Combination of smoking and sous vide

[Degas]

I've done a lot of online research but can't find any recipe that uses both smoking and sous vide. I've recently added a vertical box smoker to my arsenal and would love to incorporate it with my sous vide methods. In other words, meat in a smoker generally only takes on smoke for the first hour, so what would be the harm in smoking something like a tri tip for an hour, immediately vaccuum sealing it and placing it into a bath at 132 or so? It seems like an ideal way to get the best of both worlds. A good idea? Bad idea? Why aren't there more recipes using this combination? I'm aware of incorporating liquid smoke into pouches, but this seems like a pefect way to achieve both smoke and tenderness. Thoughts?

[Norm Matthews]

I don't know anything about sous vide but adding smoke isn't the only reason for smoking. You want a crust on it too and both smoke and crust takes more than an hour.  Two hours is the least amount of time things are usually smoked.  After that, I don't see any reason why you can'f finish it in the sous vide.  PS Tri tip is traditionally grilled rather than smoked, as in a Santa Maria tritip.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Norm Matthews (log)

[Dave W]

This works great and you might even be surprised at the "crust" that develops on a spare rib after being smoked for 2 hours and then sous vide for 10 at 63C.

Right now I've got a 48 hour brisket flat half cooked at 57C and I plan to rub and hot smoke to finish tomorrow. This is the first time I'll have smoked after. Will try to remember to report back.

In your OP you note that meat only takes on smoke for the first hour which is a common misconception. Smoke ring formation slows and stops as meat temperature approaches 140F. But smoke particles will adsorb to surface of meat so long as they are present in the cooking environment.

[gfweb]

I routinely cold smoke turkey breast and pork tenderloin and then cook sous vide.  Works very well. Tender, smokey, tasty.

[daveb]

http://forums.egullet.org/topic/150101-what-are-you-cooking-sous-vide-today/page-8

 

post 236

 

I've mixed the smoker and the SV a few times.  Usually par-smoke (is that a word?) a tough cut that will benefit from an overnight or longer bath.  Will sear somewhere in the process. 

[Tri2Cook]

I'm not sure if it falls into the same category being discussed here but I've been contemplating cold smoking beef to be ground for sous vide burgers. Cold smoke for a couple hours, chill, grind, patty, sous vide, sear. Seems like a ridiculous amount of work for a burger when I've never had issue with just grilling a burger but I'm curious about the sous vide burger thing so I figured I might as well go all-in when I try it.

[dcarch]

----------Cold smoke for a couple hours, chill, grind, patty, sous vide, sear. Seems like a ridiculous amount of work for a burger when I've never had issue with just grilling a burger but I'm curious about the sous vide burger thing so I figured I might as well go all-in when I try it.

 

A few drops of Liquid Smoke?  :-)

 

dcarch

[Barrytm]

Degas,  I do a three step for ribs and turkey breast, and am very pleased with the results.  For Ribs - usually I use St. Louis style cut,  I apply a rub and let rest according to the regular instructions for smoking.  Then set up my smoker and shoot for between 175 to 225 , and when it is at temp with smoke, I throw on the ribs.  I smoke for one hour, then vac seal, and cook for 2 days at 143,  then when they are done,  I throw most of the packs in an ice bath and freeze, the one that is going to be eaten then is put on the grill with a little sauce.  Comes out perfect.   Turkey breast is the same, though I usually smoke it only 45 minutes, and different sous vide cook times and temps -  then put in cast iron pan to sear.  It is a lot of work, so I try to do multiples when I do it, but the taste and texture is worth it.   I have read somewhere that the vast majority of the smoke flavor comes in the first hour- don't know if that is true, and have also read that you can have too much smoke on some foods, like turkey, and that fights with the taste, so the short smoking times work for me.  

 

I am actually going all the way outside the box tonight on sous vide -  I am trying chicken kiev - so the schedule is cut a slot in the breast for filing, brine, sous vide, then insert the filling, stitch close, bread, pan fry for a few seconds, and serve.   I am not thinking that it will be better in terms of taste, but I am planning to make this dish for about a dozen people next week, and am afraid if I do it the conventional way, many of the pieces will be over cooked. 

[paulraphael]

Nathan Myhrvold talks about this at length in the Modernist Cuisine series. There are some advantages to smoking pre- and post- S.V.  

 

I gather that his preferred method for barbeque is to sous-vide first (very long and low for traditional tough bbq cuts), then to  place in a low oven to dry out the surface to the right level of tackiness, and then to smoke. When the surface moisture content of meat is at the right level, it soaks up smoke very, very quickly. Which suggests that during traditional smoking, there's a fairly short window when most of the smoke molecules are actually getting absorbed by the meat. This is a variation on the progressive smoking method developed by German sausage makers.

 

There's also mention of smoking first, cooking sous-vide later. I can't remember the supposed advantages of this. The disadvantage is that the smoke flavor diminishes a bit during cooking.

[btbyrd]

I frequently combine smoking and SV. I was first turned onto the technique by ChefSteps' baby back rib recipe, which I've gotten very good results from.

 

 

One of my ribs:

 

 

The things I SV/smoke regularly tend to be ribs (beef and pork) and pork belly. I haven't tried sausages yet, but I plan to. I've done pork shoulder a few times but have found that the texture ends up being much too mushy compared to what you get by smoking conventionally at 225F (and cooking until the core gets up over 200F). The SV version will pull nicely and it'll taste great, but I like a range of textures in my pulled pork -- crunchy edges, somewhat stringy extremities, and juicy soft bits from the middle. Here's some SV pulled pork:

 

 

The pre/post SV smoke debate depends on the flavor profile that you're going for. If you smoke beforehand, the intensity of the smoke will diminish in the bath, but the flavors themselves will continue to develop and you'll get a significant color change. Smoke particles are smaller than the pores in SV bags, so the water in your bath will end up taking on a smoke smell (and probably turn brown) if you cook for a long time. But the smoke flavor that you end up with will be more complex and subtle than if you just smoked after the SV step. This photo shows the color difference between smoked and unsmoked pork belly cooked SV for 48 hours. The smoked version was cold smoked at 35F for four hours. Prior to going in the bag, there was a subtle color difference between the two versions, but after cooking the difference was much more apparent:

 

 

Since I am a lover of smoke, my favorite order of operations is "cold smoke -> SV -> chill -> reheat on smoker". This gives you the depth of flavor that comes from the pre-SV smoke step but also freshens up the smoke notes at the end so it has more of that "fresh campfire" aroma/flavor to it.

 

As others have mentioned, Modernist Cuisine has a nice discussion of smoking and sous vide. ChefSteps also has a number of recipes that combine these techniques, as well as a dedicated barbecue class that might be worth your time. Check out this page for their overview of combining smoke and SV.

[Degas]

Thanks for all the replies. Intuition told me that smoking combined with sous vide should produce excellent results, the real question being to pre or post smoke. I guess I'll have to experiment to find out which I prefer.

 

I purchased a tri tip (for the first time) and now have the dilemma of leaving the fat cap on or not. Conventional smoking calls to leave it on, while sous vide only recommends taking it off. If I do a combination, I'm assuming that I'll be taking it off since it won't have enough time or heat to melt during a quicker, colder smoke. I plan on smoking it around midnight tonight, then placing it in a bath until noon tomorrow upon which time it will finish on a hot grill. I'll check back with results.

[Dave W]

Results in 48 hour/57c brisket flat, cooled to room temperature followed by Rufus Teague rub and 3 hours in a mini WSM at 225F over lump charcoal plus oak wood smoke: smoke flavor, smoke ring and crust are delicious and as desired. Brisket texture was slightly off the mark, I think it was a little undercooked.

[nickrey]

Check out this post which compared smoke first sous vide later with the opposite order.

[ChrisTaylor]

I've had mixed results following the "smoke > sous vide" method. The post Nick linked to advocated "sous vide > smoke." I'd had the most success with that method. Though it (probably) defeats the point of precise temperature-controlled cooking, I've been known to come home from work and park sous vide beef ribs in my hot smoker--reheating and smoking at the same time.

[dcarch]

I am happy with my way of smoke "sous vide".

 

Basically, my smoker is a PID temperature controlled circulating hot air (sous vide by moving hot air instead of hot water) cooker with an external smoke generator. After smoke/cooked, the meat spends a few minutes on a hot charcoal grill to get a crust.

 

dcarch

[hxtasy]

I've had mixed results following the "smoke > sous vide" method. The post Nick linked to advocated "sous vide > smoke." I'd had the most success with that method. Though it (probably) defeats the point of precise temperature-controlled cooking, I've been known to come home from work and park sous vide beef ribs in my hot smoker--reheating and smoking at the same time.

what if you did a cold smoker, like how they smoke cheeses in a fridge?

[hxtasy]

I am happy with my way of smoke "sous vide".

 

Basically, my smoker is a PID temperature controlled circulating hot air (sous vide by moving hot air instead of hot water) cooker with an external smoke generator. After smoke/cooked, the meat spends a few minutes on a hot charcoal grill to get a crust.

 

dcarch

in this method i take it you do not bag the meat?

[radtek]

That's just convection not under vacuum.