Too sweet. Is it my simple syrup or recipe?

[pto]

Hi, i'm new to the forum, and relatively new to the world of cocktails.

 

I bought Dale DeGroff's Essential Cocktails the other day and I really like it. However, I found a couple of the recipies came out way too sweet for me, i.e.Jack Rose. I don't have the book in front of me, but if I recall correclty it calls for 3/4 oz simple syrup (1.5oz applejack, 3/4oz lemon juice, 1/4oz grenadine).  My girlfriend loved this drink, but I had to reshake mine with more juice and applejack, I mean it was unbearably sweet. I also compared the recipe to Gary Regans Bartenders Bible and Colleen Grahams recipe: http://cocktails.about.com/od/cocktailrecipes/r/jack_rose.htm neither of which call for simple syrup.

 

Several of Degroffs recipies call for a lot of simple syrup.

 

One possibility that occured to me is that DeGroffs simple syrup is weaker than mine. He talks about his mixing ratio in the back of the book and it sounds like he dillutes his syrup to make the drink size larger. For convienience, I don't make my own, but buy Monin Pure Cane Sugar syrup. Should I be able to use this as any other simple syrup or is it too concentrated?

 

Anyone have experience with either the Monin syrup or the DeGroff book?

 

 

[Chris Amirault]

I think the Monin is what's known as a rich simple syrup, meaning more than a 1:1 ratio of sugar to water. Someone around here will know that. 

 

But, regardless of that, DeGroff tends to go a bit on the sweet side as compared to other bartenders. Try cutting back and seeing what you think. 

[Hassouni]

First off, pretty much every Jack Rose recipe I've seen does not call for sugar syrup - the Grenadine is the sweetening agent.

 

Also, having nearly completed the Barsmarts course, and looking at Essential Cocktails, DeGroff DEFINITELY makes his cocktails sweet. He is, as far as I know, calling for 1:1 SS, which makes the 3/4 oz syrup to 3/4 lemon/lime more bearable that it would be with 3/4 2:1, but then he only calls for 1.5 oz of spirit in a standard sour recipe, which is really not much to balance everything else.

 

Starting more or less here on the Daiquiri thread, there's a discussion of the the right ratios for a Daiquiri, but that applies to any sour. The sweetest one that seems to get the most appeal is 2.5 oz rum, 3/4 lime, 1/2 2:1 SS. This would be what Barsmarts refers to as "maximum acceptable sweetness," in my opinion. Several of us (myself include) prefer something dryer.

 

Now, granted that's calling for 2:1 syrup and DeGroff is most likely calling for 1:1, so it's not the most straightforward conversion, but 1/2 2:1 SS perfectly balances the 3/4 lime juice in a way that it is neither cloying nor especially sour. Quite neutral. So given that neutral base, look how much more  spirit the Daiquiri recipe calls for: a full ounce more than DeGroff's standard sour formula. Keep in mind that he admits his recipes are a starting point, and his ratio pleases the most people most of the time, but is not universal.

 

Anyway that got a bit out of hand, but bottom line - DeGroff's recipes tend to be sweet and skimp on the booze, whereas a lot of us prefer dryer drinks with more booze (2 oz is typical). Also check out the Daiquiri discussion I linked.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Hassouni (log)

[lesliec]

Monin's site (http://www.monin.com/en-gb/products/premium-syrups/monin-pure-cane-sugar-syrup) isn't forthcoming on the makeup of their syrup, other than saying it's sugar and water (surprise!).  But simple syrup is so easy to make - give it a try.

 

I think much of the enjoyment of cocktails is around tweaking recipes to match your taste.  Your girlfriend seems to prefer them sweeter than you, so you've already learned something valuable.

[Adam George]

According to Diffords, Monin syrup sits at a similar brix to 2:1 sugar syrup by volume:  Around 65 Brix.

[Plantes Vertes]

Hello pto, and welcome to eGullet!

 

Most recipes rely on (slightly more) grenadine for sweetness so your opinion is well supported as well as judicious from a dental point of view. You could try ditching the simple and increasing the grenadine if the result is not sweet enough. I would not make a drink for myself with that much sugar in any case and certainly not with only 1.5oz booze. You should increase the booze proportion whatever you do

 

I agree with you that several of the recipes in this book seem very sweet, like the Clover Club and the Julep and the Toddy and the Sazerac and the Ward Eight and the Bacardi Cocktail and the Bee's Knees and... and then I quit looking. Perhaps it would be wise to halve the syrup as a rule of thumb and increase from there if necessary.

 

By the way, the part of the book you refer to relates to the relative sweetness and size of cocktails of the past vs those of today; Degroff says that a richer syrup was used in the past because the drinks were smaller, but that now a 1:1 syrup is common. The logic of this text seems quite dubious to me but at any rate I don't think Degroff dilutes his 1:1 any further.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Plantes Vertes (log)

[EvergreenDan]

... rich simple syrup, meaning more than a 1:1 ratio of sugar to water.

Yes. Rich simple syrup usually means 2 parts sugar to 1 part water (by volume), whereas simple syrup is assumed to be 1:1. And, yes, some people use 1.5:1 just to confuse things.

 

The sweetness of these syrups isn't as different as you'd think, though.

 

With a little experience, I think you'll be able to look at a recipe and adapt it for your taste. I almost never add simple syrup to a cocktail until I've tasted it (warm, before ice) to get an idea of what it's going to be like. I usually reduce or skip simple syrup, and often adjust the acid by increasing the lime or lemon or substituting dry vermouth for some portion of the sweet vermouth.

 

When making cocktails for others, you need to gauge how they respond to sweet drinks.

 

I consider sugar the enemy of cocktail ingredients. You can always add sugar if you want, but it is hard to get it out of a drink without affecting other aspects of balance. 

 

It is trivial to make your own 2:1 syrup. Pour the sugar into a squeeze bottle. Pour in hot water. Shake. Put it down but shake it every time you walk by. Within a few minutes it will all be dissolved. Keeps in the fridge (some sugar will crystallize out) indefinitely. 1:1 will not keep forever.  

[Hassouni]

Also, to add to everyone else's helpful input, 2:1 dilutes drinks less and makes for a richer, silkier mouthfeel (especially in stirred drinks)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Consider gum syrup (made and sold by an eGullet member) I am just about to order more:

 

http://smallhandfoods.com/store/index.php/syrups/gum-syrup

 

 

Note, having read two of his books I find DeGroff's recipes far too sweet.  Different people like very different amounts of sweetness.

[Hassouni]

Note, having read two of his books I find DeGroff's recipes far too sweet.  Different people like very different amounts of sweetness.

 

You're not the only one, apparently!

[brinza]

I'm glad others have mentioned that DeGroff's recipes tend toward the sweeter, because I've noticed that pattern, too, but I still love his books anyway. I wasn't aware that his recipe for the Jack Rose called for simple syrup, though. Wow. Perhaps I never really looked at it, because I used to automatically turn to the one in Vintage Spirits & Forgotten Cocktails, but I've since discovered that to make a nice Jack Rose where the flavor of the applejack comes through nicely, and the lemon and grenadine are well-balanced, the 8:2:1 ratio works best: 2 ounces applejack, 1/2 ounce lemon juice, 1/4 ounce grenadine.

[Rafa]

It's worth keeping in mind that DeGroff's heyday behind the stick was during the very nadir of US drinks culture, when his recipes probably seemed fairly dry beside all the neon Hulkgasm-tinis sold alongside them. 

Edited April 18, 2014 by Rafa (log)

[Hassouni]

Yeah I came to the same conclusion, but I'm wondering why a book in 2008 still has that sweetness happening