Need a new sandwich bread

gfron1 · June 23, 2014

At my restaurant we make everything from scratch (even cheeses, cured meats, pickles...) except bread. Which is ironic since my start here on eG was primarily pastry and its still my passion. But I just haven't had the capacity to make bread for the restaurant until now.I bought a commercial convection, 2 tray full-sheet oven, and I think that will allow me the space to make enough to feed my customers.

The bread is for my lunches only not dinners. Lunches are basic café fare - soup, salad and sandwiches. So obviously we're looking at the sandwiches. The bread needs to cross the lines between roasted turkey to sloppy chicken molé.

I like my sandwich breads to be soft enough to easily bite and chew (sourdough is out).

I would like the bread to be versatile enough that I could add herbs or cheese to specialize for various sandwiches.

It needs to be sturdy but not so much bread in our carb conscious world.

I like focacias but they're a bit too rustic for my place

Previously I have used a bought ciabatta but they were too tough for many of my customers.

Currently I am using a bought brioche bun which is too bready and so I'm seeing a lot come back to the trash.

I've only used individual rolls/buns to this point but have considered sandwich bread, although that is a bit too rustic for us...but not if its good enough.

I think the ideal bread would be somewhat flat but a bit of sponge, have a little bite, but not too much chew (if that even makes sense). Any thoughts. Maybe there's a cool ethnic bread that I haven't considered, or you have a favorite that seems to fit the bill.

CatPoet · June 23, 2014

I could dig up the recipe for Hole cake ( Hålakaka), my grandmother's recipe and it is half rye and half wheat, soft bread that can be made into Örfilar ( A clip around the ear) which is a square soft bread and easy to make. Rye is such a popular thing even for those who want less carbs. In Sweden most breads are a mix of wheat and rye. It doesnt have the wow factor of ciabata but it taste great. I love with smoked turkey or goat cheese or pike spread... Oh I am now drooling.

Does it sound nice?

Or you could make tunnbröd, that has become popular and is called Nordic wrap, but you need to be two to make or you will work your self to death and the one my family makes is half barley half wheat.

Edited June 23, 2014 by CatPoet (log)

**Smithy** · June 23, 2014

One of my favorite upscale cafes uses flatbreads that they make on site. The bread is soft and pliable enough to serve as a wrap if one wishes, but it can also be cut with knife and fork as part of an open-face sandwich. Since it nearly covers the plate and the 'filling' almost covers the flatbread, I've usually chosen the latter option. They wouldn't share their recipe with me, alas, but their bent is Mediterranean. If you wanted a more local twist, might you use mesquite flour as an element in a flatbread? I don't know whether it would be difficult to source in quantity, and I know it isn't *quite* from your neck of the woods.

gfron1 · June 23, 2014

CatPoet - that Hole Cake sounds interesting to me. I will need your help though since google just gives me some type of bundt sweet cake.

And Smithy, a soft flatbread could work especially if I shape it so its not as rustic. And you're very observant - we have mesquite but its scrub so the pods don't really get big enough to be worth harvesting. But ironically I went to a big mesquite conference a week ago and made all sorts of contacts down near Tucson.

A Puerto Rican friend just suggested pan de agua which might be interesting too if I added some flavor.

CatPoet · June 23, 2014

this is how this type looks like, the ones for my province contains a bit more rye and is a bit more fluffy, but you get the idea.

When you make Örfilar, then you roll the dough out in to a big deep pan about 1 inch thick and then cut to size before rising. Like this one http://bakatochlagat.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/ragbitar-2/

Tunnbröd is a flat bread, it comes both in hard and soft. The first day you get it soft and the next day it has been dried out so it is hard. It is lovely. I could ask my mum for her recipe.

CatPoet · June 23, 2014

http://sockerblomman.blogspot.se/2011/01/halkakor.html This is hålkaka, I hope this works. Tunnbröd is a flatt bread that can be made soft or crispy.

Edited June 23, 2014 by CatPoet (log)

gfron1 · June 23, 2014

this is how this type looks like, the ones for my province contains a bit more rye and is a bit more fluffy, but you get the idea.

When you make Örfilar, then you roll the dough out in to a big deep pan about 1 inch thick and then cut to size before rising. Like this one http://bakatochlagat.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/ragbitar-2/

Tunnbröd is a flat bread, it comes both in hard and soft. The first day you get it soft and the next day it has been dried out so it is hard. It is lovely. I could ask my mum for her recipe.

that link doesn't work for me. Any chance you can give me a recipe?

**djyee100** · June 23, 2014

Some of the best sandwich breads I've ever eaten were served at the old Tassajara Bakery in SF a very long time ago. The recipes were co-developed by Deborah Madison, former exec chef at the Greens restaurant in SF and now cookbook author. The recipes are in her original Greens cookbook. The recipes are also in the Tassajara Bread Book (by Edward Espe Brown), but I find Madison's recipes better written and more reliable. Madison's other cookbooks contain bread recipes that are worth checking out, especially in Vegetarian Cooking for Everyone.

In particular, I suggest that you look at the recipes for the Potato Bread and Dill Cottage Cheese Bread, both loaf pan breads that were used for sandwiches at the Tassajara Bakery. IIRC, the Greens restaurant in SF is still using these breads for the sandwiches at their take-out counter.

Another possibility is to experiment with a challah dough baked in a loaf pan, which could make a suitable (and delicious) sandwich bread. There's a recipe for a lean challah in Vegetarian Cooking for Everyone. It's made with water and veg oil, no milk.

While surfing I found this recipe for sandwich bread. See post #8.

https://community.cookinglight.com/showthread.php?100349-ISO-T-amp-T-Sandwich-Bread

Franci · June 23, 2014

I love this Italian bread that is called pane a pasta dura

I don't know how good is this particular recipe because I only google it

http://vivalafocaccia.com/en/2012/01/08/video-recipe-for-hard-dough-bread/

You can make also a filone. It's more compact than a ciabatta but the crust is cruchy, not hard and the inside soft

if you google immage you can see different formats:

biove is one http://it.cookandcraftlab.com/2014/01/panepastadura.html

miccone di stradella http://www.dolcesalatoweb.it/2011/02/il-miccone-di-stradella/

Then I love for soups or charcuterie the pizza di pasqua al formaggio

http://aniceecannella.blogspot.com/2008/03/pizza-di-pasqua-al-formaggio.html

Also, don't know if it's too rustic for you but I've always like "panfocaccia"

http://profumodilievito.blogspot.com/2010/05/panfocaccia.html

And a good potato bread is moist and it's very good with the addition of herbs or cheese.

SylviaLovegren · June 23, 2014

I love Greens/Deborah Madison's potato bread for sandwiches. It's a classic loaf, soft and delicious. Equally good toasted with lotsa butter!

CatPoet · June 23, 2014

I am going to bake a batch of Örfilar / hålkaka tomorrow and take pictures, it will be much easier. I also realised that the note book with the recipe is next to my sleeping daughter, I read to her the recipe for potato cakes before bed time... So I make it tomorrow and you all can see what I use.

**Chris Hennes** · June 23, 2014

Have you tried the hamburger bun recipe in Modernist Cuisine? It makes a basic white bun with a very nice texture for burgers, and the techniques used to achieve it give you a range of textural options.

Matthew Kirshner · June 23, 2014

Would pita be out of the question? Or even a Multi-grain baggette?

Anna N · June 23, 2014

I love this Italian bread that is called pane a pasta dura

I don't know how good is this particular recipe because I only google it
http://vivalafocaccia.com/en/2012/01/08/video-recipe-for-hard-dough-bread/

You can make also a filone. It's more compact than a ciabatta but the crust is cruchy, not hard and the inside soft

if you google immage you can see different formats:
biove is one http://it.cookandcraftlab.com/2014/01/panepastadura.html
miccone di stradella http://www.dolcesalatoweb.it/2011/02/il-miccone-di-stradella/

Then I love for soups or charcuterie the pizza di pasqua al formaggio
http://aniceecannella.blogspot.com/2008/03/pizza-di-pasqua-al-formaggio.html

Also, don't know if it's too rustic for you but I've always like "panfocaccia"
http://profumodilievito.blogspot.com/2010/05/panfocaccia.html

And a good potato bread is moist and it's very good with the addition of herbs or cheese.

Fascinating breads, Franci. Thanks for sharing.

gfron1 · June 23, 2014

Yeah, so many good options being thrown out. I'll have to start by weeding out ones that would take too much time away from my kitchen.

**Mjx** · June 24, 2014

For about a decade, I've made a sandwich bread that yields a good-sized loaf from 500g flour, 10g yeast, 350-400ml/g water (depending on how slack I want the dough), and 3g salt. The addtion of 50+g butter or olive oil makes it really tender. I usually use spelt flour, but the recipe is flexible enough to work well with every sort of flour or flour combination I've thrown at it.

This yields a tasty loaf in a 2-hour turnaround time, about half an hour for each rise (but it becomes amazing with longer rises).

I often spread out the dough to about 1.5cm and cook it on a sheet pan to make schiacciata, which adds some variety to my boyfriend's packed lunches.

I've scaled this recipe to make up four loaves (the most I've made in a go, for a party), and the results are the same as for the single-loaf recipe.

CatPoet · June 24, 2014

I be making it tomorrow, I am out of fine rye flour and the store is out of it too and I am not going for a 1 hour journey to get flour today, it will be picked up tomorrow when I am going shopping anyway.

CatPoet · June 24, 2014

What bothers me is I was in the big town today, I did look at flour and thought Nah I have a bag, yeah I have a bag of coarse stone ground rye flour that makes anything taste MDF, but makes lovely Danish rye bread.Oh well , I just pick it up tomorrow and I give you nice walk through.

gfron1 · June 24, 2014

I'm not in a rush - so thank you for your efforts. I'll just look forward to a relaxed walk through by you I've got plenty of other research to do here as well. Yours is very intriguing to me.

**Smithy** · June 24, 2014

For about a decade, I've made a sandwich bread that yields a good-sized loaf from 500g flour, 10g yeast, 350-400ml/g water (depending on how slack I want the dough), and 3g salt. The addtion of 50+g butter or olive oil makes it really tender. I usually use spelt flour, but the recipe is flexible enough to work well with every sort of flour or flour combination I've thrown at it.
This yields a tasty loaf in a 2-hour turnaround time, about half an hour for each rise (but it becomes amazing with longer rises).

I often spread out the dough to about 1.5cm and cook it on a sheet pan to make schiacciata, which adds some variety to my boyfriend's packed lunches.

I've scaled this recipe to make up four loaves (the most I've made in a go, for a party), and the results are the same as for the single-loaf recipe.

Mjx, for about how much time, and at what temperature, should this be baked? Does the answer change if it's flattened to make schiacciata? If so, what would the new numbers be?

CatPoet · June 25, 2014

So I go in to town, get to a lager store and I get told they dont carry such exotic flour... When the heck did fine rye flour become exotic in Sweden? The land of rye in nearly every bread there is, yes even our white bread has it. Oh and apparently a weird flour from New Zealand isnt exotic, since they have that . Came home not pleased at all and ran into a very displeased neighbor, who grumpt about the lack of fine rye flour. Since we both have this problem, she promised to take me in to store on the other side of town to find the flour.

So tomorrow and by Holy Loaf I will raise hell if the store doesnt carry it.

**Mjx** · June 25, 2014

For about a decade, I've made a sandwich bread that yields a good-sized loaf from 500g flour, 10g yeast, 350-400ml/g water (depending on how slack I want the dough), and 3g salt. The addtion of 50+g butter or olive oil makes it really tender. I usually use spelt flour, but the recipe is flexible enough to work well with every sort of flour or flour combination I've thrown at it.
This yields a tasty loaf in a 2-hour turnaround time, about half an hour for each rise (but it becomes amazing with longer rises).
I often spread out the dough to about 1.5cm and cook it on a sheet pan to make schiacciata, which adds some variety to my boyfriend's packed lunches.
I've scaled this recipe to make up four loaves (the most I've made in a go, for a party), and the results are the same as for the single-loaf recipe.
Mjx, for about how much time, and at what temperature, should this be baked? Does the answer change if it's flattened to make schiacciata? If so, what would the new numbers be?

Oops. Sorry about the omission.

If I'm baking a standard loaf, I preheat the oven to 225C° (437F°), give the bread 20 minutes (with convection; this is standard in Danish ovens), then reduce the temperature to 200C° (392F°), and give it another 25 minutes.

If I'm slammed with work and minutes mean everything, I just preheat to 200C°, shove in the bread, set the timer for 50 minutes, and it's still fine.

If my schedule is not so hectic, I preheat the oven with a cast iron pan in, then, after I've put in the bread, I fill the pan with water; this comes out at the 20 minute mark, when I adjust the temperature. If you have an oven with a steam setting, you're in luck.

To be honest, I don't usually check the internal temperature, but when I do, I'm looking for a minimum of 95C° (about 200F°), which yields a darker, crustier bread; 90C° (about 195F°) would give the just-golden-brown surface that is more characteristic of American sandwich bread (going with just 200C°/392F° would probably help yield this result, too; although you might want to brush the top with milk).

I've used loaf pans of varying sizes and shapes, and have found they yield loaves that are more or less the same, without any adjustment to time or temperature.

If I'm making schiacciata, I give it 25 minutes at 225C° (437F°), but keep an eye on it, since the Husqvarna oven from the mid-80s that I'm using these days is prone to random heat spikes (it's also 15 to 35C° off, depending on temperature used, how long it's been on, etc), so it can suddenly incinerate things with no warning.

CatPoet · June 26, 2014

First of all I want to say, my bread doesnt look its best today, baking rye bread during a thunderstorm isnt a great idea. Yours will look much better, trust me. And also this have a bit more rye then it should, my daughter thought should add extra. And I made half a batch and not big one.

Ingredients : 600 gram fine rye flour , 600 gram plain flour, 4 tablespoon of dry active yeast or 100 gram fresh, 500 grams butter, melted (can be substituted for 50 ml rapeseed oil/canola oil), 500 ml luke warm water. 4 teaspoon salt and 6 tablespoon brun sirap ( this is Nordic thing, it made of beet sugar, you can get good result if you mix half dark treacle and half golden syrup).

Mix in everything but the plain flour, you can do this in a mixer, I couldnt be bother to get mine out today.

Now work in the plain flour, until you have a smooth dough.

Keep kneading it a bit more until smooth and easy to work with but not dry.

Leave it under a towel to rise until double in size, this can take between 40 mins till 2 hours.

Roll the dough out to about ½ - 1 inch thick, remember it will double in height. In the background you can see the tray I normally use for a full size dough.

Please into you chosen baking tray, this one I am using needs paper to be able to loosen the bread while the black need only flour.

Prick the bread with a fork, it is important or it gets weird when it rises the second time. My grand mother had a "bread stabber" that made stars, so cute.

Now divide the bread in as big pieces you need. Cover and rise for 40 min. Brush with cold water and then bake at 225 C for 10 minutes. Take out the bread and quickly brush with hot water and if you want a darker crust add a little dark treacle to the water, back in for another 10 minutes and brush with hot water and done.

This is how it looks done, it break apart easily and normally looks nice.

When the thunderstorms , hopefully by tomorrow I bake another pan.

Edited June 26, 2014 by CatPoet (log)

Franci · June 26, 2014

It looks very nice CatPoet, I'll try after our vacation

500 grams butter, melted (can be substituted for 50 ml rapeseed oil/canola oil),

50 g butter?

CatPoet · June 27, 2014

Oh dear, it was supposed to 100 gram of butter, and 100 oil. I was bit tired yesterday due this bloody weather and i manage to mangled the recipe. I am so sorry.

We found out last night my scale is off with a bit, so I got hold of my neighbors one and measured again. Because the recipe is based on my grandmothers coffee cups and not gram. So there , now it is perfect and YES I have another pan going again.

this is the true recipe.

Ingredients 500 gram fine rye flour , 600 gram plain flour ( wont be using all), 4 tablespoon of dry active yeast or 100 gram fresh, 100 grams butter, melted (can be substituted for 100 ml rapeseed oil/canola oil), 1000 ml luke warm water. 4 teaspoon salt and 6 tablespoon brun sirap ( this is Nordic thing, it made of beet sugar, you can get good result if you mix half dark treacle and half golden syrup).

Edited June 27, 2014 by CatPoet (log)

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