Pressure Cookers: 2011 and beyond

[Martin Fisher]

That's scandalous!

[Martin Fisher]

I've been using the hawkins models stainless stell PCs for years now, I've never tried anything else. It seems like the favorites mentioned in this thread are so much more expensive. I'm wondering if anyone else out there can compare the hawkins to some of the fancier ones... I'm just wondering what I'm missing out on if anything, as I PC daily and any improvement is always welcome.

Thanks & Happy New Years!

No, I don't think that you're missing out on anything.

From a practical and utilitarian standpoint a Hawkins is an excellent value.

If you're as comfortable with Hawkins as I am, there's really no good reason to go "fancy."

Another plus: All Hawkins stainless steel pressure cookers made since April 2011 are induction compatible.

Edited November 8, 2013 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I want to make it crystal clear that I'm not holding anything against ATK or Fissler.

I personally reported chipping and splitting handles directly to Fissler in 2012 - for their new model someone wrote an amazon review and posted photos of their handles chipping and breaking.

Both in this forum and on amazon reviews customers reported getting the wrong manual with the pressure cooker, earlier a participant also even quoted an email to customer support.

The Fissler U.S. manual states, and Fissler product manager confirmed, to me personally the U.S. Vitaquick pressure cooker operates at 60kpa.

As far as America's Test Kitchen is concerned, they reported measuring a pressure cooker reaching a temperature level that is not technically possible given the information the manufacturer themselves has published about that pressure cooker. You can calculate if this information is correct yourself by plugging in 60kpa into the Atonine equation and working out the temperature it equates to.

I do fault ATK for putting out a cookbook with cooking times that are vastly different from those that have been published and tested elsewhere. I am not the first or only critic of their reviews another pressure cooker expert published an entire article about the flaws of ATK's reviews when they published them 1996.

I have open, up-front and completely honest and transparent in my interactions here and elsewhere - my username is my real last name. I have nothing to hide and no official cookbook to sell until mine is published next year.

One reason I do not fully trust Cook's Illustrated is that they seldom list their methods. Just how did they measure 253 degrees for the Fissler? I decided to do my own experiment while cooking up some oatmeal and tomato sauce tonight. For measuring temperature I used a Thermax 06SMCMRNGL4C02PK 6 level irreversible temperature indicator on the lid of the jar of tomato sauce. Each level will record if its temperature has been reached or exceeded, accurate to +/- 1 deg C.

The particular Thermax I used has indicators for 99/210, 104/219. 110/230, 116/241, 121/250, and 127/261 deg C/F. All indicators up to and including 121/250 tripped. The 127/261 indicator did not.

Thus I conclude my Fissler reached at least 120 deg C (248 deg F). It may have reached 253 deg F, but I do not have the technology for measuring.

If you are wondering, dinner tonight is pasta e ceci.

[pazzaglia]

One reason I do not fully trust Cook's Illustrated is that they seldom list their methods. Just how did they measure 253 degrees for the Fissler? I decided to do my own experiment while cooking up some oatmeal and tomato sauce tonight. For measuring temperature I used a Thermax 06SMCMRNGL4C02PK 6 level irreversible temperature indicator on the lid of the jar of tomato sauce. Each level will record if its temperature has been reached or exceeded, accurate to +/- 1 deg C.

The particular Thermax I used has indicators for 99/210, 104/219. 110/230, 116/241, 121/250, and 127/261 deg C/F. All indicators up to and including 121/250 tripped. The 127/261 indicator did not.

Thus I conclude my Fissler reached at least 120 deg C (248 deg F). It may have reached 253 deg F, but I do not have the technology for measuring.

If you are wondering, dinner tonight is pasta e ceci.

That's a very creative set-up Jo, but a jar and lid can conduct heat directly from the base of the cooker. Even if the jar is on a trivet the heat will come from the trivet/steamer basket, to the jar, and lid.

ATK's video about the reviews very briefly flashed a remote logging thermometer. Though they were talking about stove top pressure cookers, they showed a sine graph that could only be achieved in an Electric cooker -looks better on camera than a line going straight up and flat. There is no information written or recorded on HOW they used that thermometer for their tests.

Shortly after they published their reviews I wrote ATK and asked what methods they used for their tests and received no answer.

I have a remote logging thermometer (which measures temperatures every 10 seconds up to 125c), a sling that keeps the thermometer suspended in water without touching any heat-conducive elements, and developed a testing routine that includes calibration at 100C before the test begins.

A US Fissler Vitaquick just arrived at my door via express courier so as soon as time permits I will be doing my own measurements.

I'll gladly share my results and testing procedure here, in case anyone is interested in reading or re-producing them.

ATK has the veneer of respectability but talk to an alumnus and you get a different story. ATK rips- off recipes without attribution and in general is a bit shady.

Very interesting info!

Ciao,

L

[JoNorvelleWalker]

One reason I do not fully trust Cook's Illustrated is that they seldom list their methods. Just how did they measure 253 degrees for the Fissler? I decided to do my own experiment while cooking up some oatmeal and tomato sauce tonight. For measuring temperature I used a Thermax 06SMCMRNGL4C02PK 6 level irreversible temperature indicator on the lid of the jar of tomato sauce. Each level will record if its temperature has been reached or exceeded, accurate to +/- 1 deg C.

The particular Thermax I used has indicators for 99/210, 104/219. 110/230, 116/241, 121/250, and 127/261 deg C/F. All indicators up to and including 121/250 tripped. The 127/261 indicator did not.

Thus I conclude my Fissler reached at least 120 deg C (248 deg F). It may have reached 253 deg F, but I do not have the technology for measuring.

If you are wondering, dinner tonight is pasta e ceci.

That's a very creative set-up Jo, but a jar and lid can conduct heat directly from the base of the cooker. Even if the jar is on a trivet the heat will come from the trivet/steamer basket, to the jar, and lid.

ATK's video about the reviews very briefly flashed a remote logging thermometer. Though they were talking about stove top pressure cookers, they showed a sine graph that could only be achieved in an Electric cooker -looks better on camera than a line going straight up and flat. There is no information written or recorded on HOW they used that thermometer for their tests.

Shortly after they published their reviews I wrote ATK and asked what methods they used for their tests and received no answer.

I have a remote logging thermometer (which measures temperatures every 10 seconds up to 125c), a sling that keeps the thermometer suspended in water without touching any heat-conducive elements, and developed a testing routine that includes calibration at 100C before the test begins.

A US Fissler Vitaquick just arrived at my door via express courier so as soon as time permits I will be doing my own measurements.

I'll gladly share my results and testing procedure here, in case anyone is interested in reading or re-producing them.

ATK has the veneer of respectability but talk to an alumnus and you get a different story. ATK rips- off recipes without attribution and in general is a bit shady.

Very interesting info!

Ciao,

L

The jars were on the Fissler steamer insert. It's been many decades since I took thermodynamics, however I suspect conduction from the base of the cooker was negligible. If the jar lid and the Thermax were heating by conduction from the base, so would be the food in the jar. Please tell us more about the measuring equipment you use.

[pazzaglia]

The jars were on the Fissler steamer insert. It's been many decades since I took thermodynamics, however I suspect conduction from the base of the cooker was negligible. If the jar lid and the Thermax were heating by conduction from the base, so would be the food in the jar. Please tell us more about the measuring equipment you use.

Here is a chart that shows that stainless steel, pyrex glass and aluminum have a much higher conductivity than water:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-d_429.html

However, your test and set-up is a likely scenario of how ATK measured temperature in their pressure cookers. I don't know enough about chemistry to comment on whether the acidity of a tomato sauce could further influence conductivity.

I'm taking measurements of water under pressure because what interests me is the temperature at which the food cooks not the temperature of the pressure cooker base nor the steam above the food.

I'm in the middle of a big project now, but will post photos of the sling and, once tested, charts from the tests and my testing procedure when I get some free time.

In the meantime, here are the specs of my remote data logger:

http://www.lascarelectronics.com/temperaturedatalogger.php?datalogger=382

Ciao,

L

Edited November 11, 2013 by pazzaglia (log)

[simplycumin]

This is all very exciting. I feel like I'm about to read the final "reveal" of a mystery novel.

I got fed up with the uncertainty around the actual specs of the Fissler and got a 5L KR Top model on sale.

Shame on Fissler for allowing this situation to persist for so long. Maybe if the North American operations were run by Fissler itself (like KR does) instead of depending on one distributor, the situation would be a different.

[Earthlark]

This is all very exciting. I feel like I'm about to read the final "reveal" of a mystery novel.

Right on.

Like JoNorvelleWalker, after much research (but apparently not enough), I too finally decided on the large Fissler Quatro Set (and received it today), but after reading with some trepidation that it only gets up to 60 kPa, I have been trying to figure out if that is indeed the case, and if so, if I should send it back. So I'm looking forward to seeing the results!

[ojisan]

Shame on Fissler for allowing this situation to persist for so long. Maybe if the North American operations were run by Fissler itself (like KR does) instead of depending on one distributor, the situation would be a different.

Kuhn Rikon has the same policy - warranty is valid only if purchased from an authorized dealer:

Thank you for your inquiry. Our warranty will be valid if purchased from an authorized retailer; Amazon is one but their 3rd party vendors are not. If you want to provide name of the vendor you are looking to purchase it from, I can let you know if they have an account with us.

Regards,

Jill Stroup

Office Manager – Kuhn Rikon Corp.

Edited November 22, 2013 by ojisan (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Right on.

Like JoNorvelleWalker, after much research (but apparently not enough), I too finally decided on the large Fissler Quatro Set (and received it today), but after reading with some trepidation that it only gets up to 60 kPa, I have been trying to figure out if that is indeed the case, and if so, if I should send it back. So I'm looking forward to seeing the results!

I am still happy with my Fissler purchase. I am convinced the temperature of mine goes up to at least 250 deg F. I use mine a lot and cooked with it as recently as this afternoon. I wish they would just release a version of the lid rated at 15 PSI and be done with it (and give it to their long suffering US customers at no cost). If 60 kPa is when the second white bar begins to show, it does not bother me a bit, as long as not less than 15 PSI is when the relief valve opens.

Note for most pressure cooker recipes Modernist Cuisine calls for venting the pot at pressure for (if I remember correctly) 30 to 45 seconds to remove as much air as possible.

[Earthlark]

I wish they would just release a version of the lid rated at 15 PSI and be done with it (and give it to their long suffering US customers at no cost).

Ha, wouldn't that be nice... but...

If 60 kPa is when the second white bar begins to show...

Thanks for the update on your satisfaction level and the tip, Jo. I was kind of wondering if the 60 kPa was, as you said, just as the second white bar begins to show. However, seems like a long way to go from the first sliver of the white bar to a bit past it to get to 100 kPa, but maybe not... If their PC does reach "15 psi", it seems kind of crazy that Fissler wouldn't market a 15 psi-capable product as such, especially in the US. Maybe the US marketing team didn't do enough research? (Pazzaglia alluded to a lack of research before with regard the US team concluding that Americans would be confused by a dial-setting.) It'd be equally strange, though, if they created such a low-pressure model for the US market, unless it was for a niche market.

Hm, maybe the factory is on Zugspitze (the highest peak in Germany) and that's why their claimed pressure is so low. That would put 15 psi a bit closer to the 8.7 psi stated in the manual.

It's not much help since I don't have precise equipment (electric glass-top), but I got the same results as you guys doing the chick pea test. Took about 6.5 minutes for room temp water and pot to reach the second white ring. (Stove was warm, but not so much that one couldn't leave a hand on it.) Started 13-min timer. Vented for about 1.5 minutes as glass-top cooled, then sat about middle of the second white ring for the remainder of the 13 min. I released the pressure right away just to see if they would still be cooked. Turned out soft (not al-dente, not mushy). Anyway, like I said, though, pretty imprecise experiment.

Btw, just for kicks, I emailed the US branch (if for nothing more than to insinuate that there is a definite problem somewhere) and received the cookie-cutter response that ojisan received:

"The Vitaquick operates at 9-11 PSI on the low setting and 13-15 PSI on the high setting. At normal altitude, it would be 11 and 15. Cook's Illustrated and America's Test Kitchen recently tested all pressure cookers in the US and have found that only the Vitaquick actually reaches 15 PSI under pressure."

[pazzaglia]

OK, I got a chance to run the test this morning, and my findings are that the US Vitaquick’s operating pressure is consistent with what is printed in their manual 60kpa (8.7psi).

The maximum temperature achieved while operating the US Vitaquick cooker at high pressure during my test was 116.6C (about 240F) – just a tad higher than the US Fissler Vitaquick manual 's note that high pressure is "approx. 237F". My results differ from what America’s Test Kitchen reportedly achieved 250F (121.1C).

I’m posting all of data here, for you, but this (and other information I will gather later) will be the basis for an article to be published on the hip pressure cooking website.

Max Temp at High Pressure Matrix

I ran the test following the testing matrix I set-up for all pressure cookers – the only deviation from that matrix is that I used a different stand for the remote logging monitor because the one I developed and used with other cookers could not fit in the Vitaquick– the base was too narrow and the base of the sling stopped mid-way up the cooker.

The matrix is as follows:

-Submerge monitor with approx. 2cm of water and ensure it does not come in contact with the base, sides or any other conductive material (the monitor is in a cotton sling)

-Bring the contents of the cooker to a rolling boil (without pressure lid) and then boil for 10 minutes to calibrate the monitor and ensure it is working properly.

-Add pressure cooking lid and bring cooker up to high pressure according to the manufacturer’s instructions

-Maintain high pressure (without going into over-pressure) according to the manufactuer’s instructions for 15 minutes

-Open the cooker, cool down the monitor and download the logging data

Here’s a a photo documentary of the test (also includes raw test data worksheet):
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzgwNX-MdvL2Qy1IUHZlcHFZRW8&usp=sharing

Ciao,

L

Edited November 23, 2013 by pazzaglia (log)

[pazzaglia]

P.S. Here is a copy of the Fissler US Vitaquick manual:
http://www.hippressurecooking.com/fissler-vitaquick-pressure-cooker-manual-usa/

It was sent to me and uploaded with Fissler's permission.

[ojisan]

OK, I got a chance to run the test this morning, and my findings are that the US Vitaquick’s operating pressure is consistent with what is printed in their manual 60kpa (8.7psi).

Here’s a a photo documentary of the test (also includes raw test data worksheet):

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzgwNX-MdvL2Qy1IUHZlcHFZRW8&usp=sharing

Thanks, Laura! I'm looking forward to the results of KR tests for comparison. I'll monitor your website.

I note in the photos that to achieve max pressure, the entire blue ring is exposed. In actual use, is it recommended to take it to overpressure and then back off?

[pazzaglia]

I note in the photos that to achieve max pressure, the entire blue ring is exposed. In actual use, is it recommended to take it to overpressure and then back off?

Venting a spring-valve cooker is something that I learned from a Kuhn Rikon engineer that could be done with their pressure cookers to ensure ALL of the oxygen exits the cooker for niche uses - sterilization or canning - where maximum temperatures are important.

However, that is not recommended for daily use or even noted in the manufacturer's manual - because going into over-pressure is a safety feature. I personally do not recommend anyone do this and and then depend on secondary or, in some cases, tertiary safety systems to keep the pressure where it should be. The only exception would be if this action is recommended by the manufacturer (such as certain models from Fagor) or during the inevitable learning process. The Fissler manual does not recommend venting prior to pressure cooking.

It's important to note that today's high-quality pressure cookers already vent 90-95% of the oxygen when building pressure so that extra 5% will not make a significant difference in the cooking temperature.

During my test, the cooker did begin to vent, but that was just because it was my fist time using this cooker and I hadn't gotten the feel for the right heat to keep it at pressure. If you see from the temperature chart, I turned the heat down after building pressure but initially, it was not enough.

Ciao,

L

[Earthlark]

OK, I got a chance to run the test this morning, and my findings are that the US Vitaquick’s operating pressure is consistent with what is printed in their manual 60kpa (8.7psi).

Thanks so much for testing and sharing your results!

Here's another response from Fissler USA that I just received:

All of Fissler pressure cookers operate at an average of 10 PSI at 1st level (of the indicator) and at an average of 15 PSI at the 2nd level.

According to Fissler, if you let the 2nd level rise higher, the cooker will reach up to 18 PSI. Because the US does not allow such high heats, at that temperature/level, the steam will automatically be released from your cooker as a safety measure.

In the manual, it states the lowest PSI of the range.

The Vitaquick operates at 9-11 PSI on the low setting and 13-15 PSI on the high setting.

The maximum PSI on the second cooking setting is 15 PSI.

It baffles me how Fissler could get things so mixed up, especially as it seems (according to reviews) that they make some high quality products. But I suppose we're all entitled to mistakes once in a while. Still, I'd love to know why they engineered such a product for the US market (and then didn't communicate with the US branch the product specs). Or did they make some production error and then try to pass the cooker off as a 15 psi cooker? But then they wouldn't have written the specs in the manual. Well, if you ever solve the mystery, Laura, and feel like sharing...

As much of a bother as it is, given all the the info (Laura's tests, Fissler's intercompany confusion, and ATK's apparent lack of expertise with PKs), I think I'll have to send this one back and go with the WMF Perfect Plus set. I guess I'll have to rely on other means of cooking for Thanksgiving. Btw, that set happens to be on sale at the moment if anyone's interested--I suspect this is because they're out of stock... (It's less expensive than buying just the 8-1/2 quart PK individually.)

[Robenco15]

Hey all,

Typically my philosophy with cooking equipment is that bigger is better. I can always make less in a large vessel, but can never make more in a small vessel.

Is this a smart line of thinking for pressure cookers too? I only cook right now for myself and one other, but I'm more about thinking in the long term and not purchasing multiple things over the years. Buy one, buy the best, pay the most, and be done with it.

Anyway, this is the one I was thinking about - http://www.amazon.com/Kuhn-Rikon-Duromatic-2-Quart-Stockpot/dp/B00009A9XU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1385831057&sr=8-1&keywords=kuhn+rikon+duromatic+8-1+2-quart+stockpot

It calls it a 8 1/2 quart stockpot, but I'm pretty sure it is a pressure cooker. The name changes for each size.

Does anyone have any experience with this? Is it recommended? Is bigger better for pressure cookers? 8 and a half is the largest I'm going right now due to the size of my apartment.

Thanks for the opinions and help!

[ElsieD]

Hey all,

Typically my philosophy with cooking equipment is that bigger is better. I can always make less in a large vessel, but can never make more in a small vessel.

Is this a smart line of thinking for pressure cookers too? I only cook right now for myself and one other, but I'm more about thinking in the long term and not purchasing multiple things over the years. Buy one, buy the best, pay the most, and be done with it.

Anyway, this is the one I was thinking about - http://www.amazon.com/Kuhn-Rikon-Duromatic-2-Quart-Stockpot/dp/B00009A9XU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1385831057&sr=8-1&keywords=kuhn+rikon+duromatic+8-1+2-quart+stockpot

It calls it a 8 1/2 quart stockpot, but I'm pretty sure it is a pressure cooker. The name changes for each size.

Does anyone have any experience with this? Is it recommended? Is bigger better for pressure cookers? 8 and a half is the largest I'm going right now due to the size of my apartment.

Thanks for the opinions and help!

http://www.amazon.com/WMF-Perfect-Stainless-Pressure-Interchangeable/dp/B005EQK3IE/ref=sr_1_4?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1385833481&sr=1-4&keywords=wmf+pressure+cooker

This is the one I have and am very happy with it. If you get this set you get the best of both worlds.

[pazzaglia]

Does anyone have any experience with this? Is it recommended? Is bigger better for pressure cookers? 8 and a half is the largest I'm going right now due to the size of my apartment.

Thanks for the opinions and help!

Personally, I wouldn't go any larger - especially if you're cooking for just two. A few months ago, I wrote a little article to answer your "is bigger better" question. It explains the whats and why's along with a little chart that figures out how many servings of rice and soup you can get from each pressure cooker size:

Does pressure cooker size matter? Of course!

http://www.hippressurecooking.com/pressure-cooker-sizes-and-types/

I recommend my readers to start with a 6 or 8L pressure cookers (the one you linked to is 8L - so, you're in!). You can make 6 servings of rice or 16 cups of soup in that one. Of course, the nice thing is that you can also make less without adjustments since you can still get away with adding just a cup of cooking liquid for most recipes with that size.

You chose a nice shape, too. The pressure braisers are wide and have a larger browning area than your typical stockpot-shaped pressure cooker. You made an excellent choice!

Ciao,

L

Edited December 2, 2013 by pazzaglia (log)

[Dave W]

This is something I've been wondering about:

 

The extended duration high temperatures inside a pressure cooker environment effectively sterilize the contents of the pressure cooker over any reasonable cooking time. I assume that in thirty minutes at pressure, for example, all contents of the inside of the pressure cooker will have been heated to a sufficiently high temperature to kill any pathogens.

 

It would make my life easier if I could leave a pressure cooker lid on for natural release overnight at room temperature without worrying about the extended time the contents spend between 140F and 40F as it cools down. This saves me the hassle of cramming 10 lbs of boiling hot contents into the fridge or crash cooling and finishing my processing of the contents on the spot for refrigeration.

 

I know that as natural release or quick release occurs eventually when the cooker depressurizes the valve opens and some gases are exchanged. However the contents at this time would still be well above 140F and could therefore kill any pathogenic bacteria entering via the pressure cooker valve. It's possible that to some extent the valve will continue to "breathe" as pressure inside the vessel equalizes with the room.

 

Am I playing with food safety fire here to decline to refrigerate, for example, stock, if I leave the lid of the pressure cooker undisturbed for 12 hours? Or will the initial sterilization knock back bacterial populations to a level that's not of concern?

 

If it makes a difference I have a Fagor rapid express spring valve pressure cooker.

 

 

[Martin Fisher]

Definitely potentially very unsafe.

[Anna N]

Definitely potentially very unsafe.

I don't want to get into an argument because my expertise is nonexistent as it pertains to this subject. But I am curious as to why it's unsafe. I am not attempting to argue otherwise I just want an explanation so I can understand the science behind it. I know all about the danger zone between 40°F and 140°F. I know a fair bit about growing cultures. I am guessing that the answer has something to do with the fact that all bugs have not necessarily been killed at 15 psi for 30 minutes.

[Martin Fisher]

Yes, and even if the contents are sterile, there's no guarantee that they'll remain sterile because the pressure cooker doesn't remain sealed.

[Martin Fisher]

FWIW, a similar question was asked in the past.... http://forums.egullet.org/topic/145604-pressure-cooker-food-safety/

[Anna N]

FWIW, a similar question was asked in the past.... http://forums.egullet.org/topic/145604-pressure-cooker-food-safety/

Thanks. The earlier thread satisfied my thirst for knowledge.