The Ultimate Roast Chicken

[Keith_W]

I thought I would take a straw poll to see what methods you guys consider "best practice" to cook a whole roast chicken. Please choose from the following options and elaborate as you see fit.

- Desired final cooking temperature: breast xxxC, thighs xxxC (or F).

- Stuffing: Yes or No

- Trussing: Yes or No

- Cooking position: breast side up on a rack, or rotisserie, or vertical (beer can), or butterfly

- Cooking time: low temperature and slow, or high temperature and fast

- Heat source: electric oven, combi oven, combined (e.g. sous vide followed by oven), charcoal, or smoker

- Seasoning: none, or dry brine (includes rubs), or wet brine (includes marinades), or injection brine

I think I have more or less covered all the variables. I would be interested to hear your responses.

[FeChef]

Brine overnight.( 12 hours ) Rotisserie at high heat (375F or higher) for 15 min per pound. Average 5-6/lb for 1-1/2 hours. You can also cold smoke before rotisserie for 1-2 hours with apple wood if you have a cold smoker. Its the best way to do smoked chickens .

For seasoning i use Mcormick rotisserie chicken seasoning. I rub the skin with canola mayo before adding the rotisserie chicken seasoning.

Edited March 29, 2013 by FeChef (log)

[Ttogull]

Odd, I made roast chicken tonight. With broccoli potato hash. And I made it much differently than I have before, and I loved it. Skin like glass for the first time.

But first, you forgot the most important factor in making good roast chicken. The chicken. I didn't realize ubtil I started buying chickens from farms and quality butchers. A good chicken smells a lot like...chicken. The crap sold in chain stores doesn't. There is a chapter in Pandora's Lunchbox about flavorless chicken. The upshot is that mass chickens are grown too fast to taste like chicken. The chicken is the biggest difference in the taste of roast chicken.

Also, mass-produced chickens are typically processed. Injected saline, flavors, and maybe preservatives. God only knows what his does to the texture, flavor, etc. of chicken. A chicken cannot naturally hang out in an open meat cooler for weeks, which is true for the chickens often sold by mass producers. And what happens when you brine an already preserved chicken? Again, Pandora's Lunchbox has some discussion, but good butchers will discuss this too.the funny thing is that all the butchers I talk to say that it is impossible to find unprocessed mass produced pork, but everyone is worried about chickens.

Aside from that, I always brine. I never did before, but Heston Blumenthal convinced me.

I usually do beer can style, but honestly I cannot tell a difference if I brine first. Tonight was a first where I trussed the chicken, put it breast side up in a hot skillet, and cooked in the oven at 475F until 155F. What a mess! It was Keller's Bouchon recipe. And it was probably the best I've made. I had never seen chicken skin look like glass until this - it was translucent, and it shattered when I put the probe in. The meat was awesome too,, but that is typical with good chicken and brining.

[weinoo]

Take a look at this post and the rest of the Roasting a Chicken topic for some really great ideas.

As Ttogull's post immediately above mentions, it's all about getting a good chicken to start with. Cause if you're roasting a Perdue bird, it's always gonna taste like crap.

I've been preferring Bell & Evans organic air-chilled birds lately - nice texture to the meat, and good flavor. If I lived in France, I'd be roasting a Bresse chicken twice a week.

[janeer]

Brining is for sissies.

[Ttogull]

Brining is for sissies.

I have a ginger garlic brine for tandoori chicken that will kick your ass!

[gfweb]

Brining is for sissies.

I only brine fowl. Sissies are cooked sous vide.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I vote for rotisserie. I second Bell & Evans.

[patrickamory]

I don't brine.

For those who live in the New York area, go Murray's over Bell & Evans.

I've tried high-heat, low-heat, dry-brine, wet-brine, Marcella Hazan, Zuni, and the full 6-turn 45-degree angle Julia Child Mastering methods.

Over two ranges & zillions of chickens I can unequivocally say that for me, the Marcella Hazan method with rolled, pierced lemons, trussed, first half-hour upside-down self-basting chicken is pretty much miraculous, every time.

My one twist to it is using high-quality paprika (either sweet or half-sharp) mixed into the salt & pepper rub, for color and a tiny bit of umami. Necessary? No. Pretty? Definitely.

Better than Zuni.

[mgaretz]

My lovely wife got me a traeger pellet grill for my birthday (which isn't for two months) so she old make roast chicken on it while I'm gone. (Strikes me that this is like the husband buying the wife a power tool for her birthday.). Anyway we've now made two chicken on it an they were awesome and easy. Crispy skin and very tender and juicy, with a nice, but not overpowering, wood smoke flavor.

Edited March 29, 2013 by mgaretz (log)

[Keith_W]

Thank you. I am keeping tabs on votes as we go along. Just FYI it would be helpful if you could answer every question clearly.

- Desired final cooking temperature: breast xxxC, thighs xxxC (or F).

Keith_W: breast 60C, thighs 65C

- Stuffing: Yes or No

Keith_W: no stuffing

patrickarmory: stuffed with pierced lemon

- Trussing: Yes or No

Keith_W: not trussed

Ttogull: trussed

patrickarmory: trussed

- Cooking position: breast side up on a rack, or rotisserie, or vertical (beer can), or butterfly

Keith_W: rotisserie

FeChef: rotisserie

JoNorvelleWalker: rotisserie

- Cooking time: low temperature and slow, or high temperature and fast

Keith_W: low temperature with high temp finish

FeChef: high temperature

Ttogull: high temperature

- Heat source: electric oven, combi oven, combined (e.g. sous vide followed by oven), charcoal, or smoker

Keith_W: charcoal

FeChef: charcoal or smoker

Ttogull: oven

mgaretz: smoker

- Seasoning: none, or dry brine (includes rubs), or wet brine (includes marinades), or injection brine

Keith_W: injection brine + dry rub

FeChef: wet brine + dry rub

Ttogull: wet brine

patrickarmory: dry rub

As for the chicken, it is a given that you choose the best chicken even before you start ... I mean, this is eGullet. I don't even need to ask.

[Keith_W]

By the way, the reason I am asking is because I prepared a little post (reproduced below) and wanted to gather votes as to what some cooks whom I really respect tend to do with the staple.

--

For many years I have been perfecting my roast chicken recipe. Each time I evolved the recipe and tried something new, it presented new problems. This is a discussion of various aspects of cooking roast chickens along with the pros and cons and expected results. At the end I will present my most recent recipe along with the rationale for doing so.

TL; DR

In summary, my current recommendations are:

- Cooking temperature: breast 60, legs 65.

- Stuffing: no

- Trussing: no

- Cooking position: rotisserie; alternative slow roast with high heat finish

- Brining: injection brining, 4%

Read the discussions below for reasons why. Recipe is at the end.

Cooking temperature: in some other places my recommendation of cooking the breast to 60C and dark meat (thighs/drumstick) to 65C is controversial. However, Heston Blumenthal recommends it (see 3:30 point in this video as do a number of more modern books. Cooking a chicken to higher temperature results in overcooked chicken, which manifests itself as dry meat. Note that the different cooking requirement for breast and leg meat will strongly influence your choice of cooking technique.

Stuffing vs. no stuffing: chickens should not be stuffed. Stuffing a chicken has a number of negative effects: it slows down cooking time by preventing convection currents within the cavity, the stuffing itself needs to reach a minimum of 60C and held for 15 minutes to guarantee safety (during which the vulnerable breast will overcook and skin start to burn), and the stuffing itself takes on a soggy texture. Contrary to myth, stuffing does not make a chicken more moist by "basting it from the inside". The moistness of chicken meat comes from other factors (see below).

Trussed vs. untrussed: after years of trussing my chickens, I have stopped doing so. The reason being - trussing reduces the circulation of air around the thighs, effectively increasing its thickness. Given the thighs need to be cooked to a higher temperature than the breast, trussing only reduces heat conductivity and guarantees either undercooked thighs or overcooked breast. No matter what the cooking method, the legs should be splayed out from the chicken to promote maximum air circulation.

Wet brined smoked beer can chicken. Despite the beautiful glazed appearance of the chicken and the skin, the skin was rubbery. See discussion on brining below

Cooking position: should chickens be stood upright on a beer can, or cooked in a rotisserie, or cooked breast side up, or butterflied? Should they be slow roasted or roasted at a high temperature? If you think about it - your aims in cooking your chicken are: breast to 60, legs to 65, and crispy skin.

- rotisserie: in this case, one side of the chicken is exposed to a high blast of heat before it is rotated away from the heat source. The meat then rapidly cools down before it is exposed to the heat again. Furthermore, the constant rotation of the chicken ensures even distribution of juices. This really is the ultimate way of cooking chicken, but unfortunately not everyone has a rotisserie. Most of the heat in a rotisserie is delivered in the form of radiation, rather than convection.

- breast side up: (Assuming you are using a normal oven with the heating elements on the top and bottom). In this position, the breast meat will be closest to the heating element and most exposed to convection air currents, whilst the thighs (which need a higher cooking temperature!) are resting deep in the roast tin with less air circulation. This will overcook the breast. If you are going to do this, I recommend retarding the cooking of the breast by starting the cooking with the breast down so that the legs cook first on chicken rack set on a biscuit tin (not a roasting tin!) - this promotes maximum air circulation. When you turn the breast side up, check the temperature. If there is less than 5C difference between legs and thighs, place foil over the breast to retard cooking. In a kamado or Weber, the heat comes from the bottom. The chicken should be cooked breast up over indirect heat. Make sure you rotate the chicken 180 halfway during cooking to even out the cooking of both sides.

- beer can: contrary to myth, it is not the beer in the can that keeps the chicken moist. It is the cooking position. In a beer can chicken, the chicken is vertical and the legs are closest to the heat source and breast furthest away. This naturally ensures appropriate distribution of heat.

Butterflied chicken - note the breast is overcooked and slightly charred whilst the legs were moist. The major disadvantage of butterflied chicken is the difficulty monitoring the temperature and stopping the skin from burning. It involves too much guesswork.

- butterfly: butterflying a chicken maximizes the surface area and promotes the fastest cooking. It is rarely possible to achieve a different cooking temperature for breast and thighs with this method unless the breast is foiled. Because of its shape, consideration needs to be given to how to cook it. It is easiest to cook a butterfly chicken in an oven. In a Weber, it is impossible to cook it over indirect heat in a Weber without creative arrangement of coals. Cooking it over direct heat will burn the skin before the meat is cooked. I recommend arranging the coals in a ring around the butterflied chicken in a Weber, with more coals towards the legs. In a Kamado, cook it direct but breast side up over very low heat. When the chicken is 10C from the desired temperature, remove it from the coals and open the vents. Place the chicken breast side down to crisp up the skin over high heat.

- slow vs. quick roast: unlike pork or beef, chicken has very little collagen - so the idea of a slow roast isn't to render the collagen. Rather, the reason you slow roast is to make it easier to control the final cooking temperature. Imagine you are piloting a ship towards a harbour. You need to stop right at the jetty. You could either go full steam ahead and try to apply reverse thrust just before you reach the jetty, but chances are you will overshoot and crash. Or, you could steam up slowly and coast to the jetty. This is the same with chicken - a slow roast gives you a larger window of opportunity to remove it from the heat at the desired cooking temperature. How important this is depends on how good you are at monitoring your chicken! If you have a Maverick ET-732 (or similar) type temperature probe, you can react the moment the alarm informs you the temp has been reached.

My peri-peri chicken, made with a brine-like marinade then cooked indirect until almost cooked, then finished over direct heat

Brining and marinades: chickens should always be brined. The reason: the salt within the meat promotes structural changes within the proteins which make the meat more tender. If you want to get scientific about it: the proteins maintain their 3D structure via a number of different types of bonds, but the most important is the positive-negative attraction between different amino acids. Na+ alters the charge of the proteins, promoting its unfolding. Also, the salt helps the meat hold on to water, causing less moisture loss. If you look up brining recipes, you will find a multitude of them - dry brines, wet brines at different concentrations, and injection brining. Which is the best? Well fortunately for you, I have done experiments!

- dry brining: not recommended. This method draws moisture out of the chicken and results in a taste and texture resembling cured meat.

- marinades: a form of wet brining but using far more concentrated flavours with less precise control over salinity. I have yet to come across a marinade recipe (including my own) which isn't subjective and variable. The results can be delicious, but really I didn't intend this post to be a discussion on marinading.

- wet brining: the most popular brining method. If you look up a number of books, you will see that some people (like Heston) recommends an 8% brine for 8 hours. Thomas Keller recommends a 5% brine for 12 hours. (NB: an 8% brine is 8g of salt per 100g water). I did an experiment where I brined three chicken breasts in different concentrations and found that the lowest concentration (a 4% brine for 12 hours) resulted in the most moist, succulent chicken - but unlike the other brines, a low concentration brine is not enough to season the chicken - so you have to add more seasoning afterwards.

Wet brining was my go-to method for the past year, but it has a major drawback. The same effect that causes moisture to hang on to the meat also causes moisture to hang on to the skin. I cooked beautifully moist chicken with rubbery skin for two years, trying all sorts of methods to crisp up the skin before I realized what was happening and junked the technique. My current recommendation is:

- injection brining: in this technique a 4% brine solution is injected into the meat and allowed to equilibrate for 2 hours before cooking. You inject 10% of the weight of the chicken in brine - for a 2kg chicken you need to prepare 200mL of 4% brine. At the moment I am still experimenting with the optimum brine volume and concentrate. The major advantage, apart from crispy skin, is speed (2 hours vs. 12 hours) and cost. If you want a lemon or bay leaf flavour in your brine, you need to add much less to make only 200mL of brine as opposed to 4L of brine you need for wet brining!

Recipe

- 2kg chicken

- 300mL water

- 8gm salt

- 2 cloves of garlic

- 1/2 lemon

- 2 bay leaves

- 1 tbsp black peppercorn

First make the brine solution by bringing 300mL of water to the boil. Add the garlic, lemon juice, bay leaves, and peppercorn. Turn to a slow simmer for 10 minutes, and allow to cool completely. Strain the mixture and measure out 200mL of solution. Dissolve 8gm of salt into this solution. Load it into a brining syringe and inject into the breast and legs. Try to avoid piercing the skin. Rub the skin all over with a small amount of salt (or a rub of your choice) and place in the fridge for at least 2 hours. Note - if you are using a very salty rub, reduce the concentration of salt in the brine, say 3% or so.

Remove the chicken from the fridge and allow to cool to room temperature. Place a bag of ice (ice cubes in a zip-lock bag) over the breast to keep it cooler than the legs. Fire up your rotisserie in the meantime. Rub the chicken all over with oil, mount your chicken in the rotisserie and cook to desired temperature. For other cooking methods, see discussion above.

[rotuts]

on a can. on a Webber or egg. Not over a 'hot' burner: avoid flair-ups. light brine. dry rub. try Penzey's Chicago Seasoning, or Penzy's granulated garlic and Spanish smoked paprika. buy the best chicken you can afford for 'chicken' flavor. Supermarket chicken need lots of glaze then its OK at best.

350 on the webber/egg. 1 hr 30 min or less. avoid a chicken that weights more than 4 lbs for this. get a little smoke going with some hard wood next to the hot 'flavor bar'

no basting needed. can finish with a glaze if you like. tiny slits on the 'top fat' at the top of the chicken as it sits on the can to allow to drain away.

try Mae Ploy Sweet Chili sauce for the glaze. heat in a small pan on top of the webber lid as the chicken cooks.

Edited March 29, 2013 by rotuts (log)

[weinoo]

I don't brine.

For those who live in the New York area, go Murray's over Bell & Evans.

I've tried high-heat, low-heat, dry-brine, wet-brine, Marcella Hazan, Zuni, and the full 6-turn 45-degree angle Julia Child Mastering methods.

Over two ranges & zillions of chickens I can unequivocally say that for me, the Marcella Hazan method with rolled, pierced lemons, trussed, first half-hour upside-down self-basting chicken is pretty much miraculous, every time.

My one twist to it is using high-quality paprika (either sweet or half-sharp) mixed into the salt & pepper rub, for color and a tiny bit of umami. Necessary? No. Pretty? Definitely.

Better than Zuni.

Patrick - I saw your post in the thread I linked to above. I'll have to give it a try.

But I really have found Bell & Evans (at least the air-chilled, organic) to be better than Murray's? Have you tried it? I used to only buy kosher birds, or Bobo birds, but even they pale in comparison.

I roast chicken differently almost every time I roast one. One time, it'll be Julia's method. Another, Thomas Keller's. Another - vertical roaster. Another on it's breast. Sometimes on a rack, sometimes on a bed of potatoes. If I had a rotisserie, I'd use that.

A lot depends on the size of the bird. If you're starting with a 2.5# chicken, it's going to roast differently than a 3.7# bird. Cooking it outside - different than inside. Convection oven or no. There are a lot of variables to consider; I don't find it as simple as answering a survey.

[weinoo]

Recipe

- 2kg chicken

- 300mL water

- 8gm salt

- 2 cloves of garlic

- 1/2 lemon

- 2 bay leaves

- 1 tbsp black peppercorn

The whole idea of a roast chicken (for many people) is that it's supposed to be a fairly simple dish. Many want to take a chicken, maybe rub it with some butter or olive oil (or even better, in my book, duck fat), sprinkle on some salt and pepper, stick it in the oven for an hour and have a nice roast chicken. This recipe, of course, suggests that people want to spend hours and hours on that process. Or that they have rotisseries, and gram scales, and injectors - whatever.

But - you still haven't told us what the really great secret to roast chicken is - and that's what kind of bird you're roasting. So please - let us in on that.

[nickrey]

You missed the option of inserting some fat between the breast and the skin. This is often recommended as one way of keeping this part of the bird moist while you get the dark meat up to temperature.

[weinoo]

You missed the option of inserting some fat between the breast and the skin. This is often recommended as one way of keeping this part of the bird moist while you get the dark meat up to temperature.

Nick - I often do this when I roast a whole bird. Either butter or duck fat - along with a sprig or two of thyme. If I'm feeling really industrious, I'll sliver up a clove or two of garlic and add that under the skin as well - it practically melts into the bird.

[mgaretz]

Since Keith is keeping tabs, I should expand on the Traeger. Even though it can be used as a smoker, this recipe cooks the chicken on its high setting - about 450F. The chicken gets a light coating of olive oil, a light dusting of rub (so far we've used the free Traeger chicken rub that came with the grill - next I'll be trying my own rub and also Meathead's Memphis Dust) and is placed breast side up on a stainless BBQ tray (lots of holes in it). The chicken is not stuffed or trussed. Only prep is to remove the giblets, trim away obvious excess fat (usually near the tail) and rinse well inside and out. Cook time is 1 hour and 10 minutes with no turning or fussing.

[sigma]

Recipe

- 2kg chicken

- 300mL water

- 8gm salt

- 2 cloves of garlic

- 1/2 lemon

- 2 bay leaves

- 1 tbsp black peppercorn

But - you still haven't told us what the really great secret to roast chicken is - and that's what kind of bird you're roasting. So please - let us in on that.

This is true, but I am not sure it means what you think it does, at least if you are using it in conjunction with your recommended brand. While the way a chicken is raised, pasture, free range, in a little pen, has something to do with it, and the feed also has something to do with it, they give rather marginal improvements over supermarket chicken. Processing can also vary, and can add a bit better flavor and much better texture. Still, what is more important, and virtually overlooked, is the breeding stock. We don't overlook it w/r/t other animals, but with chickens the vast majority of expensive, hipster, pastured chickens are still Cornish Cross, which means fat breasts, skinny legs and not a lot of flavor. You can see that in the pictures in this thread, and in almost every other picture you see of an egullet chicken. What you want to look for is Freedom Ranger stock, which is what the Label Rouge producers in France use. It gives a very different chicken. They grow much more slowly, so they are mature at slaughter and developed in taste. The breasts are skinny, the French woman as compared to the busty American archetype. So yeah, chicken matters, but you have to choose the differences that matter for flavor.

[rotuts]

mgaretz

very interested in how your adventures with the Traeger go. Ive had my eye on them for a while, but went in a different direction as there was no place to see them first, and no local place for the pellets.

but the idea of a feedback loop for the pellet feed esp. on low and slow ie Ribs etc makes its appeal!

[mgaretz]

mgaretz

very interested in how your adventures with the Traeger go. Ive had my eye on them for a while, but went in a different direction as there was no place to see them first, and no local place for the pellets.

but the idea of a feedback loop for the pellet feed esp. on low and slow ie Ribs etc makes its appeal!

Doing ribs today actually. That will be low and slow - 225F for about 6 hours.

[Mjx]

Desired final cooking temperature: No idea, still waiting for my sister to send my Thermapen along, and the available pointy metal thing that is allegedly a thermometer is possessed by sulking demons.

Stuffing: Hell no.

Trussing: Nope. I've tried both trussed and untrussed and the results are more even with the bird untrussed.

Cooking position: You generally need to turn the bird, although butterflying simplifies that.

Cooking time: First, medium temperature on each side (190 C, 15 min), finish on back at high temperature (230 C, 23 min)

Heat source: Convection oven (we have a rotisserie option, which my boyfriend adores and does no harm, but in a closed oven, especially a convection oven, it makes no sense; however, I see no reason to rain on my boyfriend's parade, so the rotisserie is broken out now and again, but it makes no difference whatever to the final result)

Seasoning: Brine or dry brine, depending on time (regardless of how butch or sissified the bird appears to have been). No other seasoning.


ETA, I should've mentioned that the recipe I use is from The Best Recipe. The results have been uniformly good to incredible (depending on how good the bird was, to begin with), with moist, perfectly done meat throughout, and crunchy-crispy skin.

. . . .

As for the chicken, it is a given that you choose the best chicken even before you start ... I mean, this is eGullet. I don't even need to ask.

Yeah, RIGHT Sometimes, the best available chicken is essentially rubbish, BUT if you have a wicked roast chicken craving, you do what you can with whatever you can get your hands on. Brining can even turn a Perdue crud-ball into a quite tasty chicken.

[huiray]

Recipe

- 2kg chicken

- 300mL water

- 8gm salt

- 2 cloves of garlic

- 1/2 lemon

- 2 bay leaves

- 1 tbsp black peppercorn

But - you still haven't told us what the really great secret to roast chicken is - and that's what kind of bird you're roasting. So please - let us in on that.

This is true, but I am not sure it means what you think it does, at least if you are using it in conjunction with your recommended brand. While the way a chicken is raised, pasture, free range, in a little pen, has something to do with it, and the feed also has something to do with it, they give rather marginal improvements over supermarket chicken. Processing can also vary, and can add a bit better flavor and much better texture. Still, what is more important, and virtually overlooked, is the breeding stock. We don't overlook it w/r/t other animals, but with chickens the vast majority of expensive, hipster, pastured chickens are still Cornish Cross, which means fat breasts, skinny legs and not a lot of flavor. You can see that in the pictures in this thread, and in almost every other picture you see of an egullet chicken. What you want to look for is Freedom Ranger stock, which is what the Label Rouge producers in France use. It gives a very different chicken. They grow much more slowly, so they are mature at slaughter and developed in taste. The breasts are skinny, the French woman as compared to the busty American archetype. So yeah, chicken matters, but you have to choose the differences that matter for flavor.

In SE Asia (e.g. Malaysia, but not so much Singapore) the common chicken used for, e.g., "Hainanese Chicken Rice" and also commonly available in the markets is what is called "Ayam Kampong" (or Ayam Kampung) (in Malaysia), meaning "Village Chicken". They're yellow-skinned chickens with a great flavor and firm flesh. The chickens commonly available in Singapore, OTOH, tend to lean more towards the "Bresse-type" or something-like-that and are paler and more mushy in texture, more like many Western breeds - which, apparently, Singaporeans prefer in a general sense.

Keith_W, you ought to know exactly what I am talking about.

Edited March 29, 2013 by huiray (log)

[ChrisZ]

Love this thread! Awesome work Keith. Just a few thoughts-

- Regarding beer can chicken, I've tried it a few times and I always drink the beer first and use an empty can. So I was interested when you wrote "contrary to myth, it is not the beer in the can that keeps the chicken moist." Am I doing it wrong?

- Is butterflying the same as spatchcocking, or is there some subtle difference?

- There's a Jamie Oliver technique of boiling a lemon and then putting it in the cavity of the chicken with some herbs before roasting. The hot lemon speeds up the cooking process as well as contributing flavour. I've used this technique a number of times and am always amazed at how well the lemon flavour permeates the chicken. It works especially well with thyme / lemon thyme. It's simple technique with a very dramatic result on the flavour of the end result.

[ChrisTaylor]

- Stuffing: No. At least not in the cavity. At times I've put things (i.e. flavoured butter) under the skin but not recently.

- Trussing: No.

- Cooking position: Breast side up on a tray.

- Cooking time: High and fast.

- Heat source: Electric. Yet to get around to trying a combo of smoker and electric.

- Seasoning: Zuni has sold me on dry brining. No other seasoning. Well, I might add pepper sometimes but never anything like paprika, cayenne or etc.