HOW DETAILED SHOULD A RECIPE BE?

[Anna N]

http://slate.msn.com/id/2075465/

"I know it is troublesome to write boring instructions about greasing pans or seasoning fish, but recipes are read very literally. Television isn't supposed to convey every last detail, and Lawson shines there. But recipes should be written for novices. Winkling and fizzling are not substitutes for a reminder to grease the pan." Sara Dickerman

This quote by Sara Dickerman is taken from the link above which disses Nigella Lawson's printed recipes. (Hope I'm not violating copyright rules on egullet!).)

So, I would like your input on the question of how detailed should a recipe be?

For instance, I would like to see the following included:

Information on whether the dish can be frozen successfully.

If not frozen, how long can it be kept and under what conditions.

Can it be prepared ahead of serving time and if so, how far ahead.

If special equipment (e.g. icecream maker) is needed, I'd like to see it shown very prominently at the beginning of the recipe.

I'd like something other then "golden brown" used to describe colour as this seems to have little real meaning.

Am I asking too much? What else should be included in a recipe that will make it more likely to succeed in the hands of an inexperienced cook?

Comments?

Thanks.

[Suzanne F]

Oh, boy. I could write a whole article on that. Maybe I will, for The Daily Gullet, if Fat Guy agrees. This topic is very, very dear to my heart, because I believe that badly written recipes turn more people off of cooking than almost anything else. By "badly written" I mean inappropriate to the skill of the users, as well as just plain sloppy.

For now, though: a recipe should be written at the skill level of the cooks it's for; that is, for total beginners, it should explain EVERYTHING, including the cooking equipment needed, the way the oil should look in the sauté pan before adding the piece of veal (as an example) -- leave NOTHING to chance due to the cook's lack of experience. If the recipe is for people with some greater level of knowledge, experience, and skill, then not everything has to be specified. But still, the writing has to be appropriate and complete: no ingredients listed without telling what to do with them, nor instructions for dealing with ingredients not listed.

Thanks, Anna: want to work with me on TDG piece?

edited to reflect member name change

Edited December 25, 2002 by Suzanne F (log)

[Anna N]

Thanks, NLL: want to work with me on TDG piece?

Couldn't think of anything I'd like better! Lovely, lovely, Christmas present. I'll PM you later today.

[Malawry]

I believe that recipe writing lies somewhere between technical writing and creative writing. I worked as a tech writer for some time and inaccuracy really bugs me in recipes. But at the same time I am attracted to the Elizabeth David style of recipe writing; the assumption that you know how to do the basics and using that assumption to write a beautifully shorthanded version of a recipe.

Recipe-writing for school style was a real struggle for me initially. I was inclined to provide all sorts of detail that my instructors deemed superfluous. Later I found it easier to write short, "chef-style" recipes with a list of ingredients and minimal instructions. Just the same, the recipes that I wrote for my recipe notebook which I turned in for grades were not enough even for a relatively sophisticated cooking community like eGullet. When I added a recipe to a diary post, I'd add in extra details to make the recipes easier to follow. And if I was sending a recipe to a cooking novice, I'd include even more detail.

Some of the details you asked for in a recipe are things I'd never consider including. I've never written freezing directions into a recipe, especially since I am relatively new to freezing prepared foods and don't know much about what does or doesn't work. I don't cook much using special equipment, but maybe my definitions of what's special are different from others' ideas...for example, I assume that anybody trying to follow one of my recipes has parchment paper and knows how to make a cartouche (parchment paper circle) from it. As for preparation ahead, I don't think I've included info on that either, but perhaps I should.

[Anna N]

I believe that recipe writing lies somewhere between technical writing and creative writing.

Darn, I wish I could figure out how to include names/dates in quotes but...

Malawry - I agree with you. As both a creative writer and one who once revised an enormous set of software manuals (for the process control industry - no games!).

I want the personality of the author to come through perhaps in an intro to each recipe - and not "This is the best chocolate chip cookie in the world" but along the lines of "I first tasted this in ..... and found it a refreshing twist on a simple green salad. If you enjoy Asian food, you'll like this." Something that tells me what to expect of the final product.

But then I want clear, unambiguous directions on how to get to this final product.

The software manuals were neatly divided into Hardware, Software and Operator manuals with the first two being directed at Engineers and such and the last geered towards operators. But before I began my re-write, all were written at a level needing an enormous tech. background. Some research on my part uncovered the problem - the Operators averaged Grade 10 education! Our software suffered because the operators couldn't or wouldn't read the manuals. Long, long paragraphs of stuff. My partner in this endeavour wanted each instruction to follow the format:

See light

Push button

That was what we used as our guiding light for the operators.

Further, we insisted that the manuals be tested by computer "dummies" the office staff, shipping, etc. People who knew nothing whatever about the software. Could they follow the instructions.

That's how recipes (at least those aimed at novices) should be tested - not by the creators nor by professional "testers" but by home cooks who normally don't do much more than open a few cans or add beef to Hamburger Helper. They are the ones who will find the "gotchas".

Recipes too, I suppose, needed to be geared to different levels of expertise. But then perhaps we should have a rating system (as some books and magazines do) You know, Level of difficulty - Easy. Requires some knowledge in the kitchen. Don't touch unless you have a degree in culinary arts.

But some things just need to be there and aren't. In a PM to Suzanne F. I described my enterprise this a.m. with my Christmas pressie - an ice cream maker. Not to go on forever, but one instruction said - process until thickened - what the heck does that mean - until it resembles cement? light cream?

So, I think this thread will be very interesting. Thanks for your contribution.

[Jinmyo]

Anna, not only are you "no longer lurking" you are no longer "no longer lurking" but "Anna". Nice to meet you.

[Anna N]

Anna, not only are you "no longer lurking" you are no longer "no longer lurking" but "Anna". Nice to meet you.

Thanks, Jinmyo - a little authenticity (made possible by the good-nature of the vast majority of egulleteers) is good for my soul.

[Jinmyo]

Anna, not only are you "no longer lurking" you are no longer "no longer lurking" but "Anna". Nice to meet you.

Thanks, Jinmyo - a little authenticity (made possible by the good-nature of the vast majority of egulleteers) is good for my soul.

Anna to get name and date for the quotes, hit the quote button instead of the add reply button.

[g.johnson]

One of the two books I used when learning to cook was Elizabeth David’s French Provincial Cooking. The lack of precision never bothered me. I actually find vague instructions liberating. When the recipe is precise I come over all anal and follow it to the letter. When the recipe is ‘a bunch’ of this and ‘a handful’ of that I feel freer to improvise.

[Toby]

One of the two books I used when learning to cook was Elizabeth David’s French Provincial Cooking.

That was one of the books I used, too -- if something in one of her recipes utterly mystified me, I looked it up in another book, but the vagueness was very liberating, and everything always came out good.

What was the other book?

[Stone]

Like a woman's skirt. Long enough to cover the subject, but short enough to keep it interesting.

[Anna N]

One of the two books I used when learning to cook was Elizabeth David’s French Provincial Cooking.

That was one of the books I used, too -- if something in one of her recipes utterly mystified me, I looked it up in another book, but the vagueness was very liberating, and everything always came out good.

What was the other book?

And I have nothing but admiration for both of you.

But some of us are born believing that if you are going to give directions then you ought to give precise directions.

Pasta and chapatis are both made with flour and water, both can be utterly "good" but they ain't the same! And I'd be very disappointed to have one made when I really was aiming to make the other.

That's the best analogy I can come up with on short notice but I'm sure it makes the point.

[Anna N]

Like a woman's skirt.  Long enough to cover the subject, but short enough to keep it interesting.

I won't touch that one! But thanks for helping with the quote thing.

[Stephanie]

My father the baker loves Maida Heatter's recipes, not only because she explains everything so well, but because she'll tell you if something is supposed to happen that may appear to be wrong (e.g., if a cake is only meant to be 2 inches high or have a crack in the top). That's the kind of detail I want to see in a recipe.

[g.johnson]

One of the two books I used when learning to cook was Elizabeth David’s French Provincial Cooking.

What was the other book?

Jocasta Innes's The Pauper's Cookbook, a student standby of my generation.

[mamster]

There is a place for the highly specific recipe: beginner's cookbooks and recipes for things generally considered tricky (pie crust) come to mind. A specific helpful hint is never out of place (cook the pancakes on the first side until the bubbles on top start breaking). Cook's Illustrated is based on doing this format well, as are D-K books.

The problem I have with detailed recipes is that they reinforce a bad assumption: that everything you need to know about making a dish can be encapsulated into a recipe, and that learning to cook is just a matter of picking the right book and following the instructions carefully.

Good cooks are experts at what they do. Being an expert at something means that most of the task is unconscious: you've internalized all sorts of tiny principles that lead to a successful outcome, and you can no longer call up what many of them are. You can stop and think and break it down, and being able to do that well is one hallmark of a good teacher. But you will never, ever break it down completely; otherwise it wouldn't be a skilled task in the first place.

Ever taught someone to drive? Weren't you amazed to realize all the things they didn't know instinctively? Someone could write a book about driving well (some state driver's manuals aspire to this), but absolutely nobody could read the book and drive well their first time behind the wheel. The only way to become a good driver or a good cook is practice.

But cookbook publishers sell a different story: read this book, follow the carefully tested "foolproof" recipes, and bingo, you're a cook! What happens next? The aspiring cook brings the book home and the first several recipes they try come out terrible. Then they blame the book and its bad recipes or they blame themselves and conclude they just don't have the talent.

Yes, I'm painting with a broad brush here, but I have literally had people come up to me and say, "What's the secret of cooking? I tried it and I was no good." The idea that the knowledge is in the recipes encourages this. It encourages people not to cook.

The best analogy I can think of is learning to play folk songs on an acoustic guitar. Absolutely anyone with two working hands can learn to do this with a moderate level of skill, but not in the first week. First they'll think their left hand just doesn't contort that way, and blisters well up on the fingertips. A month down the road, God help us, they're playing "This Land is Your Land" with some nicely developed calluses and wondering how they ever could have thought this was hard.

Cooking can't be summed up by "easy" or "hard"--it's an acquired skill. We face acquired skills honestly when we talk about driving or guitar playing, but when it comes to cooking too often it's never-fail recipes and be an instant chef.

[Anna N]

The problem I have with detailed recipes is that they reinforce a bad assumption:  that everything you need to know about making a dish can be encapsulated into a recipe, and that learning to cook is just a matter of picking the right book and following the instructions carefully.......

Good cooks are experts at what they do.  Being an expert at something means that most of the task is unconscious:  you've internalized all sorts of tiny principles that lead to a successful outcome, and you can no longer call up what many of them are.  You can stop and think and break it down, and being able to do that well is one hallmark of a good teacher.  But you will never, ever break it down completely; otherwise it wouldn't be a skilled task in the first place...........

The only way to become a good driver or a good cook is practice..........

If I gave the impression that I expected to become a good cook from reading a book and following a recipe, I'm sorry. It's not at all where I was coming from. But if the basics are muddled then I'm not likely to ever achieve "cookdom".

Personal experience tells me that as I cook more, I become better at it, not only in the final result, but in other almost imperceptible ways of trusting my instinct, of looking at a recipe and saying - nope - that's not gonna work! Of staying organized and remembering things such as having a paper-towel lined tray ready for deep-fried goodies.

But a poorly written recipe sets me up for failure and that's where I want to see improvements. Right now, in front of me I have a small recipe book that on the same page tells me 2 T or 25Ml and in another recipe 2T or 30ml! Usually not likely to end up in complete disaster but still - it leaves me wondering what else is wrong.

So, I hope I have at least dispelled the thought that I expect to become a star cook from following a book - anymore than I will expect to become a second Michaelangelo from following a Paint-By-Numbers set.

Thank you for your thoughts.

[mamster]

Sorry, Anna, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was attributing all of that to you. I meant to be hand-waving and blaming everything on society and evil publishers.

Of course I agree that there are lousy recipes out there (boring is the worst offense in my opinion--I hate cooking something new, trying the finished product, and saying, "Well, that's not terrible, but it's not great").

You know why Mastering the Art of French Cooking turned so many people into cooks? It wasn't because it had the best recipes--indeed, John and Karen Hess make a convincing case that it didn't. It was because it made people want to cook, to impress their friends, to taste these things they couldn't get in a restaurant in their hometown.

So I think starting off with a cookbook with badly written recipes will lead to frustration. But starting off with a superb beginner's cookbook will also lead to frustration. If you don't get frustrated while learning to cook, you're a saint. And in the end I don't think it matters much which kind of cookbook you start with as long as it's something that keeps drawing you back, demanding that you try it again because you just have to taste that.

[Anna N]

Sorry, Anna, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was attributing all of that to you.  I meant to be hand-waving and blaming everything on society and evil publishers.  

Of course I agree that there are lousy recipes out there (boring is the worst offense in my opinion--I hate cooking something new, trying the finished product, and saying, "Well, that's not terrible, but it's not great").

You know why Mastering the Art of French Cooking turned so many people into cooks?  It wasn't because it had the best recipes--indeed, John and Karen Hess make a convincing case that it didn't.  It was because it made people want to cook, to impress their friends, to taste these things they couldn't get in a restaurant in their hometown.

So I think starting off with a cookbook with badly written recipes will lead to frustration.  But starting off with a superb beginner's cookbook will also lead to frustration.  If you don't get frustrated while learning to cook, you're a saint.  And in the end I don't think it matters much which kind of cookbook you start with as long as it's something that keeps drawing you back, demanding that you try it again because you just have to taste that.

WHEW! Thanks.

And yes, the biggest frustration is making a recipe that has been lauded by everyone from here to eternity and discovering that it's Ok but hey, what was all the fuss about?

The next biggest frustration is not being able to cook the same dish over and over and over again over a short time interval to see how it can be improved. I have a thing, inherited from parents who lived through the depression and rationing. that makes it difficult for me to toss food out. That and knowing how many are without food. Other crafts stress that your biggest and best teacher is the waste basket or the garbage bin! But the two of us can only eat so much and even the finest dish palls after a few closely timed repeats. I do try with dishes that don't require costly ingredients.

I would love to cook my way through a book as many egulleteers have done. I'm not sure that the Mastering the Art of French Cooking is the one for today, though. A little too guilt-inducing on the calorie/fat side! I did borrow Julia Child's The Way to Cook from our local library but it had been so vandalized (pages torn out) as to be pretty useless. But from Great Dinners From Life Magazine (I think that was its title - it got lost in a move) I made Child's French Onion Soup and still make it today and I guess that's my signature dish.

Sorry I've never heard of John and Karen Hess but that does sound like an interesting read! Can you tell me where to find it? Book? Magazine article?

Anyway, thanks for all your thoughts on this subject - which I find quite fascinating. (both the subject and your thoughts!)

[Suzanne F]

One of my favorite writers, John Thorne, had this to say in Simple Cooking:

Perhaps the worst culinary temptation to ever lure a cook astray is the misguided belief that there is, somewhere, the perfect recipe for a favorite dish, best of the best, against which all other versions pale by comparison, and that the cook's only task is to find it.  More cookbooks have been bought in vain because they promised the hopeful the consummate chocolate chip cookie, the nonpareil of pot roasts, the quintessential cassoulet or carrot cake, only to have the purchaser discover -- too late -- that each of us tastes the world with a different tongue.

Perfect dishes do appear now and again in this all-too-imperfect world, but perfect recipes, never....

[Anna N]

One of my favorite writers, John Thorne, had this to say in Simple Cooking:

Perhaps the worst culinary temptation to ever lure a cook astray is the misguided belief that there is, somewhere, the perfect recipe for a favorite dish, best of the best, against which all other versions pale by comparison, and that the cook's only task is to find it.  More cookbooks have been bought in vain because they promised the hopeful the consummate chocolate chip cookie, the nonpareil of pot roasts, the quintessential cassoulet or carrot cake, only to have the purchaser discover -- too late -- that each of us tastes the world with a different tongue.

Perfect dishes do appear now and again in this all-too-imperfect world, but perfect recipes, never....

I think this is a great quote and so true!

And another one I like but can't quote exactly nor even attribute:

It's a recipe for heaven's sake not a formula for a prescription drug.

Still, you have to get halfway there before you can start "tweaking" to get it to suit your taste buds. Hence, I still maintain a need for clarity in recipe writing, as you do.

[Anna N]

One of my favorite writers, John Thorne, had this to say in Simple Cooking:

Perhaps the worst culinary temptation to ever lure a cook astray is the misguided belief that there is, somewhere, the perfect recipe for a favorite dish, best of the best, against which all other versions pale by comparison, and that the cook's only task is to find it.  More cookbooks have been bought in vain because they promised the hopeful the consummate chocolate chip cookie, the nonpareil of pot roasts, the quintessential cassoulet or carrot cake, only to have the purchaser discover -- too late -- that each of us tastes the world with a different tongue.

Perfect dishes do appear now and again in this all-too-imperfect world, but perfect recipes, never....

I think this is a great quote and so true!

And another one I like but can't quote exactly nor even attribute:

It's a recipe for heaven's sake not a formula for a prescription drug.

Still, you have to get halfway there before you can start "tweaking" to get it to suit your taste buds. Hence, I still maintain a need for clarity in recipe writing, as you do.

[msp]

I have written thousands of recipes for publication, and been published in over a hundred books, magazines and newspapers combined. In my daily column, the recipes appear as I write them; in many magazines they are edited to fit the magazine's style (and for some books, I am required to write in a specific style). I believe I have seen my meaning misconstrued, key information left out, helpful tidbits ommitted, and recipes improved with sensitive editing.

Over the years, I learned to appreciate certain attributes of well-written recipes. They include:

1. Visual clues: "Cook, stirring, for 10 minutes, or until the sauce is the consistency of heavy cream."

2. Simple Explanations: "To avoid scorching the garlic, be sure to..."

3. Approximate, if not exact, time or effort required to complete a task: "Bring the potatoes and water to a boil and continue cooking for another x minutes, or until the potatoes are tender"..."Broil for 10 minutes, or until the center is barely translucent." In contrast, "Broil until the center is barely translucent" leaves the inexperienced cook wondering if she has time to make the rice from start to finish after she puts the fish in, or if she should stand by the oven door and check every three minutes).

4. Headnotes that tell you what to expect: Is the dish elegant looking? Subtle or rubust? Hearty and filling? Can it be made ahead? Is any part of the recipe tricky?

There are, of course, many other considerations. Style is a matter of personal opinion. Do you like your recipes chatty or precise and concise? Do you want the recipe to serve as a rough guideline or an exact technical manual?

As a writer, I think first about who my reader is for each recipe, and try to visualize him/her. Is he/she a novice or experienced cook? Harried or cooking for pleasure in leisure time? A sophisticated diner who wants simple, clear directions? Confident? Happy to be cooking? Attentive to what he/she is doing in the kitchen? I am both a technical writer and a friend as I visualize my reader.

The best recipes that I read (and follow) have an authoratative, encouraging, and clear, unfussy voice.

[mamster]

Excellent, msp. Anna, John and Karen Hess wrote a book in the 70s called The Taste of America; it's a highly entertaining and well-written rant about the state of American cooking at the time. Some of it is still germane, some of historical interest, but all fun and worthy of debate.

[Anna N]

I have written thousands of recipes for publication, and been published in over a hundred books, magazines and newspapers combined. In my daily column, the recipes appear as I write them; in many magazines they are edited to fit the magazine's style (and for some books, I am required to write in a specific style). I believe I have seen my meaning misconstrued, key information left out, helpful tidbits ommitted, and recipes improved with sensitive editing.

Over the years, I learned to appreciate certain attributes of well-written recipes. They include:

1. Visual clues: "Cook, stirring, for 10 minutes, or until the sauce is the consistency of heavy cream."

2. Simple Explanations: "To avoid scorching the garlic, be sure to..."

3. Approximate, if not exact, time or effort required to complete a task: "Bring the potatoes and water to a boil and continue cooking for another x minutes, or until the potatoes are tender"..."Broil for 10 minutes, or until the center is barely translucent." In contrast, "Broil until the center is barely translucent" leaves the inexperienced cook wondering if she has time to make the rice from start to finish after she puts the fish in, or if she should stand by the oven door and check every three minutes).

4. Headnotes that tell you what to expect: Is the dish elegant looking? Subtle or rubust? Hearty and filling? Can it be made ahead? Is any part of the recipe tricky?

There are, of course, many other considerations. Style is a matter of personal opinion. Do you like your recipes chatty or precise and concise? Do you want the recipe to serve as a rough guideline or an exact technical manual?

As a writer, I think first about who my reader is for each recipe, and try to visualize him/her. Is he/she a novice or experienced cook? Harried or cooking for pleasure in leisure time? A sophisticated diner who wants simple, clear directions? Confident? Happy to be cooking? Attentive to what he/she is doing in the kitchen? I am both a technical writer and a friend as I visualize my reader.

The best recipes that I read (and follow) have an authoratative, encouraging, and clear, unfussy voice.

A little detective work, a little browsing and I was able to come up with a number of your recipes. I have to say they do come close to the kind of detail I like to see. I am particularly impressed with the ones that include suggestions for sides and accompaniments. Tonight - Quick Coq au Vin!

And I cannot argue that you must write for your audience and that means adjusting from novice to expert in terms of detail. But you seem to have found a good compromise - enough but not too much.

I like headnotes, and visual clues and comparisons to things I'm likely to understand - e.g. "the consistency of heavy cream".

I think you've covered a lot of the basics here - wish more recipe writers be so considerate! Thanks -