Rick Bayless and Burger King - Part 2

[hillbill]

A lot of the upscale brands use cane sugar: Boylan's, Monterey, etc. As do many sodas from Mexico. And, as mentioned above, the Passover versions of Coke and other big-brand sodas are not made with corn syrup because corn, being a grain, is not an acceptable Passover food for most observant Jews.

Thank you for the suggestions.

Okay, maybe I should know this since I'm Jewish (albeit 100% assimilated and disenfranchised from my heritage,) but what makes corn syrup unacceptable? Isn't it leavened bread that's taboo during the holiday?

Further off-topic (or perhaps more on-topic?) what do people think of Johnny Rocket's burgers? I've been wanting to ask this question but didn't know where to ask since I saw a segment on FoodTV unwrapped where they made a point of how the hamburgers are made from fresh, not frozen meat.

BTW they also call their french fries "American Fries," I don't know if this predates all the "freedom fries" nonsense or not.

Johnny Rockets

Our hamburger patties are a full 1/3 pound of fresh ground beef, seasoned, hand-pressed and grilled to perfection.

Our AMERICAN FRIES are served fresh and hot out of the fryer. No heat lamps and no waiting!

Our Shakes are made with hand-dipped premium vanilla ice cream and our Malts are blended with real powdered malt.

[hillbill]

Michel, your member number is at sixes and sevens.  (Sorry, I love that expression).

I just noticed that I'm member number 6666. Does that make me extra devilish? Devilish squared? Super-sized devil?

[tommy]

Michel, your member number is at sixes and sevens.  (Sorry, I love that expression).

I just noticed that I'm member number 6666. Does that make me extra devilish? Devilish squared? Super-sized devil?

and that was your 66th post.

creepy.

[hillbill]

Michel, your member number is at sixes and sevens.  (Sorry, I love that expression).

I just noticed that I'm member number 6666. Does that make me extra devilish? Devilish squared? Super-sized devil?

and that was your 66th post.

creepy.

[Dave the Cook]

The sugar geek speaks:

Do we know for sure that the Passover versions of the big American brands are in fact made with cane sugar? They might be made with beet sugar, which, as far as this goy knows, is perfectly Kosher, and often cheaper. Mostly I'm curious: while I believe there to be taste and subtle texture differences between HFCS- and sugar-based Coke, I seriously doubt anyone could tell the difference between cane and beet sugar, even if there weren't a bunch of other flavor components for the taste buds to contend with.

Coke does not handle Kosher certification at the corporate level. It's relegated to the bottlers, so availability will be localized. Certainly it's available in NYC, and some sections of Atlanta, but not every bottler will bother.

[sherribabee]

Someone mentioned BK and McDonalds in England. According to a freind who went to London recently, the UK versions blow the US chain's burgers away.

I have to disagree on this point. In the UK, the burgers taste gamey (perhaps due to grass-fed beef?). And the rest of the stuff (buns, toppings, assembly) was identical.

[Fat Guy]

Isn't it leavened bread that's taboo during the holiday?

The European (Ashkenazic) Jewish tradition is to disallow all grains in all forms, with the exception of matzoh that has been cooked according to certain timing and moisture regulations that keep it virtually unleavened. There's plenty of discussion as to the reasoning behind all this: some would say it's just symbolic, others would argue that any contact with liquid equals leavening of a kind, and there's also the argument that you're not giving up much on Passover if you can just substitute other grains for wheat. Note, however, that Sephardic Judaism does not prohibit things like corn and rice on Passover, possibly because in that tradition they didn't really use those products as wheat substitutes.

[Fat Guy]

Do we know for sure that the Passover versions of the big American brands are in fact made with cane sugar?

I'm pretty sure they use 100% cane sugar for the Passover Coke runs, but I don't know for sure about any other brands. And I agree with you that it probably wouldn't matter. I've never investigated this at the level you did in your Daily Gullet piece, "Crystal Unclear," but I've certainly never been able to tell the difference between beet and cane sugar when used in baking, etc. -- most of the time I'm not even sure which I'm buying. Is there even a chemical difference at all between the two in their ultra-refined forms?

[Mayhaw Man]

Sodas made with corn syrup cost a few cents less per gallon but don't taste nearly as good as sodas sweetened with cane sugar.

Is it possible to find a soda with cane sugar in a supermarket? I've been looking in my local supermarkets since I read about cane sugar vs. corn syurp here and haven't found any. I thought that perhaps one of the specialty or ethnic sodas would have cane sugar but so far everything I've checked (even the pretentious uppity-looking brands) has corn syrup.

I almost never drink regular sodas but this corn syurp vs. cane sugar issue sure has piqued my curiosity and I'd like to do a taste comparison.

Abita Root Beer is made with Domino Cane Sugar. It is available from many mailorder sources if you can't find it locally (I think it is in alot of states, but not widely distributed). As a disclosure I should note that I was involved in the inception of the product and it's original distribution, although I have absolutely nothing to do with the company now. It is, however, still damn good root beer.

Abita Root Beer Home Page

Edited October 15, 2003 by Mayhaw Man (log)

[Dave the Cook]

Do we know for sure that the Passover versions of the big American brands are in fact made with cane sugar?

I'm pretty sure they use 100% cane sugar for the Passover Coke runs, but I don't know for sure about any other brands. And I agree with you that it probably wouldn't matter. I've never investigated this at the level you did in your Daily Gullet piece, "Crystal Unclear," but I've certainly never been able to tell the difference between beet and cane sugar when used in baking, etc. -- most of the time I'm not even sure which I'm buying. Is there even a chemical difference at all between the two in their ultra-refined forms?

Sucrose is sucrose. There's a potential 0.05% difference between beet and cane in retail packaging, but in practice it's much less. I have never seen scientific evidence that there is any difference in flavor. And as careful as Coke is about its flavor profile, I'm sure it would refine those few little bits away if it thought they made any difference.

(Thanks for the plug.)

[hillbill]

Abita Root Beer is made with Domino Cane Sugar. It is available from many mailorder sources if you can't find it locally (I think it is in alot of states, but not widely distributed). As a disclosure I should note that I was involved in the inception of the product and it's original distribution, although I have absolutely nothing to do with the company now. It is, however, still damn good root beer.

Abita Root Beer Home Page

Looking at the web site I thought it was interesting that it's a microbrewery that's also making root beer. I realize that root beer started as an prohibition-era alternative to beer (right?) but I thought that for legal or corporate-logistical reasons nowadays beer is made by beer companies and soda was made by soda companies.

[hollywood]

Sucrose is sucrose. There's a potential 0.05% difference between beet and cane in retail packaging, but in practice it's much less. I have never seen scientific evidence that there is any difference in flavor. And as careful as Coke is about its flavor profile, I'm sure it would refine those few little bits away if it thought they made any difference.

What you don't realize is that the cane sugar Cokes have been treated with magnets.

[Jason Perlow]

Do we know for sure that the Passover versions of the big American brands are in fact made with cane sugar?

I'm pretty sure they use 100% cane sugar for the Passover Coke runs, but I don't know for sure about any other brands. And I agree with you that it probably wouldn't matter. I've never investigated this at the level you did in your Daily Gullet piece, "Crystal Unclear," but I've certainly never been able to tell the difference between beet and cane sugar when used in baking, etc. -- most of the time I'm not even sure which I'm buying. Is there even a chemical difference at all between the two in their ultra-refined forms?

Cane Sugar soda is actually quite common in Latin American countries. Get thee to a Mexican, Colombian or Domincan-owned grocery store, and tehy'll have Coca-Cola, Squirt, Jarritos and any number of sodas (in glass bottles) made with cane sugar.

[Mayhaw Man]

Abita Root Beer is made with Domino Cane Sugar. It is available from many mailorder sources if you can't find it locally (I think it is in alot of states, but not widely distributed). As a disclosure I should note that I was involved in the inception of the product and it's original distribution, although I have absolutely nothing to do with the company now. It is, however, still damn good root beer.

Abita Root Beer Home Page

Looking at the web site I thought it was interesting that it's a microbrewery that's also making root beer. I realize that root beer started as an prohibition-era alternative to beer (right?) but I thought that for legal or corporate-logistical reasons nowadays beer is made by beer companies and soda was made by soda companies.

Actually, there are a number of small breweries making products (primarily soft drinks) other than beer. We started doing it for much the same reason as the others did. There is a very expensive bottling line sitting idle and when idle it is a dead cost, not a money making part of the business. We already had a distribution process that could handle it and it seemed like a good idea. It worked out rather well for Abita (as it has, for example, for Sprecher in Milwaukee), but if we had known how much time and effort it would take to get shelf space for a soft drink, I am not sure that we would have done it.

You see, with beer it is federally prohibited for retailers to charge money to put the product on the shelves (they can refuse you altogether, but they can't make you pay for placement. Hence the "down in the corner location" of many small brewery products). The big breweries get around this by, among other things, providing lots of cool point of sale items and displays for various events and holidays, which has the same effenct as buying shelf space. Small breweries just can't compete on that level (and are not trying, as we are trying to sell taste to more developed palate, rather than blandness to the masses). For example, most people simply do not understand that a good quality neon (even bought in huge numbers) can cost two hundred dollars or more. I takes alot of six packs to make up that cost.

Soft drinks, on the other hand, are just groceries and the big guys (Pepsi and Coke) pay a fortune to get those end caps and center spacings. Most stores handle them to maximum profit by splitting the year between them. Six months with a giant coke display, six months with a giant pepsi display. Small soft drink bottlers don't have a chance unless they go into it with the same mind set as a microbrewer, with the idea that they are going to sell to a smaller number of discerning customers and charge more for their products.

We got into the pure cane sugar thing because I grew up on a farm and wanted to use as many Louisiana products as possible. Also, we got to put a nice logo on the bottle that is controlled by the State Agriculture Dept. when a large enough percentage of your product is made with native ingrediants.

The other reason we got into soft drinks (maybe the primary reason) was that Abita Springs is a very small town (one light, two stores, etc.) in a fairly rural (although increasingly suburban) area outside of New Orleans and we wanted to be able to sponsor kids ball teams and donate to local schools, events, etc. and we clearly could not do this with the beer, as the neo prohibitionist set thinks that a donation from a brewery would cause small children to rush out and spend their allowances on expensive, esoteric brews. Basically the policy at Abita for a long time (don't know about now) was to give the stuff by the 1/2 bbl. to anyone that was having an event and would put up a sign. We bought alot of good will, had alot of fun (which was the original point of the business anyway), and got to have our kids tell people they played for the "Root Beers".

[Ling]

As long as Rick Bayless doesn't end up in FHM magazine - I think I'll be fine with all of this.

Well I'm not in any hurry to see him on the cover of Cosmo anytime soon.

[Do they even put men on the cover of Cosmo? They should! I'd buy it!]

We get Cosmo's "All About Men" issue once a year (it's a special issue). Don't they have it in the States? Always a hot guy on the cover. Lots of pics inside too.

I've never really paid enough attention to Cosmo to notice. But I'll be on the lookout for a man-issue. Is it sold on newsstands, or only available to subscribers? When does it come out?

Yes, they're sold on newstands. I believe they come out around May-June. :)

[bloviatrix]

What's interesting is that this is a broad new advertising strategy for BK.  They must be really losing ground to McD.

Bruce

I was thinking about this change in advertising strategy as well. McD has new campaign that seems to me to appeal to the hip-hop generation. Perhaps, BK is trying to re-position itself as an "upscale" fast food joint and use the concept that "if it appeals to people who are food professionals, it must be good."

Do we have anyone who reads Ad Age or the like here who can comment on a possible re-positioning?

[hillbill]

Actually, there are a number of small breweries making products (primarily soft drinks) other than beer. We started doing it for much the same reason as the others did. There is a very expensive bottling line sitting idle and when idle it is a dead cost, not a money making part of the business. ...................

You see, with beer it is federally prohibited for retailers to charge money to put the product on the shelves (they can refuse you altogether, but they can't make you pay for placement. Hence the "down in the corner location" of many small brewery products). The big breweries get around this by, among other things, providing lots of cool point of sale items and displays for various events and holidays, which has the same effenct as buying shelf space. Small breweries just can't compete on that level (and are not trying, as we are trying to sell taste to more developed palate, rather than blandness to the masses). ...............

We bought alot of good will, had alot of fun (which was the original point of the business anyway), and got to have our kids tell people they played for the "Root Beers".

"Let's all root for the ROOT BEERS!"

Thanks for sharing this, it was all very interesting. Particularly about the illegality of placement fees for beer. The whole placement fee (or whatever it's called) phenomenon is so bizarre/fascinating that I wish I knew more about it than the sentence or two I'll occasionslly read in an article about retailers or manufacturers.

[badthings]

I'm just acknowledging that cuisine these days is increasingly a middle class pursuit and that the rest of the population is going to be increasingly dependent on prepared foods.

"cuisine" is by definition a bourgeois pursuit, notwithstanding certain italian commies.

what is become increasingly middle class is simple food based on good ingredients, which take time to prepare -- time that only those of us who don't work at Walmart can spare.

[jhlurie]

Saw the Rachel Ray BK commercial last night. Somehow the fact that she uses almost the exact same scripted words as Bayless makes the whole thing even worse. If these shills wrote their own copy you might get a feeling that it was more than just a total money grubbing sell-out.

I suppose at some point (maybe today) I'll risk my health and sanity to see if this sandwich is less offensive than the last one. I suppose its at least possible, since I DID sort of like that Caeser Chicken Salad thing they have, even if the "salad" part is a total lie.

[jilly rizzo]

If these shills wrote their own copy you might get a feeling that it was more than just a total money grubbing sell-out.

I suppose at some point (maybe today) I'll risk my health and sanity to see if this sandwich is less offensive than the last one.

this is what i don't get. if you are so opposed to the schilling...

DON'T BUY IT!!!

madonna mia!

pot kettle, inc.

[tirgoddess]

Fat Guy- It was an exchange between you and eliotmorgan (sp?) on about page 21.

[hollywood]

Further off-topic (or perhaps more on-topic?) what do people think of Johnny Rocket's burgers?  I've been wanting to ask this question but didn't know where to ask since I saw a segment on FoodTV unwrapped where they made a point of how the hamburgers are made from fresh, not frozen meat. 

In California, or at least Southern California, I think there are better choices than Johnny Rockets (tho I like their grilled chicken breast snadwich). On the low end, you can get better burgers for the same or less at Fat Burger or In N Out. On the higher end, you can go to Houston's, pay a little more and take advantage of the more extensive menu choices there.

[hillbill]

In California, or at least Southern California, I think there are better choices than Johnny Rockets (tho I like their grilled chicken breast snadwich).  On the low end, you can get better burgers for  the same or less at Fat Burger or In N Out.  On the higher end, you can go to Houston's, pay a little more and take advantage of the more extensive menu choices there.

No In N Out or Fat Burger or Houston's in NYC.

But there is Johnny Rockets

Edited October 15, 2003 by hillbill (log)

[sherribabee]

No In N Out or Fat Burger or Houston's in NYC.

We have Houston's in NYC...

Unless there's some other burger place out there with the same name?

Edited October 15, 2003 by sherribabee (log)

[Dave the Cook]

No In N Out or Fat Burger or Houston's in NYC.

There are Houston's at:

153 E. 53rd

378 Park Avenue South

Roosevelt Field Shopping Center, Garden City

One Riverside Square, Hackensack