Cheese (2008– )

[sigma]

sigma,

I did not have this experience at Cowgirl Creamery or Boccalone.

Do you have a favorite cheese shop in SF?

sigma,

I did not have this experience at Cowgirl Creamery or Boccalone.

Do you have a favorite cheese shop in SF?

I really like Gourmet and More. Terrible name, but great shop. They know their cheeses and they are always aged very nicely and ready to go. The shop is up near French American School. Lots of interesting things in there. Nice people. You can bring a bottle of wine and sit out on the patio and eat cheese on weekends.

Sigma

If you look at all of the pictures you will see that the selection is very extensive. Certainly as good, if not better than any stand at Montauban market or the covered market in Cahors.

In my experience the cheese vendors at French market tend to have a smaller selection of cheeses, but with some specialisation and excellent quality. An issue is the almost total lack of foreign cheeses.

I'm not complaining as I love my French cheeses as can be told by my numerous posts on this thread.

Not having been there I can't comment on the attitude/ quality of their staff nor can I comment on the other stands.

The largest 'fromageries' in our area of France tend to be those in the HyperMarkets. Good selection, but almost all French Can you give me the name of a good shop in say Cahors?.

The selection is actually surprisingly non-extensive. What I mean by that is that while they have a lot of different cheeses, they really have a lot of the same cheese by many different producers. The diversity is in makers, not in flavors. And they generally aren't in great shape. Their own Cowgirl cheeses are woefully underaged and the cheeses they bring in from other makers are pretty ragged a lot fo the time.

I don't know Cahors well, but I can heartily recommend the cheese shop in the covered market in Perigueux. It is run by a young woman who is quite out of place there. She looks more San Franciscan in dark makeup and piercings, but she is very sweet and knowledgeable about cheese and does have a good selection of cheeses from other parts of Europe. There is another really good cheese shop on the walk into the central market, but I forget the name and it is typically French.

Personally, and I know this is probably a very conservative, old line thought, I am pretty happy to take my chances with French cheese and mix in other old world cheeses when appropriate. I don't find much American cheese to be that good. Of course some is OK, but it tends to be overt and slutty to me, much like our wine, and that is a bit unappealing. I don't blame the cheesemakers. I blame the first generation eaters who consume most of the artisanal cheese around here. They don't have a lot of taste for nuance.

[Katie Meadow]

I live in the East Bay and don't get over to the city often, so I wouldn't have a clue about recommendation for places to buy cheese there. I do have occasion to go through Pt Reyes, the original home of Cowgirl Creamery and of course can buy their cheeses at other places. I do have a personal opinion about them, but have not been there for several years and have never been to their Ferry Bldg outlet. I am not a huge fan of their own cheeses. Also I think the prices are very high. And, at least at the Pt Reyes shop, they are not terribly helpful or generous in my experience. It feels like it's set up take advantage of tourists.

As for supermarket cheese depts they seem woefully inadequate. If I know exactly what I want sometimes Whole Foods has it, but their selection is small and the people behind the counter are not very knowledgeable. The Fairway cheese dept in NY seems one of the better "supermarket" cheese sources, if you call Fairway a supermarket. In the East Bay I usually shop at The Pasta Shop for cheese if I am looking for something new, want to taste a variety of things and want to talk to someone who knows something. Also the Cheese Board in Berkeley has a big selection, good prices and some interesting cheeses and the people behind the counter will happily talk with you and give you many tastes.

Janet Fletcher has a weekly cheese column in the SF Chron. Since she appears to love every cheese she reviews, I assume she has no interest in commenting on ones that are lacking. She does provide info on where to find the cheeses she profiles in the Bay Area. I checked her website and unfortunately she doesn't have a list of good cheese stores on the site. But I would suggest contacting her and seeing if she would give you a list of her faves. On her website she encourages readers to email her, so it might be a way to come up with destinations.

Hi Dave! Yes, nothing quite compares to some of the great cheeses I tasted at village markets in the south of France. Often small producers and very specialized, but really amazing.

[sigma]

Yeah, Cheese Board is phenomenal. Probably the best cheese selection I've ever seen. Often in pretty good shape, too.

[djyee100]

Dave Hatfield, on 21 Jun 2013 - 08:24, said:

...why is it that every time we visit the states the supermarkets don't seem to have any cheese worth buying? CostCo seems to have a bit of decent cheese, but nowhere else.

Why? Or am I missing something?

I believe the artisanal cheese producers in the U.S. are small batch producers, and their cheeses are expensive for the average shopper. These cheeses show up at restaurants or high-end markets, particularly specialty cheese shops. If a supermarket tries to sell high-end cheeses--Whole Foods and Berkeley Bowl come to mind--the cheeses usually don't move fast enough. In particular, the soft cheeses suffer in their condition.

Cheese purveyers of note in SF are Cowgirl Creamery, Cheese Plus, and Rainbow Grocery. In SF, I usually shop for cheese at Cowgirl Creamery, because the location is so convenient. I've never been to Cheese Plus, and I haven't shopped at Rainbow Grocery in ages. However, the Cheese School of SF buys some of its cheeses at Rainbow, and judging by that sample, their cheeses are good.

In the East Bay, where I live now, I usually shop at Pasta Shop, again because of the convenient location. I do love the Cheese Board, and it's across the street from Chez Panisse, but that is one parking-challenged neighborhood. I have to feel purposeful to go there.

People who want to explore artisanal cheesemakers in Sonoma and Marin Counties can download this trail map. Some of the cheesemakers allow visitors or host events occasionally. Here:

http://cheesetrail.org/

ETA: Rotuts, I'm a big fan of Vermont camembert. We can get some of the artisanal Vermont cheeses here, and they are good!

Edited June 21, 2013 by djyee100 (log)

[Dave Hatfield]

I'm very pleased to learn that the Cheese Board in Berkeley is still going.

I used to go there most Saturday's when I lived in Emeryville during the 80's. Pig by the Tail was just down the street as was the Monterey market. With Chez Panisse just across the street I was in foodie heaven.

Ah! The good old days.

[Plantes Vertes]

I have a question.

As I read these posts by djyee, Frog Princes & rotuts I am impressed by the variety of cheeses made across the USA. It looks as if there is both a lot of variety as well as quality.

Given that, why is it that every time we visit the states the supermarkets don't seem to have any cheese worth buying? CostCo seems to have a bit of decent cheese, but nowhere else.

Why? Or am I missing something?

I think it could be because supermarkets prefer to deal with very large producers to achieve purchasing efficiency, and it isn't possible to make specialist cheese on that scale. Here in the UK producers that deal with the supermarkets receive very narrow margins and rely on volume sales; the supermarket will not stock premium goods that will have a high price and limited connoisseur market.

Supermarket cheese also has to withstand long transport times and be able to survive a large amount of handling and storage in suboptimal conditions, as well as being packaged to minimise spoilage. Again in the UK, many supermarket goods are produced within miles of the store but driven hundreds of miles to central distribution depots, only to be driven all the way back again for sale. Artisan cheeses will not be in good condition after this treatment, so there will be a large percentage of waste - the supermarket won't accept this.

Indeed, the supermarkets' demand for consistency is probably another reason. A lot of food like bent cucumbers and knobbly potatoes is wasted or diverted to secondary uses like animal feed in this country because customers prefer a standardised product. Unless your cheese is made in a big factory it won't have that degree of consistency; it will vary according to the conditions and the ingredients.

[Dave Hatfield]

Thanks for the answers to my question about the lack of decent cheese in US supermarkets. They make commercial sense I suppose, but its a shame that there aren't better outlets for the quality producers.

This leads me to ask; where does one buy decent cheese in the US outside the cities large enough to support specialist cheese shops?

[rotuts]

they are around, but then

cities large enough to support specialist cheese shops

sets some limits. In Brattleboro VT, a very small city there is this:

http://www.brattleborofoodcoop.com/

its a COOP from the 50's the have stunning cheese. indeed about 10 - 15 years ago the NYTimes ran a full page on high end american made cheese and used the guy that runs this cheese section for the copy.

but its a COOP, you know ....

[JTravel]

Rochester NY now has an independent cheese shop....the Little Bleu Cheese Shop. It's in a city neighborhood that is on the upswing...with restaurants, little retail shops, and a handmade chocolate/ice cream shop. The cheese shop is marketing very actively, holding tastings with wine or beer and taking part in lots of events. Prices are per quarter pound and I find them too rich for my budget aside from an occasional treat. But wish them, and South Wedge good luck....it has become a fun area to visit.

http://littlebleucheese.com

[djyee100]

Thanks for the answers to my question about the lack of decent cheese in US supermarkets. They make commercial sense I suppose, but its a shame that there aren't better outlets for the quality producers.

This leads me to ask; where does one buy decent cheese in the US outside the cities large enough to support specialist cheese shops?

From what I know of the artisanal cheese producers in Sonoma and Marin, they sell what they produce, and do well financially. However, I'm sure their profit margin--due to their hands-on, time-intensive methods--do not compare to a large-scale mass producer of cheese. I went googling when I was thinking about your question, and unearthed this review of a study about artisanal cheese producers.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2012/the-subculture-of-cheese-1212.html?tmpl=component

It sounds like the cheesemakers' work and way of life take priority over economic goals, though none of them would turn down a chance to make more money. Depending on what that offer was.

Which brings up the next question: how much demand is there for fine cheese in the U.S.? The demand is growing, but normal American meals do not include a cheese course. JTravel points out, and I agree, that fine cheese in the U.S. is a luxury, dependent on discretionary income. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most Americans can think of something to do with their discretionary income besides buy great cheese. The non-foodies I know want to upgrade their home entertainment systems.

I'm guessing that people outside the cities who want great cheese must mail-order it. Even if there were more outlets for fine cheese, would it sell? Then, of course, there's the issue of supply--the relatively small supply of artisanal cheeses reflects the cheesemaker's choice of the right way to make cheese, and why.

BTW, I was so fascinated by the book review about artisanal cheesemakers, I've requested the book through my public library.

[Dave Hatfield]

I am blessed with wonderful friends two of whom just returned from Corsica bearing cheese for me.

Both are sheep's milk, unpasteurized from the Antoine Ottavi fromagerie. I did a bit of research on Google as I'm not familiar with either of these cheeses.

Turns out that Antoine Ottavi who started this fromagerie in the 1950's is quite a character. There's even an article about him in the NY Times.

The cheeses are:

- Antoine Ottavi. This is their signature cheese. Its a soft creamy tomme like cheese with some distinct flavors from the sea.

- Fleur du Maquis. Again, a sheep's milk unpasteurized cheese. In this case its covered with crushed rosemary, fennel and juniper berries. These over time soak into the cheese giving it a unique flavor.

Lucky me!

[heidih]

Oh Dave - you reminded me to kick myself in the rear once again for being a fool as a teen. Spent the summer in Corsica and never even tried the astounding cheeses that my friends were snarfing down with relish- wrapped in leaves, covered in herbs, smelling of the maquis.... I did eat the Brocciu every morning that the local guy sold door to door. At least I did not snub the fantastic charcuterie

[FrogPrincesse]

Brocciu is the Corsican version of brousse which is a fresh cheese similar to ricotta. It makes a great tartine with a little bit of freshly cracked pepper.

I love Fleur du Maquis. It has the aroma of the shrubs/herbs that grow everywhere in Corsica.

We need photos, Dave!

[heidih]

Brocciu is the Corsican version of brousse which is a fresh cheese similar to ricotta. It makes a great tartine with a little bit of freshly cracked pepper.

This was super fresh and soft. It smelled like sweet milk with a whiff of herbs (at least how I imagined unpasteuried fresh from the cow or sheep who grazed in the maquis would smell)- we had it for breakfast sprinkled with just a bit of "raw" sugar along with excellent bread

[sigma]

Gourmet and More stocks fleur de maquis.

[FrogPrincesse]

This was super fresh and soft. It smelled like sweet milk with a whiff of herbs (at least how I imagined unpasteuried fresh from the cow or sheep who grazed in the maquis would smell)- we had it for breakfast sprinkled with just a bit of "raw" sugar along with excellent bread

(Brocciu is always sheep or goat).

This brings back memories of several summers spent in Corsica eating plenty of local cheeses (including a few that are extremely pungent), charcuterie (best coppa I ever had), oysters and sea urchins right from the sea.

[FrogPrincesse]

A recent cheese platter. From 9 o'clock: Comte, Roquefort, P'tit Basque (cow, sheep, sheep). This is what I serve for my slightly less adventurous friends since these are a little less stinky than some other cheeses I like (the cheese, not the friends...).

Edited August 27, 2013 by FrogPrincesse (log)

[djyee100]

Today I met a friend at an event in Berkeley, and afterwards I offered to drive her home. (She can't drive these days due to a disability.) She lives two streets away from the Gourmet Ghetto. As I was driving her home, I got the bright idea of shopping for cheese at the Cheese Board. True to form, it turned out to be a pricey if delightful experience, especially since I impulsively dropped in for lunch at Chez Panisse on the way to the Cheese Board.

(Note to self: If you care about your monthly budget, keep driving through the Gourmet Ghetto. Do not get out of your car. )

I tasted a bunch of cheeses at the Cheese Board, and came home with these:



An exceptional Camembert-type cheese named Harbison, from Jasper Hill in Vermont. I tasted a couple Brie's and another Camembert while I was at the store, and this one beat 'em all.



A cheddar that is new to the Cheese Board, named Barber's cheddar, from Somerset, England. It has an unusual acidic zing from the starter in the cheese. No rind, but plenty of mold on the sides.



A new local blue cheese that has got me excited, called Bay Blue. It's made by the same people who do Pt Reyes Blue cheese. Bay Blue is creamier with rounder flavor compared to Pt Reyes Blue. Also on the platter, a slice of Beaufort, a French Gruyere-type cheese that is one of my all-time faves. I almost swooned when I tasted it at the store. Had to bring some of that home.

Also in the pic, a seeded sourdough baguette from the Cheese Board, and some late season tomatoes from the farmer's market. When I feel hungry again (it hasn't happened yet), bread, cheese and tomato salad are on the menu.

FrogPrincesse, I noticed that you had a question about Andante cheeses upthread. Historically, those cheeses have been made in very small quantities and sold to the elite restaurants in the Bay Area. These cheeses are not widely available at most cheese retailers, and they are expensive. Andante is known for its young goat and cow's milk cheeses.

Some months ago, I tasted one Andante cheese, Tomme Dolce, at a class given by Janet Fletcher at the Cheese School of SF. This cheese was a goat's milk cheese that had been ripened for 3+ months--not typical for this cheesemaker, since most of her cheeses are younger. The cheese didn't do much for me, and if you believe how the class voted at the end of the tasting, not much for many others, either. Although every cheese got at least a few votes, the class fave was Cameo, a goat's milk cheese from Redwood Hill Farm in Sebastopol, California. This is a bloom-y rind, Camembert-like cheese with lemon verbena and peppercorns on top. Lots of enthusiasm for that one.

The Cheese School bought Tomme Dolce at Rainbow Grocery in SF, and Cameo from Cowgirl Creamery in the SF Ferry Bldg.

[Dave Hatfield]

Nice post! Nice cheeses!

I was very happy to learn that the Cheese Board is still alive & well.

Your post brings back memories of the early 80's when I lived in Emeryville & my Saturday routine was Chez Pannise, the Cheese Board, Monterey Market and Pig By the Tail. Sadly, Pig By the Tail is long gone, but I wonder? Is Monterey Market still there?

Thanks for bring back some fond memories.

[Katie Meadow]

Hi Dave,

Monterey Market is still there. I too miss Pig by the Tail. And it still gets my vote for best named charcuterie, although the Fifth Quarter, an operation that puts up a tent at the Berkeley Farmers Market is a pretty good name too. Fatted Calf used to be at the Berkeley Farmers Market and I liked their products, but now they are only in SF. They used to make a fantastic rabbit pate, but I think they don't do that one any more, due to rabbit sources hopping away or whatever. Americans don't seem to like rabbit that much.

[Dave Hatfield]

Katie

Thanks for the update. I'm glad that much survived.

I was fortunate enough to buy a copy of 'American Charcuterie' shortly after they closed the shop. I still use it and still think its one of the best books of its kind.

[FrogPrincesse]

FrogPrincesse, I noticed that you had a question about Andante cheeses upthread. Historically, those cheeses have been made in very small quantities and sold to the elite restaurants in the Bay Area. These cheeses are not widely available at most cheese retailers, and they are expensive. Andante is known for its young goat and cow's milk cheeses.

Some months ago, I tasted one Andante cheese, Tomme Dolce, at a class given by Janet Fletcher at the Cheese School of SF. This cheese was a goat's milk cheese that had been ripened for 3+ months--not typical for this cheesemaker, since most of her cheeses are younger. The cheese didn't do much for me, and if you believe how the class voted at the end of the tasting, not much for many others, either. Although every cheese got at least a few votes, the class fave was Cameo, a goat's milk cheese from Redwood Hill Farm in Sebastopol, California. This is a bloom-y rind, Camembert-like cheese with lemon verbena and peppercorns on top. Lots of enthusiasm for that one.

The Cheese School bought Tomme Dolce at Rainbow Grocery in SF, and Cameo from Cowgirl Creamery in the SF Ferry Bldg.

djyee100 - thanks for sharing your impressions on Andante cheese. I really got interested in Andante after reading a nice article in the Art of Eating about Soyoung Scanlan and her goat cheeses. I had a chance to try several of her cheeses since then. I am going through my notes... Here is a recent one on this little cheese plate. Starting from the bottom left: Musette from Andante, Cantal, Sainte-Maure. All three were fantastic. The Saint-Maure is a goat cheese from Touraine with straw in the middle. It's hard to find here but my dad brought it with him when he came to visit us this summer. The Cantal (cow milk) had a beautiful fruit flavor. Musette was the hardest of the three. It is a raw sheep milk cheese with rind that is rubbed with molasses. Very flavorful as well. This little assortment was just great.

Here is Andante's Etude. This was is a seasonal semi-hard goat cheese. Lighter in flavor, grass and cream. Very good too.

The third one was a complete miss for me. I went to the market at the Ferry Building in San Francisco and Andante had a little stand. I was really excited. I asked for the goat cheese with the most flavor, because I am not into mild young cheeses. They recommended the crottin and I was really eager to try it because crottin de Chavignol is one of my favorites. It was not in the same league at all. It had a thick rind that was bitter and the cheese did not have the wonderful tanginess of the crottin. Nothing like the photo or description on their website. It was not very pleasant unfortunately. Oh well...

Here is Andante's cheese stand.

[djyee100]

FrogPrincesse, thanks for the report on the Andante cheeses. I haven't been to the Saturday farmers market at the SF ferry bldg in months. Unless I really want something, I avoid it because of the crowds. When I am there I hit my favorite spots, like Acme and Cowgirl Creamery, and then I escape. Will have to search out the Andante stand the next time I am there.

I have to admit the elitist style of Andante has put me off in the past. The production is so small, and the cheeses are hard to find. That means most people cannot buy the cheeses regularly and judge them over time, as you can do with other cheeses. Are the cheeses more available than they used to be? You wondered if the cheeses are "hyped." I've wondered the same thing.

Edited September 16, 2013 by djyee100 (log)

[FrogPrincesse]

FrogPrincesse, thanks for the report on the Andante cheeses. I haven't been to the Saturday farmers market at the SF ferry bldg in months. Unless I really want something, I avoid it because of the crowds. When I am there I hit my favorite spots, like Acme and Cowgirl Creamery, and then I escape. Will have to search out the Andante stand the next time I am there.

I have to admit the elitist style of Andante has put me off in the past. The production is so small, and the cheeses are hard to find. That means most people cannot buy the cheeses regularly and judge them over time, as you can do with other cheeses. Are the cheeses more available than they used to be? You wondered if the cheeses are "hyped." I've wondered the same thing.

Overhyped maybe. The thing is, if the same cheeses were sold in France, I don't think that they would get much press. In the US there aren't that many artisanal cheese makers I guess, and the types of cheeses she makes seem fairly rare, so it's a big deal to some people.

I am happy to find a high quality product regardless of the hype. It's clear that she puts a lot of care into her products. Her cheeses are still hard to find but my local cheese shop has them occasionally and I make sure to buy them when I see them.

Based on my small sampling, so far I prefer Andante to Cowgirl Creamery. From Cowgirl I tried Mt. Tam, Red Hawk, St Pat, Devil's Gulch, and Wagon Wheel, and don't feel compelled to buy them again. Usually they are sold quite young with sub-optimal affinage (even at their store in the Ferry Building), which is the shame because it's an essential part of the process.

[djyee100]

The thing is, if the same cheeses were sold in France, I don't think that they would get much press. In the US there aren't that many artisanal cheese makers I guess, and the types of cheeses she makes seem fairly rare, so it's a big deal to some people.

This makes sense to me.

Others have made similar comments about the Cowgirl Creamery cheeses. Once in a while, I still like a bit of Red Hawk. Mt Tam is rich but too bland for me, and Wagon Wheel simply doesn't impress. I haven't tried the Devil's Gulch. The Cowgirl Creamery shop in the SF Ferry Bldg is great for its selection of other cheeses, though.

Food writer Janet Fletcher has a list of cheeses on her website, some of her faves. The list is worth looking at. The Pt Reyes Toma was featured in that cheese class I mentioned upthread, and one of the cheeses I liked the most. The list is here: http://www.janetfletcher.com/cheeselibrary.html