it is growing while commercial yeasts are accustomed to a more controlled and ideal environment.  If you've managed to supply and, more importantly, maintain that ideal environment then the commercial yeast will remain dominant in your culture but any variation from the ideal is likely to favor development of wild or naturally occurring variants that may have different characteristics from the original commercial culture.

 

1 hour ago, BarneyDorfman said:

I find it hard to believe that a couple of recently paroled illegal wild yeast immigrants are going to kill off billions of patriotic american commericial yeasties and take my starter yeast bowl over.

There is no need for these rogue yeasts to kill off the original yeast.  Unless you have a very complex system to supply nutrients and remove waste, some percentage of your "patriotic american yeasties" will be giving up the ghost of their own accord and those dead cells will block their neighbor's access to nutrients and space to grow, creating areas where other organisms may flourish and take over.

 

1 hour ago, BarneyDorfman said:

But, if that happens, I might report it here.  Maybe.

I hope you will.  Sharing our experiences is the best part of eGullet!

 

Edited to add: You've already received generous input from some very knowledgable and experienced bakers here.  I am not an expert baker in any way but have answered the questions you posed above from a basic microbiology perspective.  

Edited May 24, 2016 by blue_dolphin
clarification (log)

[Deryn]

Just as an aside, I can almost guarantee that you, Barney, have far more wild yeasts in your kitchen than I do right now. I have no bananas or other fruit on my counter, and no potatoes hanging around either. I have not made bread two or more times a week for months as you have said you are doing. And, not only are there two people who spend time in your kitchen (presumably your wife visits there once in a while) while I am alone here, but, I expect you are a larger person than I am (in other words, you have more skin area which means you carry more wild yeasts on your person than I probably do). And while you are not using whole grain flours, there may be less but there is still some wild yeast presence in the flour itself. Where I am right now, I have only a small amount of flour and it is well wrapped and still sealed - and in fact, is nowhere near my kitchen. Were I to make bread following your exact methodology today, I am fairly certain I would have far fewer wild yeasts competing for dominance in my starter than you probably do. My wild yeasts though, however few there are, would most likely be also of very different strains than yours. If I were to use exactly the same recipe, ingredients, method, breadmaker, everything exactly as you do, my bread would taste (at least subtly) different than yours, even if I lived next door to you .. because of the wild yeasts.

 

At any rate, I think you might be amazed at how much 'wild yeast' there is all around you - and hence how much 'wild yeast' may have settled into your 4 day commercial yeast starter and begun to grow. I'd be very surprised if there were only a few errant wild yeast(ies) lurking in your vicinity ready to invade your experiment. Time and temperature are probably the only reasons your starter had not become very sourdough-y tasting - had you left it longer and continued to feed it and/or had you changed the temperature significantly during the fermentation period that most likely would have happened as the wild yeast strains gained strength.

 

In any event, you will always have some wild yeast in your breads - it just isn't dominant as quickly when you both use commercial yeast at first and then end the experiment early (and particularly if you use commercial yeast and a bread mixer which rapidly converts the bread mixture into a baked finished loaf). If you don't want a strong sourdough taste (and as I have said not all sourdoughs are even recognizable to the average palate as being sourdough even if they are) that is fine - but to deny that wild yeasts are there at all is not plausible (or smart if you want to 'understand' what is happening so you can replicate it reasonably consistently over time). It is all a delicate balance between the 'flavour' that wild yeasts can provide through their ability to 'sour' the dough a little or a lot, and the amount of leavening you want, the amount of yeast you use and the amount the atmosphere provides, along with time and temperature - just to mention a few variables.

 

Have you tested the pH of your starter? That might be one way to see what is happening over time vis a vis the wild yeast 'takeover' (or not). Sourdough pHs are generally much lower (aka more acidic) than those of commercial yeast preparations. You may want to read this article about the difference between wild and commercial yeasts. http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howdowildandcommercialyeas.html

 

But, speaking of 'fermentation' period, why did you decide to use the starter when it began to smell like alcohol? Starter goes through many phases (as it 'ferments', producing alcohol and CO2) - and will have different smells along the way - and many people might have waited till later in the process to use their starter (later than the alcoholic smell phase) ... so what made you decide that was the optimum time to make bread from it?

 

I have been making bread for many years, in many places, in many ways - but I am a mere amateur - and i am definitely not a 'scientist' but an 'intuitive' cook. I have made many mistakes - still do - and I learn from them (usually) and from the advice of others. I simply have an enquiring mind - as I am sure you do too or you would not be conducting this 'experiment'. As blue_dolphin pointed out - the best thing about eGullet is that we share our culinary experiences and experiments here - so rather than just get mad at people here who have asked questions or tried to share their personal experiences or insight or knowledge (or all three), and suggesting you may withhold your insights or results if we don't cooperate as you seem to want us to - why don't you just try to have a bit more of an open mind and heart. You may indeed discover some new thing that has eluded scientists and bakers for eons - we are open to that possibility and if it happens and you let us know, I am sure we will applaud your success. But, getting to that discovery may actually be made a bit quicker and/or easier by taking in/acknowledging there could be much value in the combined wisdom/knowledge/experiences some here have offered you and not discarding it out of hand.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Deryn (log)