Brisket - marinade - sous vide questions

[Bojana]

I tried to figure it out from the sv thread but got lost in all the information. Hope it is ok to ask here.

I have 2000 g piece of brisket. Want to cook it for Saturday or Sunday. I cannot finish it on BBQ - crappy weather in Western Europe. Also, i made this lovely sauce/marinade, mix of mustard, ketchup, soy sauce, chilli oil and pickled jalapenos, fully smooth.

Never made brisket before, and found some SV pointers for 55C for 72 hours. I wanted to rub my sauce on the meat but what is the best time to do it? Before cooking, anc cooking in sauce? Or few hours before finishing? I really do not want mealy meat. But how to get Maillard reaction going? I saw a method from ideas in food, meat and sauce, wrap tightly in foil and 8 hours in 120C oven.

What would give me a more flavourful result, oven or SV?

Thanks, Bojana

[Norm Matthews]

I don't know anything about SV but re the sauce: I have discovered that when braising brisket, beer is a really good liquid to include in the cooking process. Coffee is good too.

[jayt90]

If I can't slow smoke it, I'll go indoors with a braise: slather with your sauce for an hour or two, then braise with an inch of liquid (beer, stock, Dr. Pepper, coffee are some things people use) in my tagine, or tightly lidded Staub type vessel.

Put it in a slow oven, 225F for 3 hours for this fairly small brisket. The internal temp should reach 190, any higher and it will get stringy. I make a sauce while it rests; then cut slices across the grain.

I really don't know about Maillard, unless maybe you sear first. I don't.

[rotuts]

SV will get brisket and corned beef fork tender with out being dry or stringy

http://forums.egullet.org/topic/145855-sous-vide-beef-bourguignon/

PedroG is always worth listening to.

as to the sauce, if it has a lot of salt in it the 72 hours might give your brisket a corned taste that might be good or might not

be what your are interested in.

[FeChef]

If your going to sous vide it, I would go 36 hours @135F-140F for med rare tender slices. If you want something pulled but not mealy or stringy you can go 24-36 hours @ 160. A simple 4.5% kosher salt water brine overnight will keep it juicy and tender but not give it a "corned" taste. You can slather with BBQ after its cooked and hit it with a blow torch to get a nice chared/glazed crust. Wont be the same as a good smoked brisket but will do the job.

[pbear]

Hey Bojana, my $0.02's worth.

First, as this is your first brisket, I'd recommend a standard braise. It's simple, effective and will give you a base line against which to compare your SV efforts. Personally, I prefer a covered pot to foil, as it's easier to monitor the meat (especially, to make sure it's not boiling; if it is, reduce the oven temp). With a standard braise you don't have to worry about browning, as that will happen as a matter of course. Indeed, this is another reason I prefer a covered pot, as it enables me to flip the meat a few times while cooking, to brown both sides (interestingly, it's the top which browns, not the bottom).

Second, when you get around to doing SV, expect to make a few runs at different times and temps until you discover which suits your preference. I tried the 72 hour brisket first, but found I prefer 36 hours at 150ºF. YMMV. The only way to ascertain which you prefer is to experiment. And you may find that each approach (including the standard braise) has its advantages and which you use depends on the effect you want for a particular meal. This is true of most meats, not just brisket.

Third, I've done lots of comparisons and feel that saucing after cooking SV works best (be sure to cook the sauce separately if you designed it as a simmer sauce). But others prefer the other way 'round and so may you. More experiments. Likewise on whether to salt. I do, lightly (1/4 tsp finely-ground per pound), but as rotuts mentions some feel this gives the meat a cured flavor. On the bright side, as you develop experience with these things, the lines begin to converge. For example, whether you prefer to sauce before or after SV probably will be consistent across all meats. Ditto with salt.

Fourth, how to brown after SV seems to me the subject on which folks disagree the most. Personally, I have a nice little countertop convection oven which does a great job at high heat for a short time (450ºF for ten minutes, flipping once halfway through). A really hot infrared broiler also would work. I tried torches, but find they're a bit fiddly (easy to scorch the meat). Some report good results searing in a skillet, but that's never worked for me with cooked meat (poor surface contact). Again, you'll figure out what works for you with practice.

Fifth, as suggested often in other SV threads, be sure to take notes on your efforts. It'll help you keep track of where you've been and what you want to try next. You can try to keep this in your head, and if you're able to do that all power to you. But most of us found notes to be very helpful.

[Bojana]

Thanks! I'll go with Pedro's advice to from beaf b thread to break the collagen, then proceed with traditional braise in my sauce for few hours. Will let you know how it turned out tomorrow.

[jayt90]

Let us know. I think it is overkill for a small piece of brisket, not specified as point, flat or deckel. If it works I'll be a convert.

[gfweb]

The good thing about SV for this is you can get perfect results every time. You'll be amazed at what you tolerated that now you might say is being a little overcooked.

[Bojana]

Reporting back. Brisket turned out amazing, very tender, falling apart but not dry. Meaty and beefy, mmmm.... I don't know whether the result would have been the same without the sv step, but whatever worked, worked well. I did 12 hours at 58c sv, then 3 hours in the oven at 125c.

[arjunkane]

I don't know anything about SV but re the sauce: I have discovered that when braising brisket, beer is a really good liquid to include in the cooking process. Coffee is good too.

Good to know Matthews!

[gfweb]

I had an extra short rib yesterday and just for the heck of it covered it with corned beef spices and the appropriate amount of salt and pink salt for the weight...and then popped it into the SV at 140 for 24 hours. Took it out just now and it looked and tasted just like the corned beef I screw around with for a week or so. Now perhaps a whole brisket will take a little longer to cure, but I wonder if the traditional few days to a week isn't a bit too long. I once had a chuck roast that I was curing have a brown central cm (as opposed to pink and cured), but it was thick and a dense cut of meat.

[rotuts]

Im not quite sure what you are getting at re the chuck roast ...

but are you comparing a 'cure' at 140 vs a cure at a lower temp or even refrigerated?

interested in your further thoughts on this, as for me the SV that I routinely do Ive found to suite me very well, but the finest thing Ive made are the St. Patrick day sales of point cut desalted/SV'd/Weber'd '130' smoked/ resealed and FZ

so I doubt I could get point cut un-corned cheaper than this but its a though.

once I save a bazzilion bucks or one BitCoin, I'll be able to move up one Shelf on the TJ's Plonk!

Edited December 8, 2013 by rotuts (log)

[gfweb]

The short rib that I cured and cooked simultaneously was about the size of a big bratwurst and is not a dense piece of meat, so it would be a good subject for the experiment that I did.

My point re the chuck was that over several days curing a dense thick cut did fail to have the center of it cured...so certainly there is a time-to-cure-curve that varies with thickness and probably cut of meat. It'd be nice to have that data and save time with curing.

Even so, for me this quick corning opens up possibilities I hadn't considered.

[rotuts]

""" quick corning opens up possibilities """

Id like to hear about them and follow them.

[scubadoo97]

Saw a 3.5+# point cut today at the grocery store. I may have to go back for it if it's still there as it could be a nice subject for SV or the smoker

Edited December 8, 2013 by scubadoo97 (log)

[gfweb]

""" quick corning opens up possibilities """

Id like to hear about them and follow them.

Experimentation, for one. A 24 hour cure/cook of multiple small pieces is an affordable and quick enough return for me to want to try varying the spices etc. and comparing head to head (or brisket to brisket). I'm pondering doing meats other than pork and beef as well.

[FeChef]

I am doing a really nice Middle point cut brisket today in the smoker and plan to finish it off in my basement SV rig. One of the disadvantages of finishing SV is the loss of "bark/crust". This got me thinking about...."TTC" (the texas crutch). How can we apply this technique as an advantage for SV?...What came to mind is to bring the Brisket to final target temp in the smoker, in my case im going 155F. Now wrap the brisket in butcher paper, or plain ol brown bag and then vacuum bag and finish off in the SV. My thoughts is the paper will absorb any expellled liquid and prevent the bark/crust from getting soggy. If this technique works in the oven or cooler, i see no reason this would not work for SV.

 

Any thoughts?

[rotuts]

at 155 enough 'jus' will come out to saturate the paper, almost no matter the amount you use

 

maybe more importantly the 'jus' will transit through the crust on the way to the 'bag' that that will be that !

 

but excellent non-linear thinking.  

 

I think you would have to SV first, then smoker it for the crust.

 

maybe drop the smoker temp a bit ever to 130 if that works so as not to destroy the meat.

Edited March 23, 2014 by rotuts (log)

[FeChef]

at 155 enough 'jus' will come out to saturate the paper, almost no matter the amount you use

 

maybe more importantly the 'jus' will transit through the crust on the way to the 'bag' that that will be that !

 

but excellent non-linear thinking.  

But in this case we will be bringing the brisket in the smoker to the same temp it will be in the SV, so basicly holding it at that temp. I dont see much liquid loss. Yes liquid has to pass through the bark/crust but if the paper absorbs most of it, the brisket wont be swimming in it. It should definitely help.

 

Probably better off using bounty paper towels instead of butcher paper/brown bag.

Edited March 23, 2014 by FeChef (log)

[rotuts]

On the other hand, In That Bag  ( ITB )  the humidity at temp will be 100 %.

 

since you're keen  and have that smoker  do 1/2 as you suggest, and the other 1/2 SV first.

 

post your results.

 

Il'l nominate you for the eG 'Hall of Fame'

 

many will support this nomination.  at induction, you will be required to bring some "Killer Brisket"

 

N.B. :  "Killer"

[FeChef]

Not only will the paper prevent the brisket from swimming in liquid, it will also prevent the rub from comming off into the liquid. I still dont see how your point you are trying to make is worse then just throwing it in the vacuum bag without the paper. I already been smoking the brisket, so SV first is not an option. If anything, you could convince me to bring the brisket up to 205F in the smoker, but its going to be a long night if i go that route.

[scubadoo97]

May need to finish on the grill to get back some bark

[gfweb]

Hmm Not sure bark/crust will get soggy even if in liquid. It is contracted/maillarded meat which has expelled all its water.

Doubt it can absorb much.

Even if it does it oughta dry out at room temp.

And recall that meat with bark has a very moist inside that doesn't mush up the bark it is coated with.

Edited March 23, 2014 by gfweb (log)

[rotuts]

studies need to be done.