Pizza Bianca - alla Roscioli and others...

[weinoo]

After a fantastic trip to Rome earlier this month (more to come, at some point), I needed to try (again) my hand at pizza bianca, Rome's favorite food to eat out of hand. Forno and Roscioli are but 2 examples, and they're both great.

Last night I started a no-knead, high-hydration dough; about 75% hydration, only water, flour, salt and yeast. Kenji's recipe here is a good one.

Prior to baking...

After...

The structure of the dough...

Sliced and stuffed with a bit of Prosciutto San Daniele...

Bill Klapp will be happy to know I used no fancy equipment!

[weinoo]

So, after a trip to Rome in February, I am back working on pizza bianca, and this attempt wasn't bad.  It's about a 70% hydration dough, mixed in the food processor, and rested in the fridge for 48 hours.

 

 

Baked in the CSO, for about 18 minutes.

[shain]

On 4.4.2018 at 3:38 PM, weinoo said:

Baked in the CSO, for about 18 minutes.

 

Looks great.

At what temp are you baking, 18 minutes is pretty short, so I guess it's quite high?

[weinoo]

19 minutes ago, shain said:

 

Looks great.

At what temp are you baking, 18 minutes is pretty short, so I guess it's quite high?

Yes, as high as it goes - 450F.

[Smokeydoke]

It looks like a good focaccia. Nevermind, just read the Serious Eats article. It is not a focaccia.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Smokeydoke (log)

[weinoo]

16 hours ago, Smokeydoke said:

It looks like a good focaccia. Nevermind, just read the Serious Eats article. It is not a focaccia.

 

 

right, they are a little different in formula, but you can them all (pizze, focaccia, bianca, et.al.) flatbreads!

 

I'm pretty sure pizza bianca is a Roman thing, whereas focaccia emanated from Liguria/Genoa. And in Tuscany, they call it schiacciata.

[weinoo]

We have a few pizza topics, so indulge me for posting this here...

 

While I doubt I'll ever approach the deliciousness of the pizza bianca/pizza rosa at Antico Forno Roscioli, Forno Campo de'Fiori, et al., I can't give up trying. So while leafing through a few books, I came across a fairly benign recipe in Parla's Tasting Rome, (eG-friendly Amazon.com link) which as it happens, is very similar to Kenji's recipe on Serious Eats. Neither of these recipes is the same as the recipe in the Roscioli book (eG-friendly Amazon.com link) (which calls for milk as a small (10%) percentage of the liquid, and also adds malt (which I have to assume is non-diastatic malt powder). Now Katie certainly has a relationship with the Roscioli family, and certainly has a relationship with the Campo peeps, so a guess is that her recipe somehow incorporates their thinking, riffs on their ingredients, and takes their techniques into consideration. Like I'll never be able to do this...

 

 

Look at all that pizza!

 

Yesterday's attempt, dough started in the morning. Using 500 g KA bread flour, 80% hydration, 2 grams of instant yeast, 11 grams of salt. Folded maybe 4 times over the course of the next few hours, and baked at 6:30, after preheating the oven/steel for a hour. Half was spread with tomato, the other just olive oil and salt.

 

 

 

Not bad. Too, mmmmm, fluffy (?) for me. I let the dough proof on the baking sheet for an hour or so, and I think perhaps it shouldn't proof at all. But - it's a start.

 

Here's a quick look at Roscioli...

 

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by weinoo (log)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

13 minutes ago, weinoo said:

 

Too, mmmmm, fluffy (?) for me. I let the dough proof on the baking sheet for an hour or so, and I think perhaps it shouldn't proof at all. But - it's a start.

 

I understand this as you let it proof on the peel?    I have never heard of letting formed pizza dough proof further.   Discuss this?    Is this a typical method someplace or is it your construct?    

[weinoo]

Proofed in the half sheet pan on parchment but before stretching - this is the Kenji way. Baked for 5 minutes on the half sheet pan on the stone, then removed from the sheet pan and baked directly on the stone.

 

You can see how bubbly their dough is in that Roscioli video.

[weinoo]

I may actually be closer than I think - these are both from various visits to Roscioli:

 

 

[Duvel]

I do like Antico Forno Roscioli al lot, but for Pizza Bianca I am definitely more of a Bonci guy ... though if “fluffy” isn’t for you I understand your liking for the Roscioli variety.

 

 

[weinoo]

57 minutes ago, Duvel said:

I do like Antico Forno Roscioli al lot, but for Pizza Bianca I am definitely more of a Bonci guy ... though if “fluffy” isn’t for you I understand your liking for the Roscioli variety.

 

 

I love Bonci as much as the next person (and there's always a next person)...

 

 

But I'm hard pressed to call it true pizza bianca...

 

 

 

https://www.sbs.com.au/food/recipes/pizza-bianca

 

https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2012/01/no-knead-pizza-bianca.html

 

https://wgntv.com/midday-news/lunchbreak/lunchbreak-roman-style-street-food-pizza-pizza-bianca-di-forno-campo-de-fiori/

 

Bonci's Dough  The recipe: Pizza

1 kilo of flour (tipo 0 or tipo 1 – Burrato from Mulino Marino)
700 gr. water
40 gr extra virgin olive oil
20 gr sea salt
7 gr dried yeast

[weinoo]

Are you confused, @rotuts?

 

Pizza bianca recipes lack oil in the dough. Bonci's has a fair amount as well as less hydration.

[rotuts]

Im hopeful that's and old pic 

 

just saying 

 

not for me

 

but for others 

 

who might not be able 

 

to control theirs lives 

 

as most of us here 

 

at eG might do :

 

 

w respect to all of you

[weinoo]

3 minutes ago, rotuts said:

Im hopeful that's and old pic 

 

just saying 

Sadly, that's an old pic - haven't been to Roma since 2018. 

 

Haven't been outside of NYC since March, 2020.

 

What exactly is it you're worried about?

Edited January 30, 2021 by weinoo (log)

[rotuts]

Of course

 

some say Ive been confused 

 

for quite some time

 

maybe

 

but as much as some find

 

NYC 

 

delicious 

 

and good for them

 

New haven has far mr intruding 

 

pizza

 

at A or B 

 

its controversial down there

 

slo be it

 

you might  figure it out fr your self

 

just saying

[Duvel]

18 minutes ago, weinoo said:

But I'm hard pressed to call it true pizza bianca...

What Bonci is selling is pizza al taglio, with myriads of options. As one of them always have a pizza bianca, sometimes topped with rosemary and you can get it with fillings like Mortadella ... 

 

11 minutes ago, weinoo said:

Pizza bianca recipes lack oil in the dough.

I would contest this statement.

[weinoo]

1 minute ago, Duvel said:

I would contest this statement.

The two places making the best pizza bianca in the world of Rome have no oil in their doughs. 

 

Bonci is basically making focaccia.

[rotuts]

@weinoo

 

well

 

the same thing intelligent people [ sic ]

 

might be worried about :

 

doing that seems fine for you or for me

 

but 

 

not so god for someones Grandmother 

 

or Grandfather 

[Duvel]

On 1/30/2021 at 8:50 PM, weinoo said:

The two places making the best pizza bianca in the world of Rome have no oil in their doughs. 

Nope.

 

On 1/30/2021 at 8:50 PM, weinoo said:

Bonci is basically making focaccia.

YMMV. 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Duvel (log)

[weinoo]

Here's what is said in Bonci's book about his pizza Romana al taglio...

 

Quote

"This is Roman-style pizza al taglio - rectangular with an airy, foccacialike dough that can support an ample topping."

 

His recipes kind of bear that out.  They have a fair amount of oil when building the dough, and are baked in a pan, whereas I associate classic Roman pizza bianca dough as being built with no oil, baked on the oven floor, and topped with good oil pre and post bake. And salt. 

 

In any event, I made 2 doughs on Friday; one which I baked that day (above), and a slightly different dough (under 70% hydration) with a tiny bit of oil and a tiny bit of sugar; it went into the fridge after its overnight ferment. Baked after a good 36 hours in the fridge, in a sheet pan because there's no way I'm dealing with a peel and this thing...

 

 

 

Leftovers were had today for lunch, heated, sliced open and stuffed with a slice or two of Mangalista. Good stuff.

 

Gotta get me some Tipo 0 to play with that.

[weinoo]

A friend with knowledge of Roman pizza bianca in general, and specifically that of Roscioli's, suggested I seek this out:

 

 

Another variable to experiment with.

[IEATRIO]

Just a word to the wise for those here trying the Roscioli recipe, to save them some grief. Don't try to make the recipe with North American consumer flours -- I did and it didn't remotely work - soup.  I tried again with the Caputo 00 and the recipe ratio worked precisely as written in the book and the dough was perfectly hydrated and workable. I thought the finished results were good and worth the effort.

 

I think people make a mistake by lumping all Roman styles into a single Roman Style. As one would expect, there are many sub-styles. Those who prefer an airy style will enjoy the Roscioli recipe. I love Roscioli - though very much don't like Pizzarium/Bonci that is a similar style dough (though not remotely similar with the stuff he piles on top - but I prefer thinner "shorter" styles that I think are more typical outside of the tourist zones. These are often sheeted to get them so thin and crisp and made even crisper with a well oiled pan or even fat in the dough, which makes them ideal for simple sauceless toppings. Unfortunately, these are the most difficult  to make at home without the proper equipment (or skill) to make them so thin.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by IEATRIO (log)

[weinoo]

30 minutes ago, IEATRIO said:

I tried again with the Caputo 00 and the recipe ratio worked precisely as written in the book and the dough was perfectly hydrated and workable. I thought the finished results were good and worth the effort.

Can't wait to try with that Caputo 0.

 

Did you use the malt powder as well?

[IEATRIO]

12 hours ago, weinoo said:

Can't wait to try with that Caputo 0.

 

Did you use the malt powder as well?

 

I did, but I have no doubts that subbing for same weights of malt extract syrup, honey, or maltose, would also work fine in a pinch.