Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment, 2012

[JanK]

Food safety question:

If a piece of meat (say a chuck roast for example) has been properly and completely cooked via SV at a temp of 135F, could it then be removed from the bag and immediately placed in a moist air environment at the same 135F temp and kept there safely for several hours? Of course, this assumes that the non-SV environment is properly controlled at the desired temperature.

I know that air is not an appropriate medium for LTLT cooking because of the poor heat transfer characteristics, but in this hypothetical case, the meat is fully cooked and is at the desired temperature to start with.

Note: This would be for service directly after being removed from the hot air environment. It wouldn't be intended for chilling or freezing for use at a significantly later date.

[Robert Jueneman]

I would think so. Even if some air-bourne bacterial floated in, they wouldn't survive at the pasteurization temperature.

But why not just leave it in the bag until service? Or are you planning on slicing it to order?

[JanK]

I thought I might get the "why not just leave it in the bag?" question

The reason I want to take it out is that I want to try adding a "warm smoke" process. My plan is to use the water bath as the actual heat source, and to put the meat on a rack above the water. The space where the meat is would be fully enclosed so that the heat from the water is trapped. The temperature sensor is in the air space above the water, but the heating element is in the water.

Then I plan to inject smoke from an external source (wood chips on a miniature cast iron skillet set on a hot plate) via the air line that I am already using as a "bubbler". I haven't yet quite figured out the mechanics of getting the smoke into the air line, but I think that's a modest engineering challenge. The air space would only be vented when necessary to "freshen" the smoke.

The whole thing bears some similarity to the way the Smoking Gun from Polyscience is used, but I want to be able to do a more lengthy smoking process coupled with the moist heat.

I've tested the temp control in the enclosed area above the hot water, and it seems to hold quite nicely. Right now I'm in the "proof of concept" phase, but I didn't want to make myself sick when I get to the point of cooking something that I'll actually eat.

Why go to all this trouble instead of just using a smoker?

A) I don't have a smoker and I don't have a place to put one if I did.

B) I think it will help keep the meat more moist than a typical dry smoke technique would.

C) It's cheap (no meaningful cost for wood or charcoal.

D) I just think it would be kind of cool.

Why not use the Smoking Gun as the smoke source? I don't have the money for it. If Polyscience wants to send me one to help develop a new use for the tool, I'm ready and willing.

My plan is to finish the meat with a brief turn in a very hot oven or by searing, depending on what kind of meat it is and what sort of rub or paste is on it.

What do you think?

[rotuts]

if your finishing place is really at or above 131 and humid, i cant see the problem unless you dont wash your hands often

you need to read through this thread to understand that the final crust must come from a very hot source and be brief if you want rare: right next to hot hot charcoal or a cast iron red hot pan.

good luck and post some pics if you get the chance.

[blackp]

Then I plan to inject smoke from an external source (wood chips on a miniature cast iron skillet set on a hot plate) via the air line that I am already using as a "bubbler". I haven't yet quite figured out the mechanics of getting the smoke into the air line, but I think that's a modest engineering challenge. The air space would only be vented when necessary to "freshen" the smoke.

What do you think?

If you are using an aquarium air pump for your 'bubbler" I would not consider using it to pump smoke directly. The "tar" in the smoke will very quickly gum up the pump mechanism and stop it from working permanently. Aquarium pumps typically use a vibrating motor and one or more rubber/silicone membranes which enclose a small space fitted with one way valves so that when the motion is in one direction it sucks in external air and when the motion is reversed it blows that air down the outlet tube. It is these valves which will not survive the "tar" in smoke.

On the other hand the Smoking Gun and the similar Aladin which I have use a fan to suck air through the burning wood chips and force smoke through the outlet. Even these can gum up but it takes quite a bit of use to gum the fan up to the point where you need to clean it whereas a tiny one-way air valve will clog up and fail to work with very little contamination.

Sorry for saying what won't work rather than having a solution to your problem, but I suspect that there isn't a simple solution. That's why we have smokers and smoking gun type devices.

[JanK]

That's a very good point about the tar screwing up the pump. I'm sure you're absolutely right about that. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Shalmanese]

Does anyone know what happens to vegetables during long cook times? For reasons that are unimportant to go into right now, I'm cooking potatoes at 170F for 12 hours. What will I get at the end of it? Tender potatoes? Mush?

[nickrey]

Mash?

[LoftyNotions]

Does anyone know what happens to vegetables during long cook times? For reasons that are unimportant to go into right now, I'm cooking potatoes at 170F for 12 hours. What will I get at the end of it? Tender potatoes? Mush?

The potato cooking I've done has been limited to 2 trials, first at 165F and the second at 175F. The first trial was for 60 and 90 minutes, both of which were undercooked. They were edible, but I wouldn't have served them to company like that. The second trial was for 60 minutes only, since there wasn't much difference between 60 and 90 minutes in the first trial. At 175, I would characterize the potatoes as al dente, but pleasant.In both cases, the potatoes were sliced and cooked in butter, salt and pepper.

I'm sorry that doesn't specifically answer your question. Hopefully someone else will be along shortly to give you a better answer. You're kind of in no-man's land but I'd guess that you have a reasonable chance of having something edible.

Larry

[m61376]

Smoking Beef Ribs

Smoke first and then cook SV, or SV and then smoke, finishing off with a hot grill sear?

Timing and temperature suggestions?? I'm thinking 140 degrees for 48 hours- does that sound right?

Would you recommend a dry rub for smoking and SV, and then sauce for the end when grilling, or sauce for the SV?

[ScottyBoy]

I do a 7 hour cold smoke, 48 hours at 140 and finish on the grill.

[blackp]

While I haven't tried it with ribs I did a blind taste test for bacon where I had 3 pork bellies all treaded identically up to the point where:

1 was smoked.

1 was cooked SV and then smoked.

1 was smoked and then cooked SV. All cooking and smoking times were the same for all pieces.

I gave samples to several friends marked only with numbers so none of the eaters had any idea about how they were prepared.

The results were one person short of 100% in favour of cook SV and then smoke. The one person who didn't like that best preferred the smoked only sample.

Nobody liked the smoke first and then cook SV batch.

My guess is that the sv cookery lowers the intensity of the smoke flavour.

Must get some ribs and give it a try both ways.

[ScottyBoy]

!!!

Must try this.

Then must find friends who can cook for me and give me a blind taste test.

[ojisan]

Does meat cooked sous vide benefit from resting before cutting into, the same way as conventionally cooked?

[nickrey]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say no. Because it hasn't had the shock of high temperature cooking, you can serve it as is and know that the juices are distributed throughout the cut. If you were a bit overzealous with the sear, however, it may benefit from a bit of resting.

[avaserfi]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say no. Because it hasn't had the shock of high temperature cooking, you can serve it as is and know that the juices are distributed throughout the cut. If you were a bit overzealous with the sear, however, it may benefit from a bit of resting.

Exactly. The rest with traditional searing allows the contracted muscle fibers to relax. The muscle fiber contracts from prolonged exposure to the high heat. Cooking sous vide doesn't have the same effect, unless the final sear is long enough to contract the muscle fibers significantly beyond the surface which tends to negate the effects of sous vide cooking.

Hardold McGee covers the topic of juice release when searing very well in his books The Curious Cook and On Food and Cooking.

[Shalmanese]

I thought low temp cooking wouldn't require a rest but I did a rib roast at 60C in a 60C oven and juice leaked out everywhere when I carved it immediately after taking it out. Has anyone else had that experience?

[ScottyBoy]

I rest mine. For a much shorter period but do.

[pep.]

MC states that resting is mainly to allow the juices to cool and thereby thicken (think gelatin) a bit before cutting. I can't remember the page, though.

[SkwrHdz]

With sous vide cooking there is sometimes a problem of items floating and not staying fully submerged. To me this seems to occur most often with vegetables.

I have found a solution to this which I thought I'd share. I use it with the Sous Vide Supreme so I know it fits in it, I can't speak for other models.

First let me state I have no connection with either the manufacturer nor the retailer.

Check out:

Rack for SVS

http://cayneshousewares.com/product.php?productid=8679

It is called "EZ Expandable Roasting Rack" by 'Nifty' and I purchased a couple of them from the web site of Caynes Houseware Stores for $9.99 each.

Just put one on top of the vacuum packed items in the separator rack of the Sous Vide. It is just the right width and is adjustable for length. I removed the two handles as being unnecessary for this use.

This will stop individual items from floating and working their way to the surface.  To stop the whole rack being lifted up I simply place a flat soup bowl, about 1 1/2 inches ( 3.3 cm ) high on top of the SVS's rack which the lid of the SVS holds down and keeps everything under water.

Hope this might be of interest to others. To me it's a simple answer to floating vegetables; but just why do vegetables so often float when few other things do?

[paulpegg]

Here is a Link To My Solution for floating bags.You can use them in any configuration. I tried holding them down with a rack as you suggested but they were able to get out from under the rack when in the cooler version of my rig.

Vegetables give off gas when heated, which is why they float. Things like asparagus are particularly susceptible to floating.

[turtleboom]

Hi,

Hopefully someone can help out with a bit of a problem I have. I'm cooking short ribs for 48 hours @60C. When we went to bed at 11pm, the bath was working nicely at 60C. This morning, my wife woke up at 5:30am and discovered that we had a power outage overnight. When she woke up, power had been restored and the sous vide rig was at 60C (I use a Sous Vide Magic and rice cooker - it automatically restarts when power is restored).

We're trying to find out how long the outage was, to estimate how much the water temperature would have dropped during the blackout.

The short ribs had been in the bath for over 24 hours before the power was cut.

How can I tell if they are safe to eat? What temperature can the bath drop too before I have to throw them away?

Thanks.

[ScottyBoy]

"To eat or not to eat" Is always a hard question but... How much longer are they going for? If there was a power outage for a bit overnight and you're still going to cook them for another 30+ hours at 60 then I would figure it would be fine.

[Robert Jueneman]

Turtleboom,

Unless you need to eat them right away, I would chill them, and then measure the temperature drop if you turn off the power, vs. how long you think you were without power.

If the temperature drop over that amount of time was less than 5C, i.e., to less than 55 C, then you are absolutely OK. If it was longer than that, then the question is whether it would drop to below 55C for more than four hours.

Since I suspect that you would have known if the power had gone out for four hours or more, I think you are almost certainly fine.

If not, feel free to inscribe this on your tombstone! :-)

Good luck!

[DocDougherty]

Turtleboom,

Assuming that the core temperature was above 59°C for 16 hrs, you have run the bacterial count down by over 12 orders of magnitude (decimations). The decimation time for some of the most virulent thermo-tolerant bacteria is about !:15 at 59°C. Unless the meat was putrid when you started, it was sterile at the point you lost power. Seven decimation times is usually sufficient to drop the CFU count well below one per gm.