Iron Chef America (Part 2)

[Bux]

Yes, Campbell's dishes looked more creative and I too would have expected him to win those points, but that Mario worked his creativity within a tighter framework and in my opinion within a framework that made creativity that much more difficult to do successfully may well have earned him extra credit. Let me explain my view by taking a dish that has three ingredients, or three flavors that don't quite work successfully together. Would a solution that added one additional ingredient that totally resolved the dish be more or less creative than another solution that improved the dish by adding six more ingredients, but didn't quite achieve the same harmony as the dish with four ingredients? The nine ingredient dish may well appear more creative at first sight, but not at first bite. The proof of the creativity must be in the taste, or the most complex dish will win on points. I realize taste is a separate category, but it must subltly come into play in all categories. As Doc says, "Anyone can throw together disparate ingredients, but if they don't work, how original or creative is that?" I too admire risk, but I think the reward for risk is that when it works it earns extra points. There are different kinds of risks as well. One can risk tossing a number of ingredients together on a hunch and seeing if they work, or one can risk working in a very tight framework where any creativity may be seen as tampering with a classic. I think I can defend the nature of Mario's risk here.

[purplewiz]

I do understand where you're coming from, and agree that complexity is not equal to creativity. And in order to win, you must not only take risks, but succeed with them.

I've thought more about Mario's dishes, and while I do see the risk in "tampering" with a favorite, there are still two issues that stick in my mind. First was that I viewed the buffalo wing and the meatball sandwich/sausage and peppers as very similar - upscale renditions of homestyle fare. I'm sure they were both excellent, but to me, it looked like a bit of repetition. I know others may see it differently, and I'm sure the judges did.

The other is a very subjective judgement call: I had a pretty good idea of what each of Mario's dishes would taste like. What differentiates Iron Chef from just another timed cooking contest for me is the "whoa" factor in the results, the "I never would of thought of that", the "now where did THAT idea come from", the "I have no idea what that would be like but I'll bet it would be different". And it really surprised me that from the descriptions and the pictures was how well I was able to form a mental picture of the taste profile of the results.

I freely admit that profile might be dead wrong, but the fact that I was able to form it was a novel experience.

This is why I was surprised with the scoring results. I had expected that Campbell would win the creative use score, they'd be about tied on plating, and Mario would take the taste points hands down, and the battle. I hope this explains a little more how my own reasoning went - I think we're all in agreement on the battle, just discussing the finer details :-).

Marcia.

[Osnav]

I do understand where you're coming from, and agree that complexity is not equal to creativity. And in order to win, you must not only take risks, but succeed with them.

I've thought more about Mario's dishes, and while I do see the risk in "tampering" with a favorite, there are still two issues that stick in my mind. First was that I viewed the buffalo wing and the meatball sandwich/sausage and peppers as very similar - upscale renditions of homestyle fare. I'm sure they were both excellent, but to me, it looked like a bit of repetition. I know others may see it differently, and I'm sure the judges did.

The other is a very subjective judgement call: I had a pretty good idea of what each of Mario's dishes would taste like. What differentiates Iron Chef from just another timed cooking contest for me is the "whoa" factor in the results, the "I never would of thought of that", the "now where did THAT idea come from", the "I have no idea what that would be like but I'll bet it would be different". And it really surprised me that from the descriptions and the pictures was how well I was able to form a mental picture of the taste profile of the results.

I freely admit that profile might be dead wrong, but the fact that I was able to form it was a novel experience.

This is why I was surprised with the scoring results. I had expected that Campbell would win the creative use score, they'd be about tied on plating, and Mario would take the taste points hands down, and the battle. I hope this explains a little more how my own reasoning went - I think we're all in agreement on the battle, just discussing the finer details :-).

Marcia.

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Looks like we we've arrived at 7 blind men describing the elephant here. So let this blind man jump in with his two cents:

I thought the scoring was about right.

Plating: I thought Campbell seemed really heavy handed in his presentations. Large smears of this and that, some untidiness in some presentations, and overall it was just not visually appealing to me.

Creativity: Most of what Campbell did was certainly more "experimental" than Mario; but it didn't work for me. I agree with what one of the judges said to Campbell about one of his dishes: "What has the cheese (the featured ingredient) got to do with this dish?" Campbell admitted that the cheese was more of an accent than a central ingredient (my paraphrasing). I thought this lost him any chance he had.

As someone else mentioned earlier in the discussion, I thought it was apparent that Mario was going to win, and win big, early on in the broadcast.

ri

[NulloModo]

I just watched this one last night.

I really wanted to like Campbell's dishes, and they did look pretty cool, but in the end I think I might have been tempted to go for Mario's fare as well. I do think Campbell was much more creative, as Mario pretty much just stuck with established Italian recipes or variations on them, nothing that totally broke the mold. I like Campbell's plating, I've never eaten anywhere that smeared random stripes of sauces all over the place and used gold foil though, so, maybe I'm just not burnt out on it like some of you.

As for interest dropping off: They need more live ingredients. One of the best parts of ICJ was watching the chefs have to kill live eels or octopi or some big fish. I'd love to see a battle based on something that will put up a fight as the chefs try to kill it before cooking it.

[jayt90]

The show is more interesting when the competition is close, as in Feenie vs Morimoto. It was downright dull when a chef is outclassed or unable to complete dishes in an hour.

The recent show started with a bias: All Italian cheeses, tossed right in Batali's lap! Perhaps they could have thrown in a WASPy cheddar or stilton for Chef Campbell.

[Bux]

The two posts that distinguished between "experimental" and "complexity" on the one hand and real creativity on the other, made a real point about accomplishment. If a dish was wildly inventive and looked great on the plate, but none of the judges would take a second bite, would it get any points in any category. Should it?

[Phatlouie07]

when's the lee vs. cat cora episode??

[ken T]

April 3rd.

[NancyH]

We just enjoyed a fabulous dinner at Lola in Cleveland last night. As you all may know from another thread, Lola will be closing at the end of April and re-opening later this year in downtown Cleveland; the current Lola space will become Lolita and feature Greek/Italian influences.

Cleveland Food & Wine Forum member Joel arranged for Michael Symon to prepare a special "going away party" for us, and about 38 people feasted on Smoked Sturgeon over Sweet Beef cheeks, Pickled Yellowtail, Lobster Pierogi, Rabbit Strudel, Micheal's famous Mac & Cheese, Veal Sweetbreads, Duck Confit Stroganoff, and a fabulous chocolate-caramel "pretzel" to finish us all off!

So, Michael mentioned that he is scheduled to be a challenger on Iron Chef America. His show tapes the first week in May; he did not know yet who he will be battling. If the dinner I had last night is any indicator, it should be one heck of a battle!

[edsel]

...

So, Michael mentioned that he is scheduled to be a challenger on Iron Chef America.  His show tapes the first week in May; he did not know yet who he will be battling.  If the dinner I had last night is any indicator, it should be one heck of a battle!

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I'm amazed that Symon is taking time to film ICA in May, considering that the Lola -> Lolita transformation is supposed to be done by June and the new downtown Lola will be in process as well. Busy guy!

[Bux]

In about five minutes my son-in-law will be on Iron Chef America backing up Alex Lee. This is the one-two team that worked together at Daniel for years. Alex was often in charge of the Daniel kitchen and Daniel Boulud was quoted as saying that he felt comfortable leaving the restaurant in Cyrille's hands when he and Alex took off for Lyon as reported in Leslie Brenner's The Fourth Star: Dispatches from Inside Daniel. You may dismiss my comments as less than disinterested, Cyrille is my son-in-law, and Alex is a friend, so I'll just say that there are probably two of the more talented chefs cooking NY. I will also say that I haven't seen anyone on the show so far, Iron Chefs included, who I'd rather have feed me than either of these two guys.

[docsconz]

There is no way that Alex Lee lost to Cat Cora. This convinces me that the results are predetermined. They couldn't have Cora "lose" on her first gig as an Iron Chef.

I know Steingarten, but where do they get these judges?

[banquo]

I was very impressed with Anita Lo tonight. I haven't tried Anissa yet, but it's high on the list now that I've seen her in action. That show made me like ICA for the first time. It didn't last long, since the subsequent Alex Lee v. Cat Cora battle made me angry all over again. I'm no consequentialist, but there's something wrong with a game which allows such outrageous and entirely incredible outcomes. I think they should change the scoring system so that instead of tallying up numbers, the winner is determined by whoever wins over 2 of the 3 judges. That way any judge who scores one of the competitors very low (or very high) won't unduly influence the outcome.

[chefzadi]

Thanks for the results John. The episode hasn't aired on the West Coast yet. It will in an hour.

I've pretty much been out of the loop for the whole series. They air after my bedtime. Last night I caught the rerun of Flay vs Bayless. I thought the results spoke to the credibility of the judges, excluding Steingarten. I also got the impression that it was the anchorwoman who swung the tally in favor of Flay. She seemed to be infatuated with fruit and spicy flavors.

Bayless presented himself extremely well. Quite the gentle person. After watching this episode, I don't think I can stomach another one with such a blasphemous ending. I know it's only a TV show. Of course I'm not part of the target audience.

[Phatlouie07]

There is no way that Alex Lee lost to Cat Cora. This convinces me that the results are predetermined. They couldn't have Cora "lose" on her first gig as an Iron Chef.

I know Steingarten, but where do they get these judges?

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who were the judges besides steingarten?? hmph, i think cat cora shud've lost even if it was her first gig as an iron chef.

[NulloModo]

I didn't realize there were two on last night, so I missed the Cora battle, but I did see the Battalli vs. Lo. This is the only one whose outcome I have been totally dead-set against so far, and the first time I have really seriously believed that perhaps the judging system could be flawed. Just looking at each set of dishes, Battali's looked so much more flavorful, colorful, and well, appealing. I'm not generally a skeptic, but I have to wonder in this case if it was PC concerns that lead to the first all-female team taking the W.

[docsconz]

The Lo victory over Batalli was debatable with I believe Lo's reslience overcoming Mario's overconfidence. Her dishes did feature mushrooms more prominently even if they might not overall have been better dishes. I was surprised at the margin of victory though.

I still can't believeCora beat Lee though, especially after the judges' comments. Maybe that is why we no longer see Steingarten as a judge?

[ken T]

Someone needs to call the police...Alex Lee was robbed. There have been several "battles" during the season that I felt could have gone either way but the final scoring didn't make me react as I did last night...I am with those who say the outcome of the CORA v LEE competition was predetermined. Absolutely ridiculous!

[chefzadi]

I actually watched both.

I get the impression that the Iron Chefs are more about more is more, add some more, than a lot more to it, whereas the challgengers are minimalists by comparison.

I couldn't predict the Lo and Batali turnout. I was thinking Batali might win. But Lo's dishes did feature the main ingredient prominently and the other components of her dishes were strong supporting elements. Whereas Batali's dishes seemed to be overall stronger, they did not feature mushrooms much at all. Mushrooms seemed to just another ingredient in some of presentations. For me it was interesting that he made a Fidwah, which is a dish from Moorish spain. Of course we have a version in Algeria. I too was surprised by the margin of victory. On the other hand Lo's resilience, professionalism, understanding of ingredients and eloquence made me a fan.

As for the Lee and Cora battle. First off I want to say that Cora does have her style and technique down. Her dishes however did not sing to me. Lee's dishes on the other hand, like Lo, showcased the primary ingredient exceptionally well. He understood that the most tasty potato preparations are the most common and he elevated them supremely to the FDR level. Wow! Cyrille (Bux's son in law) is quite the sous chef to work with in the kitchen. It was evident to me that Cora and Lee had French training from the way they moved and used their knives (except the cleaver , although I do like them myself).

As a side note, I'm a little baffled at the use of equiptment by the Iron chefs. Why is Batali hacking mushrooms on the edge of his cutting board with a tiny knife? And his whisking with a tiny whisk. And then Flay when he was against Bayless, uses an industrial immersion blender for a relatively tiny pot and amount of sauce. Do they not understand scale?

[Dryden]

The Lo-Batali battle looked to be pretty much a tossup. Of course, Dana Cowin was on the panel, and it was her magazine that named Anita one of the best new chefs a few years back... and one of Lo's sous chefs had a bright pink "F&W" hat on...

But the Cora-Lee thing was just a joke. There is no way on earth she "won". Interesting that she only won by a point, against a chef with a more secure job (and less of a reputation to protect) than most others.

Robert, I'd be very interested to know what your son-in-law thinks of the whole thing.

Edited April 4, 2005 by Dryden (log)

[chefzadi]

I want to add that the excessive female chef hype illustrates how backwards the show can be.

Eugenie Brazier had 6 stars decades before Ducasse did.

[FaustianBargain]

I want to add that the excessive female chef hype illustrates how backwards the show can be.

Eugenie Brazier had 6 stars decades before Ducasse did.

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In the 1920s even...Fernand Point bowed to Mere Brazier.

[Bux]

. . . .

John, I'd be very interested to know what your son-in-law thinks of the whole thing.

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I assume that was addressed to me. I have no idea of how far the nondisclosure agreement ranges, but I think it's safe to assume that you'll never know exactly what he thinks of the whole thing. He did not get to see the show last night and he asked about the judges' comments. Either he didn't get to see and hear either of the chef's presentations or he expected some severe editing. I gather at the time, Alex felt there was a discrepancy between the scores and the judges comments. I had to think hard to remember any negative comments, then I remembered that Jeffrey thought the tortilla was a bit dry and not holding together. I thought the latter was interesting as the egg is the glue in the matrix and the woman next to him said she couldn't taste the potatoes for all the egg. For me one of the most telling comments made, and I think it applies to the entire series so far, was when Brown (at the left) said the first course was "wonderfully mild." That's not the kind of food that comes across on television. That same judge went on to say "knockout" and "unbelievably good" about other courses. He also recognized the first course as a wonderful way to start a meal. I thought they were wonderful comments from a self professed "hash browns kind of guy." Then again I love hash browns. Jeffrey's comment about the tortilla being dry was followed by something to the effect that he could eat the whole tortilla. The contrast with his comment about Cat's octopus being too chewy to eat was all too glaring. I don't think anyone ate much of the potato ice cream. I gather it tasted much like I thought it might, that is like ice cream mixed with mashed potatoes. The way the two chef's approached including potatoes in dessert said a lot to me about how well they understand food. I think Cyrille feels good about the calls and e-mails he got from the people whose opinion he respects. I don't know the other sous chef works with Alex at this current position, but I know Cyrille and Alex had a good time preparing for the show and for all the pressure, I sense it was a good adrenaline rush for both of them. To a great extent, they are both old school chef's chefs and not guys eager to be interviewed. I suppose it would be easy enough to put oneself in their shoes if you had strong feelings about the credibility of the outcome.

[Dryden]

Robert -

Sorry about that - brain lock. Your elaboration is much appreciated.

[carp]

I’m starting to feel very stupid watching ICA because at this point I have no reason to doubt that it’s fixed and yet I still watch it and pretend I don’t know who’s going to win.

I need to watch this with the mindset I had when I watched Hulk Hogan on WWF as a wee lad. If one guy had a nick name and the other guy didn’t, it wasn’t hard to see who would win. Of course, there were always the “upsets,” but the only kids who couldn’t see those coming went home on the short bus and no matter who won you always saw something cool that you couldn’t wait to try on your friends.

Cora had to win, so she did. That doesn’t mean she beat Alex Lee. It just means Alex Lee wasn’t the new Iron Chef, so it wasn’t his turn to win. The contest is so obviously fixed that I feel more and more stupid the longer I go on about how fixed it is…

It’s fixed.

Get over it… at least they still throw around thou$and$ of dollar$ in truffle$, hack up live fish, and regularly display moves that separate the real professional bad ass mother fuckers from the mere industry mortals (think Sherry Yard spinning sugar bare-handed vs whatever the hell Cat Cora thought she was doing in there).