Home Made Ice Cream (2013– )

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Jo, how do Turkish bay leaves differ from the more prevalent bay leaves in groceries?

Also, how does the Windsor pan make less work? Is there less stirring required? I've recently purchased a 30cm pan, which has 70% more surface area than the 23cm pan Ruben uses in his recipes. This cuts the evaporation time from 60 minutes down to 35 minutes.

These are McCormick Turkish Bay Leaves, purchased from my local supermarket. What kind of bay leaves are in your stores?

Less work because the level of liquid is deeper, which means I have less worry about the temperature probe coming above the surface and giving a false reading. Also stirring is easier. Windsor pans are designed for reducing sauces.

[timpoblete]

Jo, how do Turkish bay leaves differ from the more prevalent bay leaves in groceries?

Also, how does the Windsor pan make less work? Is there less stirring required? I've recently purchased a 30cm pan, which has 70% more surface area than the 23cm pan Ruben uses in his recipes. This cuts the evaporation time from 60 minutes down to 35 minutes.

These are McCormick Turkish Bay Leaves, purchased from my local supermarket. What kind of bay leaves are in your stores?

Less work because the level of liquid is deeper, which means I have less worry about the temperature probe coming above the surface and giving a false reading. Also stirring is easier. Windsor pans are designed for reducing sauces.

Regarding the Bay Leaves, I'll take a look. I assumed the Turkish Bay Leaves were something different, but maybe they're what I've been using the whole time.

For the temperature probe, I have one that clips to the side of the pan. Here's a photo of my setup. The bottom of the probe is always in contact with the liquid, no matter how shallow the liquid gets. I use two wooden spatulas (is that the correct term for these?) to move the liquid around and scrape the bottom.

[paulraphael]

Jo,

In short, you play with invert sugar and dextrose together to lower the freezing point while keeping same sweetness as sugar. Also prevents cristalisation and sandy texture. I am away for a couple of days, can share more once i am back home, from a great book that Darienne eas so kind to send

Bojana's exactly right. And no need to worry about "extra fructose." Invert sugar has the same amount of fructose as the table sugar it's made from.

I have never seen real evidence even hinting at health (or other) reasons to avoid it. Beware the pseudoscience of the blogosphere! If you were ever to find a real reason to reduce fructose, you'd want to avoid fruit.

Edited May 10, 2013 by paulraphael (log)

[timpoblete]

Jo,

In short, you play with invert sugar and dextrose together to lower the freezing point while keeping same sweetness as sugar. Also prevents cristalisation and sandy texture. I am away for a couple of days, can share more once i am back home, from a great book that Darienne eas so kind to send

Exactly. And there is no "extra fructose." Invert sugar has the same amount of fructose as the table sugar it's made from.

I have never seen real evidence even hinting at health (or other) reasons to avoid it. Beware the pseudoscience of the blogosphere. If you were ever to find a real reason to reduce fructose, you'd want to avoid fruit.

After some quick googling, it seems that table sugar (sucrose) is fructose and glucose combined into one molecule that is larger than fructose and glucose individually. Invert sugar has the same ratio of fructose:glucose as sucrose, but the fructose and glucose are separated. Because they are separated (and are smaller molecules) they tend to retain moisture and are less prone to crystallisation than sucrose. I think I'll give Invert Sugar a try.

As for the evidence against fructose, it was the article in the NYTimes (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17Sugar-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) and the lecture by UCSF Professor Robert Lustig (posted on YouTube

) that initially motivated me to reduce my fructose intake several years ago. All this ice cream making certainly doesn't help, but I compensate in other ways. Don't need to go into the details and if anyone's interested they can go into the links posted. Fruit does contain Fructose (it's the sweet component of fruit), but all of the other ingredients in fruit, such as the fiber, help to reduce the body's absorption of Fructose and the positive elements of fruit help outweigh the negatives from the Fructose.

[paulraphael]

Lustig's fructose rants strike me as highly suspect. He has come under a lot of criticism in the research community for basing his conclusions on (other people's) studies that are of poor quality.

Even so, his peer-reviewed research doesn't make claims that are as bombastic as the ones he makes publicly. Beware of researchers who make melodramatic cases directly to the public—most are quacks. Lustig is not a quack, but he's become a zealot on an issue that has virtually no other scientific support.

I don't think anyone outside the soft drink industry will dispute that it's a good idea to cut down on sugar. But to demonize it as poison, or to single out and demonize the monosacharide that we're most evolved to eat—I don't think he or anyone else has made that case.

Eat less ice cream. But make it good! This means using the sugars that make it good.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

My primary concern with fructose is not a heath issue, but rather a taste issue. When one tastes sucrose it is not the same as tasting glucose and fructose. Not only is invert sugar sweeter than sucrose, the sweetness is perceived more rapidly and does not linger as long as the sweetness of sucrose. I can see the value of dextrose (glucose) in making ice cream, for increasing solids and reducing sweetness. But why add fructose? My own experiments of adding invert sugar (in the form of refiner's syrup) were not a success.

Invert sugar is used in baking and confectionary to prevent formation of sucrose hydrate crystals, but I doubt this is an issue for ice cream. (Note, it might be an issue for sorbet.)

Fruit is not your friend. It has its own agenda. Some fruits want to be eaten by mammals. Mammals are attracted by sweetness. Why not make the sweetest sugar that takes the least effort to synthesize? In addition to fructose some fruits make toxins: cyanide, hypoglycin, caffeine, theobromine, and the like. Besides, most plants use sucrose as their carbohydrate of choice.

I'd argue that rather than monosaccharides, we are probably more evolved to eat disaccharides, like lactose, and, yes, sucrose.

Bojana, I've read Corvitto -- thanks to Kerry Beal.

[Mjx]

I'm not seeing the connection between the use of various sugars in ice cream and our capacity to handle sugars, but H. sapiens existed as a species long before figuring out any regular way of getting hold of lactose and sucrose (e.g. herding, agriculture; disaccharides–including lactase, originally only available to infants–are less common in nature than glucose and fructose), so we can't be described as specially/more evolved to consume them.

But so what? Excess of anything usually works out badly, and a dish of ice cream seems unlikely to tip some delicate balance on its own. I'm always happy to know that my ice cream is not bad for me (leaving aside the discomfort of lactose intolerance, which I'm willing to deal with for good ice cream), but like most people, its tastiness is what makes or breaks it (for me, the taste of corn syrup you get in a lot of commercial ice creams is not a plus).

[paulraphael]

My primary concern with fructose is not a heath issue, but rather a taste issue. When one tastes sucrose it is not the same as tasting glucose and fructose. Not only is invert sugar sweeter than sucrose, the sweetness is perceived more rapidly and does not linger as long as the sweetness of sucrose. I can see the value of dextrose (glucose) in making ice cream, for increasing solids and reducing sweetness. But why add fructose? My own experiments of adding invert sugar (in the form of refiner's syrup) were not a success.

Invert sugar is used in baking and confectionary to prevent formation of sucrose hydrate crystals, but I doubt this is an issue for ice cream. (Note, it might be an issue for sorbet.)

Fruit is not your friend. It has its own agenda. Some fruits want to be eaten by mammals. Mammals are

You don't have to worry about the flavor of fructose when the blend of sugars is 10% trimoline. I promise. Blindfolds and a wager

Invert syrup is around 30% sweeter than sucrose, but has 90% greater freezing point suppression. Dextrose has high freezing point suppression as well, but has about 30% less sweetness than sucrose. Having a sweeter sugar in the mix allows you get your desired sweetness with less sugar total.

Unlike the dry sugars it helps stabilize the free water in the recipe and it helps prevent crystalization of the sugars.

It is especially helpful in any recipe with dry ingredients like chocolate, nuts or nut pastes, or dried fruits.

The ratio of saccharides that I suggested is comparable to the ratio that exists natually in many fruits. I don't want to get sucked into an absurdist Defence of Fruits, but I will suggest that their sweetness tends to taste natural, if nothing else. Keep in mind that honey is mostly invert syrup. I think it tastes pretty nice.

Edited May 11, 2013 by paulraphael (log)

[Darienne]

Thanks for that explanation Paulraphael. Always good to read your words.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

One thing I did not realize: on a molar basis (not a weight basis) sucrose is sweeter than fructose. Thus even fructose would be more effective in lowering the freezing point of ice cream than sucrose, if the goal is to keep the ice cream from being too sweet.

[jjahorn]

Looking through I haven't found a thread on frozen yogurt.

I tried making some in my ice cream machine this week (first day over 25C!!!) Right out of the machine was still a little too soft, but we ate it anyways, but the leftovers went into the freezer.

Next afternoon - ROCK solid....

Does anyone have a good formula for yogurt that it will be scoopable out of the freezer?

This is generally a problem with a lot of ice creams I try as well (but I'm getting better, had a good gelatin based watermelon-lime ice cream in April that wsa still scoopable)...

[ElsieD]

I recently made some frozen raspberry yogurt. This was the first time I had made it and it, too, is as hard as a rock. Maybe this should be a separate thread?

[timpoblete]

Yogurt is milk that has had bacteria added to it. The bacteria processes the lactose in the milk (turns it into glucose and galactose I think?), but I don't believe that it does anything to the proteins or the fats that would make them act differently. Thus, frozen yogurt should be treated primary like milk or cream, using proportions based on the fat content and expected protein content.

If your frozen yogurt is coming out rock solid, then I would assume it's because the fat content isn't high enough and other factors discussed in this thread regarding ice crystallization and making soft ice cream.

ooking through I haven't found a thread on frozen yogurt.

I tried making some in my ice cream machine this week (first day over 25C!!!) Right out of the machine was still a little too soft, but we ate it anyways, but the leftovers went into the freezer.

Next afternoon - ROCK solid....

Does anyone have a good formula for yogurt that it will be scoopable out of the freezer?

This is generally a problem with a lot of ice creams I try as well (but I'm getting better, had a good gelatin based watermelon-lime ice cream in April that wsa still scoopable)...

On a side note, I've started experimenting with adding yogurt bacteria to ice cream after the heating process (per Ruben's procedure).

- The ice cream mix is brought down to 110F-120F and a small scoop of yogurt (on the order of tablespoons) is added and whisked in.

- The mixture is maintained at no more than 120F for several hours, just like you would make yogurt at home.

- Then the mixture is then chilled. Out of the fridge it's very thick.

- The mix is thrown into the machine and outcomes basically frozen ice yogurt/cream. The sweetness is dramatically reduced (due to the bacteria eating up the sugars) and the texture was pretty smooth (didn't have much time in freezer after). It was also tangy, much like yogurt. Only made a very small batch so I've still got some more experimenting to do.

The reason to add bacteria to the mixture is if you want probiotics in there to aid with digestion. I'm still figuring out if the bacteria does anything to the texture, but the next several batches will determine if there's anything down this road other than probiotics.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I have never made frozen yogurt, but if I wanted to experiment I would start with sour cream rather than actual yogurt as a base. If I were instead using real yogurt I would want to drain the yogurt to remove as much of the water as I could. Sour cream sounds better to me though. I'm interested to learn how you make out.

[Tri2Cook]

Yogurt, cream, non-fat dry milk powder and sorbet syrup (water, sugar, glucose powder, stabilizer) works great. I'm sure it would work just as well using a simple syrup instead of the sorbet syrup but I usually have the sorbet syrup on hand so that's what I use. Fruit puree can be worked in with a little adjusting. I find fruit puree and plain yogurt gives better flavor results than using a fruit yogurt as the base.

[Bojana]

I made a lovely sheep yogurt ice cream that was scoopabe at -18C and tasted very fresh and tangy. I used the guidelines from Corvitto's book and made my own formula, worked like a charm.

In nutshell, balance fat, sugars and solids to ensure all free water is bound and the right anti freezing level is achieved. If anyone is interested, I'll post my percentages.

[DianaM]

I made a lovely sheep yogurt ice cream that was scoopabe at -18C and tasted very fresh and tangy. I used the guidelines from Corvitto's book and made my own formula, worked like a charm.

In nutshell, balance fat, sugars and solids to ensure all free water is bound and the right anti freezing level is achieved. If anyone is interested, I'll post my percentages.

Bojana, I am interested. If you could please post your formula, that would be great. Thanks!

[ElsieD]

I made a lovely sheep yogurt ice cream that was scoopabe at -18C and tasted very fresh and tangy. I used the guidelines from Corvitto's book and made my own formula, worked like a charm.In nutshell, balance fat, sugars and solids to ensure all free water is bound and the right anti freezing level is achieved. If anyone is interested, I'll post my percentages.

I second that request.

[paulraphael]

Nonfat solids, especially sugars, have a much more pronounced effect on hardness than the fat level. Fat actually has no freezing point suppression ability at all; it only effects hardness by its whipability into a strong foam, and by how hard the fat molecules themselves crystalize. This latter question mostly becomes an issue when you have fats that harden a lot, like cocoa butter. When your ice cream only has milk and egg fat, you'll find that the fat percentage makes little difference compared to the other solids.

A great way get your recipes under control is to pay attention to drawing temperature. This is the temperature of the mix when it's whipped up to the texture and overrun level you like. I keep a thermopen style thermometer by my ice cream machine and check the temperature when I think the ice cream is ready. All my recipes are designed to draw at -5°C / 23F. This is a good temp to aim for. It gives a good texture at serving temperature, gives good resistance to ice crystals growing, and guarantees consistency from one flavor to the next.

[timpoblete]

paulraphael - thanks for the info on the drawing temperature. Hadn't seen any measurable guidelines on when to actually stop the machine until now.

[ElsieD]

Nonfat solids, especially sugars, have a much more pronounced effect on hardness than the fat level. Fat actually has no freezing point suppression ability at all; it only effects hardness by its whipability into a strong foam, and by how hard the fat molecules themselves crystalize. This latter question mostly becomes an issue when you have fats that harden a lot, like cocoa butter. When your ice cream only has milk and egg fat, you'll find that the fat percentage makes little difference compared to the other solids.

A great way get your recipes under control is to pay attention to drawing temperature. This is the temperature of the mix when it's whipped up to the texture and overrun level you like. I keep a thermopen style thermometer by my ice cream machine and check the temperature when I think the ice cream is ready. All my recipes are designed to draw at -5°C / 23F. This is a good temp to aim for. It gives a good texture at serving temperature, gives good resistance to ice crystals growing, and guarantees consistency from one flavor to the next.

If I understand you correctly, while the ice cream is churning I should periodically take the temperature and when it is -5C, transfer it to a freezer container and put it in the freezer? I have a Thermopen so I can get quick readings. Would this hold true for sherbets and frozen yogurt too?

[Bojana]

Here is what I have done,hope it's clear. I am in a rush now, if you have any questions I'll come back later to answer.

[DianaM]

I have a few questions for everyone who has tried the icecreamscience method.

Yesterday I tried to make the roasted hazelnut ice-cream on Ruben's website, BUT I only cooked the custard for about 40 minutes (my patience ran out at this point, sorry). Also, I did NOT age it overnight in the fridge, just cooled it in the ice-bath, and started churning it when it got really cold. I have the Cuisinart ICE-20 (with the 2-quart bowl), and I used a hazelnut paste from Cacao Barry.

The flavour is great, and in the mouth it melts smoothly, without leaving a heavy film on the palate, like some of Jeni's recipes do. However, when it was done churning, it looked... grainy, sandy?! Not even sure if this is the right word for it, as I have never experienced a texture like this, although I have made ice-cream many, many times using the custard method.

So here is a pic I took today, after the ice-cream has had a night in my (-18C) freezer.

Where I scoop, it looks smooth, but the top still has that grainy look. I know that when you don't follow a formula, you're asking for trouble, I just would like to know your thoughts on what may have caused this texture. Again, the taste is everything I like about ice-cream, but the look... not quite.

Thanks in advance for any help!

[paulraphael]

Nonfat solids, especially sugars, have a much more pronounced effect on hardness than the fat level. Fat actually has no freezing point suppression ability at all; it only effects hardness by its whipability into a strong foam, and by how hard the fat molecules themselves crystalize. This latter question mostly becomes an issue when you have fats that harden a lot, like cocoa butter. When your ice cream only has milk and egg fat, you'll find that the fat percentage makes little difference compared to the other solids.

A great way get your recipes under control is to pay attention to drawing temperature. This is the temperature of the mix when it's whipped up to the texture and overrun level you like. I keep a thermopen style thermometer by my ice cream machine and check the temperature when I think the ice cream is ready. All my recipes are designed to draw at -5°C / 23F. This is a good temp to aim for. It gives a good texture at serving temperature, gives good resistance to ice crystals growing, and guarantees consistency from one flavor to the next.

If I understand you correctly, while the ice cream is churning I should periodically take the temperature and when it is -5C, transfer it to a freezer container and put it in the freezer? I have a Thermopen so I can get quick readings. Would this hold true for sherbets and frozen yogurt too?

Nonfat solids, especially sugars, have a much more pronounced effect on hardness than the fat level. Fat actually has no freezing point suppression ability at all; it only effects hardness by its whipability into a strong foam, and by how hard the fat molecules themselves crystalize. This latter question mostly becomes an issue when you have fats that harden a lot, like cocoa butter. When your ice cream only has milk and egg fat, you'll find that the fat percentage makes little difference compared to the other solids.

A great way get your recipes under control is to pay attention to drawing temperature. This is the temperature of the mix when it's whipped up to the texture and overrun level you like. I keep a thermopen style thermometer by my ice cream machine and check the temperature when I think the ice cream is ready. All my recipes are designed to draw at -5°C / 23F. This is a good temp to aim for. It gives a good texture at serving temperature, gives good resistance to ice crystals growing, and guarantees consistency from one flavor to the next.

If I understand you correctly, while the ice cream is churning I should periodically take the temperature and when it is -5C, transfer it to a freezer container and put it in the freezer? I have a Thermopen so I can get quick readings. Would this hold true for sherbets and frozen yogurt too?

You don't want to take the ice cream out of the machine before it looks right. The idea is to refine your recipes so they will reach the right hardness and volume at the ideal temperature.

I take the temperature of the ice cream when it starts to look finished ... this will tell me if it needs to go another minute or two. But more importantly it gives me feedback about a recipe. If the ice cream is hard enough but the temperature is high, then the recipe could use more freezing point suppression. Or if the temperature is low, it could use less freezing point suppression.

You can also use drawing temperature to get feedback about the recipe's whipability. A significant part of ice cream's texture is from whipped cream. This is the foam component. Conditions need to be right for the fats to whip properly. The mix needs to be aged at least several hours at a cold temperature for the fats to crystalize. There also needs to be adequate emulsifcation in the mix (if you're using any eggs at all, this takes care of it). Stabilizing ingredients tend to enhance whipability. So, if you get to the ideal drawing temperature and the ice cream hasn't gained the volume you'd like, this is a hint that the fats weren't properly crystalized, or that the mix is understabilized. If you have get too much volume, it can mean the mix is overstabilized.

Different machines also do more or less whipping, and if you use a Kitchen aid attachment, the variable speed can be used to adjust this.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I have a few questions for everyone who has tried the icecreamscience method.

Yesterday I tried to make the roasted hazelnut ice-cream on Ruben's website, BUT I only cooked the custard for about 40 minutes (my patience ran out at this point, sorry). Also, I did NOT age it overnight in the fridge, just cooled it in the ice-bath, and started churning it when it got really cold. I have the Cuisinart ICE-20 (with the 2-quart bowl), and I used a hazelnut paste from Cacao Barry.

The flavour is great, and in the mouth it melts smoothly, without leaving a heavy film on the palate, like some of Jeni's recipes do. However, when it was done churning, it looked... grainy, sandy?! Not even sure if this is the right word for it, as I have never experienced a texture like this, although I have made ice-cream many, many times using the custard method.

So here is a pic I took today, after the ice-cream has had a night in my (-18C) freezer.

photo (2).JPG

Where I scoop, it looks smooth, but the top still has that grainy look. I know that when you don't follow a formula, you're asking for trouble, I just would like to know your thoughts on what may have caused this texture. Again, the taste is everything I like about ice-cream, but the look... not quite.

Thanks in advance for any help!

I have not tried making hazelnut, but I wonder if the surface texture could have been due to the ground nuts?

I can understand your patience running out after forty minutes! Many a night my patience has been sorely tried, not to mention my poor feet. The extra twenty minutes might have made an improvement, but I suspect a bigger contribution to the final result would have been to let the mix age over night. An interesting experiment might be to divide a double recipe of mix into two portions. Freeze one half immediately and the other half after a day in the refrigerator.