The ethics of stealing bags (and containers)

[Edward J]

For the record, based on a very quick internet search, produce bags cost in the area of $.005 each.

Using rough 2006 figures:

Average weekly customer count for a medium size supermarket - 12,000

Assume one out of ten customers takes 5 bags Weekly cost to market, $30

$30 per week is $1,500 a year.

$1,500 at $10 hourly wage, is 150 hours or the cost of one employee for almost four weeks.

Average weekly sales - $330,000

$30/wk is .01 percent of sales

Average supermarket profit 1.5% of sales

Mmm.. that might explain my lack of, uh, "enthusiasm" to entertain the l;arge chain's demands for local suppliers.

I do supply chocoaltes and confections to smaller grocers and retailers, but not the larger ones, for the following reasons:

The larger ones want from me:

-minimum of 35% markup

-vendor to provide at least 12 hrs of in-store "promotion" per week

-vendor to stock shelves

-vendor to supply display units

-vendor to present acct. dept with monthly invoice

-90 days payment terms

Needless to say I don't "do" the larger chains, but many do, although they might negotiate better terms. These include bread suppliers, dairy, soft drinks, potato chips/snacks, confections/chocolate, and many branded dry goods.

Produce is another story, and I understand that this is a high cost sector with higher labour and wastage, as is the deli, butchery, and bakery.

But still....

[Toliver]

But, along the same lines: when I break off the stems of shiitake mushrooms and put just the caps in the bag, leaving the stems behind: no big deal or evil incarnate?

I was in the produce section of my local grocery store and watched as a woman picked out the pineapple she wanted then proceded to twist off the crown of leaves and left it behind. It shocked me, to say the least.

Mushroom stems...pineapple crowns...what's next?

Perhaps taking a few extra produce bags may not be the biggest crime performed in the produce section.

As for using the eco-friendly reuseable bags to tote your groceries home...maybe not such a good idea:

Problems With Reusable Shopping Bags

Large numbers of bacteria were found in almost all bags and coliform in half. E. coli were identified in 12% of the bags and a wide range of entire bacteria, including several opportunistic pathogens. When meat juices were added to bags and stored in the trunks of cars for two hours the number of bacteria increased 10-fold indicating the potential for bacterial growth in the bags.

Many reusable grocery bags contain almost seven times the lead limit set by many states.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[greenbean]

Since I also take grocery store produce bags, my ethical stand is obvious, but I will offer a good use for them. A number of years ago, while reading a cookbook, the author suggested using these bags for rolling out pastry doughs. The bags are foodsafe and because they are non-stick, you don't have to add extra flour to pie crusts, butter cookies, rugulach, biscuits, etc. They also make clean up easy (but I will fold them up and reuse them if I can). I especially like the ones from the meat dept. at Costco because they are larger and thicker than standard produce bags. I bake regularly so I keep a supply in my cabinet at all times. I guess I justify taking them because I bring my own bags for regular groceries.

[pastrygirl]

Chris, I find the mushroom move shocking. Just sayin'.

I know! I can't believe I do it.

Unfair and in a way stealing (trying to come up with a softer word). The mushrooms are sold "as is." The supermarket paid for whole mushrooms, not caps, and based their pricing on customers purchasing whole mushrooms. By leaving the relatively unsellable stems, the market will either lose money or build it into everyone's pricing.

I know. See above.

Ethically, would you do the same in front of the farmer at a farmer's market?

Probably not. You think I should stop teaching my kids to do it?

I used to think you seemed smart and reasonable. I'm so disappointed in you now. Why aren't you saving your mushroom stems for stock or drying them and grinding them into powder? Throwing away perfectly good mushroom stems, leaving your litter for someone else to clean up, who are you?

I think what bothers me about things like taking bags but especially grazing is the selfish, entitled, opportunistic attitude. I want it, so I'm just going to take it, and take as much as I can, because I want it, and I'm special and deserve whatever I want. If it's small enough to fit in my mouth in one bite, its not stealing. It's easy, so that makes it OK. What??? You need to try a grape or cherry or bean before buying? How do you ever commit to buying a watermelon without taking a core sample to see how sweet it is? Do you open clamshells of berries to sample them or only loose, unwrapped items? If it's good, do you then buy that clamshell or put it back and buy a full one? How do you ever try a new flavor of chips or beer? Or anything new? You take chances, you win some, you lose some. Deal with it. The grocery store is a business, not a free buffet.

And Fat Guy may wish to invest in some tupperware or semidisposable but recyclable gladware for his wife's fruit and parchment or waxed paper for his son's sandwiches. Reuseable and compostable, respectively. Seriously, how is appropriating a bunch of flimsy bags from a retailer then throwing them away day after day good for anyone? I mean, except you.

Me, me, me; consume, consume, consume; let the little people pick up the pieces (or is that doing your part for the economy by creating jobs?) and pay the costs. Ain't that America.

[Chris Amirault]

I used to think you seemed smart and reasonable. I'm so disappointed in you now. Why aren't you saving your mushroom stems for stock or drying them and grinding them into powder? Throwing away perfectly good mushroom stems, leaving your litter for someone else to clean up, who are you?

Well, I'm still me.

Lookit: I 'fessed up largely because I, too, can't quite believe I do it. The first step to reform is recognition, right?

Sure, I've got to do some self-reflection in the produce aisle. I doubt I'll ever do it again, actually. However, I still bet that pound of bacon that nearly everyone does something like this. pastrygirl, you don't take two samples sometimes when the sign says "one only"? Or allow the cashier to charge you for industrial when you bought organic? Or...?

[JasonW]

I honestly did not expect this thread to get so interesting. A very interesting question that after 5 pages I am still certain I do not know how I feel about it.

In the first two pages, I was unsure, but leaned towards it being stealing. These bags are here for an implied purpose: to carry your produce to your home. Yes, they are offered free of charge - but free of charge for that purpose.

When FG discovered they were provided free to the supermarket because the manufacturer of these bags advertise on them, a very significant point changed for me. As soon as something is an ad, its primary purpose becomes exposure and distribution. The ads are on free plastic bags precisely because they have value to FG (dog poop, garbage bag, etc) as well as the manufacturer (you carry it around, hang them up in your kitchen, etc).

To me, the implied purpose is much more than just carrying the broccoli to your car now.

[kitchensqueen]

However, I still bet that pound of bacon that nearly everyone does something like this. pastrygirl, you don't take two samples sometimes when the sign says "one only"? Or allow the cashier to charge you for industrial when you bought organic? Or...?

I don't do stuff like this... I don't take more than one sample, I don't graze through the grocery store (because it's not mine because I haven't purchased it yet), I don't stockpile condiments at restaurants, I don't overlook price errors (even when they're in my favor)...

I'll see your pound of bacon and raise you one, that there are a whole lot of people out there who don't take advantage just because something is "free" or available.

[pastrygirl]

Well, I'm still me.

Lookit: I 'fessed up largely because I, too, can't quite believe I do it. The first step to reform is recognition, right?

Sure, I've got to do some self-reflection in the produce aisle. I doubt I'll ever do it again, actually. However, I still bet that pound of bacon that nearly everyone does something like this. pastrygirl, you don't take two samples sometimes when the sign says "one only"? Or allow the cashier to charge you for industrial when you bought organic? Or...?

Glad you have admitted the problem and are on your way to recovery.

I'm probably not without sin either. I honestly do not ever graze on produce or snack from the bulk bins. It may have happened that I've sampled twice instead of once, but not often. I do look for the BIGGEST cheese cube sample, and will sample a cheese again even if it was the same cheese being sampled last time I shopped. (My local store almost always has two samples in the cheese area, one at the meat counter, and two or three other locations for chips or cookies samples). Probably have let an error in my favor slip by...damn it! And don't worry, I know I am a hypocrite in other ways - driving solo to work every day and not buying organic but claiming to care about my carbon footprint and the environment.

Some people seem to be actively looking for ways to take advantage of whatever they can take advantage of. That, and people's grubby spittle covered fingers groping through the fruit make me lose hope. And sometimes my appetite.

[annabelle]

Come sit by me, Chris. I usually let my son select a donut from the bakery case when he goes shopping with me and half the time I forget to pay for it.

[Chris Amirault]

Do you forget or "forget"?

[annabelle]

I forget. I have actually gone back in and paid when I remembered.

[Edward J]

5 Pages and still going strong.

One point ot ponder on, the flimsy produce bags serve two purposes: Yes the cutomer has a bag for his/her stuff, but more importantly for the grocer, it makes check-outs much faster. Prouce is sold by weight, and grabbing a bag or, say, oranges takes second, as opposed to rooting through a pile of vegetables, selecting only the tomatoes, then the shallots, then the...

Samples, for me is another story. Spend too many long days at trade shows giving away samples, and swore that I would neve accept a sample about 5 years ago.

[Holly Moore]

So many souls being bared in this thead. Tis a pity eGullet doesn't have the power to grant absolution.

[Panaderia Canadiense]

Why not? There must be a Pope of Rum around here somewhere who can grant us absolution for our supermarket sins....

[BeatriceB]

I do agree with the person above who said that FG started this topic, seemingly asking a question, just to bat every single objection off. Don't ask a question if you don't want to hear the answer.

As to the "theft" of produce bags. The initial question in itself set up a strawman. The initial question asked about the ETHICS of this behavior, not the legality, yet the conversation kept being steered into legal channels. Unless someone here is an experienced criminal defense attorney, or wants to get on Westlaw and do the relevant research, none of us knows the legal conclusion here. Especially as it probably varies by jurisdiction.

As to the ethics, which was in fact the question posed. I think it is appallingly unethical to take any bags beyond the ones you need to safely and convieniently transport the produce you are buying from the produce aisle to your home. And I find the assumption you make that everyone does this kind of thing depressing and, I believe, inaccurate. I certainly don't.

To sum up some of the fine points made above (although most of this should really be obvious to any thinking person):

1. One way or another, these things cost money. You assert that you aren't really costing the store any money because you don't take that many and because the advertisers actually pay for them:

This is the most obvious and grotesque free rider problem I've ever seen and you should know better. First of all, you admit to taking many of these bags for many purposes, not just a few every now and then, so the "no big deal" point is just BS. Second, yeah, you love using these bags to pick up dog poo, wrap sandwiches, carry fruit, etc. and seem to be proud of using up to three a day. That is nothing to be proud of. That is something to be ashamed of. That shows that you are stealing something of actual value on a weekly basis from a place that has at least a half-aisle of products created for the exact same purpose being sold for actual money just feet away. So, what if WE ALL DID THIS? How long would the "free" bags last? My winter cabin needs insulation, a whole bunch of plastic bags might work ...

2. You like to talk about "implied consent." We aren't (per your topic) talking about law here, but ethics. I think we all know exactly what the real implied consent here is. It is to take the number of bags you think necessary to keep your produce clean/unbruised/unsquished/etc until it gets from the produce dept to your kitchen. Sure, use your judgment on that, but (and you asked for ethics, not law), you know when you are bullshitting yourself.

3. This idea that it is OK because they are cheap or you don't take many (though it appears that you do take many) is nonsense. You asked an ethical question, and I don't care about the line between petty and grand larceny (which varies by jurisdiction; and petty larceny still carries penalties). Ethically, you are stealing and it is a nasty, greedy, rude thing to do (to paraphrase someone above). It is costing the store money, it is costing your fellow customers money, and as someone else pointed out above, is most likely to end in no produce bags at all, so we'll all have to bring our own, pay for them, or specially request them. I don't care if it makes you a thief; it definitely makes you a jerk.

Edited May 27, 2011 by BeatriceB (log)

[Arey]

Medieval theologians would have enjoyed this topic. It's become the egullet equivalent of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Only now it's how many plastic produce bags can you take before it's theft, how many free samples can you take before it's gluttony or greed, and how many shitake stems can you break off and discard before it's.... (I can't figure out which produce shopping sin this is, but it must be one). I would ocasionally take a produce bag at the produce store and put it in my pocket to use at my fishmongers, but I always told the cashier at the produce store I had done it, and she would always say it was alright, but when I think about it. she really wasn't in a position to excuse (should I say absolve) what I had done. I shall spend the remainder of this evening reading The Divine Comedy to determine exactly where my grocery shopping sins where will get me. I've always sort of hoped I'd end up at the lust level. But it's not likely unless my passion for cheese counts as lust. AND I WILL NEVER AGAIN TAKE A PRODUCE BAG AT THE PRODUCE STORE WITHOUT PUTTING PRODUCE IN IT.

[Fat Guy]

Don't ask a question if you don't want to hear the answer.

So, don't ask a question unless you're willing to accept every absolutist, Manichean, poorly reasoned answer that comes your way?

Unless someone here is an experienced criminal defense attorney

I practiced at one of the leading white-collar criminal-defense firms, and also worked for a federal judge. I can tell you with reasonably good authority that there is no actionable offense here. I'd love to see the grand jury on this one.

Whether there is an ethical transgression is still an open question. As I've read the various arguments supposedly based on ethics, I've come to feel better and better -- from an ethical standpoint -- about taking a few extra produce bags each time I go shopping. I think those who are getting all exorcised about the practice may want to examine their own motivations rather than mine. Mine are not all that complex or interesting. But when I tell people in the outside world that this is the big eG Forums controversy of the moment, they thing it's pretty funny.

[BeatriceB]

Yes, I'm sure you know all about petty thievery. But as I said, I don't think that was the question you posed, so why do you keep bringing it up?

As I've read the various arguments supposedly based on ethics, I've come to feel better and better -- from an ethical standpoint -- about taking a few extra produce bags each time I go shopping. I think those who are getting all exorcised about the practice may want to examine their own motivations rather than mine. Mine are not all that complex or interesting.

That's a comfortable and transparent way to dismiss any objections to the behavior you presented for criticism: Anyone who doesn't like it is hysterical and has their own problems, and therefore isn't entitled to examine mine. Even though you started an entire thread asking for critical commentary on this behavior. Weak. And potentially far worse.

[Holly Moore]

I doubt that Manichean pronouncements work in this situation. I'd bet a pound of bacon that that most of us nibble a cherry, grab an extra produce bag, or somesuch now and then in grocery stores.

So, don't ask a question unless you're willing to accept every absolutist, Manichean, poorly reasoned answer that comes your way?

Manichean? Almost like it is a talking point.

I was a hotel/restaurant management major. Had to look Manichean up.

Of or relating to a dualistic view of the world, dividing things into either good or evil, light or dark, black or white, involving no shades of gray.

I don't believe the general tone of this thread, with perhaps a few exceptions, has declared plastic bag and grape absconders and mushroom stem off-snappers to be evil people or even unethical people. Rather opinion was expressed as to whether the acts were ethical. I doubt anyone is purely ethical, especially in other peoples' eyes.

I also looked up the definition of poorly reasoned:

Someone who doesn't agree with my way of thinking.

No questioning that.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Holly Moore (log)

[Mano]

Morally there's questionable transgression, but ethically I don't see any.

No one was harmed or lost money; the bags were free to begin with.

There's no need to ask:

"What if everyone did it?" (Not everyone does and if they did then the store would have some sort of a policy).

"If you take the bags, what will you be taking next?" (Taking bags -even if they weren't free- isn't an indicator for future criminal behavior).

Keep the behavior in context where it belongs.

Same with Chris Amarault. If the store catches him ruining the mushrooms he may get anything from a wry smile to handcuffed because it is actionable. In that case he'll wonder, "What the hell did I get myself into?" Staying in context, he's the pettiest of thieves and an a**hole, at least when he mangles the mushrooms. In other contexts he may be a great guy and straight arrow.

For those of you who believe yourselves to be pure of heart and action, the fact is honest people do dishonest things every once in a while.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Mano (log)

[Chris Amirault]

Not me. Once I clear up this shiitake thing, it's smooth sailing to St. Peter's gates.

[Mano]

I doubt it. Muffin tops are calling, "Take me, Chris. Leave the bottoms behind!"

[gfweb]

Don't ask a question if you don't want to hear the answer.

So, don't ask a question unless you're willing to accept every absolutist, Manichean, poorly reasoned answer that comes your way?

Unless someone here is an experienced criminal defense attorney

I practiced at one of the leading white-collar criminal-defense firms, and also worked for a federal judge. I can tell you with reasonably good authority that there is no actionable offense here. I'd love to see the grand jury on this one.

Whether there is an ethical transgression is still an open question. As I've read the various arguments supposedly based on ethics, I've come to feel better and better -- from an ethical standpoint -- about taking a few extra produce bags each time I go shopping. I think those who are getting all exorcised about the practice may want to examine their own motivations rather than mine. Mine are not all that complex or interesting. But when I tell people in the outside world that this is the big eG Forums controversy of the moment, they thing it's pretty funny.

So disagreeing with you is poorly reasoned and absolutist? Yeah right.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[IndyRob]

As to the ethics, which was in fact the question posed. I think it is appallingly unethical to take any bags beyond the ones you need to safely and convieniently transport the produce you are buying from the produce aisle to your home.

Appalling? Really? 'Unethical' I could get on board with. Entitlement-minded? Yeah, I might jump on that tram. But Appallingly unethical?, Um no, I'm not riding on that train.

[Fat Guy]

Thought some of you might be interested in a photo of the stolen-bag collection:

By the way, while I won't bother correcting every anger-induced false assumption here, I do feel it's worth addressing the occasional one.

For example, as any reader of the Bentos topic knows, when I pack school lunch for my son I pack in reusable containers and even include a cloth napkin. However, there are many occasions on which it's still necessary to use a bag. For example, on days when there are field trips (due to his school's very progressive curriculum, this happens a lot), the rule is that you have to pack a 100% disposable lunch. So one is limited to a choice among different kinds of packaging all of which will wind up in the trash after lunch. I think there's a good argument that the thinnest, lightest plastic bag is the least wasteful solution in that instance.

When possible, we use a bag more than once -- if it comes back to us. We also have plastic-bag recycling in New York City, as I already mentioned.

I do by the way have a full inventory of zipper bags in five sizes. But I'd rather use a thin, light bag where possible. It's better environmentally and it's cheaper for me. I have paper lunch bags too -- there's an open question whether paper or plastic is better. Not that any of this environmental talk matters much when weighed against the environmental destructiveness of, say, commuting to work by car every day or having a charcoal grill -- things people in New York City pretty much never do.