Cornstarch in my Gelato/Ice Cream

[paulraphael]

A comment on Tri2cook's list ... all these ingredients have unique properties, as far as how they behave at different temperatures, the exact nature of the textures they produce, and their interdependencies with other ingredients. There may be two that are equally viable as an ice cream thickener/stabilizer, but you'll much prefer the results with one of them.

Also, some that are listed as excellent combinations are considered so because they're hyperadditive ... meaning that in combination they're more efficient than either one used alone. When you're making ice cream in small quantities, this can be a double edged sword, since most of these gums work in minute amounts anyhow. I'm ok with measuring 0.3 grams of something, but if I have to start measuring 0.03 grams, I'll be annoyed (and I'll be saving up for a new scale).

[Tri2Cook]

I'm ok with measuring 0.3 grams of something, but if I have to start measuring 0.03 grams, I'll be annoyed (and I'll be saving up for a new scale).

←

For working with most hydrocolloids, a scale that goes down to a hundredth of a gram is well worth the $50 - $60 you can get them for. Unless you do huge batch sizes, you'll be dealing in those sorts of numbers quite often.

[Tri2Cook]

carrageenan = kappa + iota for low fat bases, lambda for full fat bases

I do have a BA in ancient Greek going back many years, but don't know what the Greek alphabet is doing in this equation. 

←

There's nothing mysterious about it, just think of it in terms of varieties. If you grow Brandywine, San Marzano and Green Zebra tomatoes they're all tomatoes but each has it's own individual characteristics and will be best suited for a particular purpose. Sometimes combining a couple of varieties gives you the results you want, say a mix of Sungold and Black cherry tomatoes to get the sweet and tart thing happening.

The three carrageenan types produce different gel strengths and serve different purposes depending on application. Kappa is firm and brittle gelling, especially in the presence of potassium. Iota is soft and elastic gelling with it's strongest gel forming in the presence of calcium. They both require heat for proper hydration. Lambda is cold soluble but can be used in heated applications as well. It's very-soft/non gelling.

[Darienne]

There's nothing mysterious about it, just think of it in terms of varieties. If you grow Brandywine, San Marzano and Green Zebra tomatoes they're all tomatoes but each has it's own individual characteristics and will be best suited for a particular purpose. Sometimes combining a couple of varieties gives you the results you want, say a mix of Sungold and Black cherry tomatoes to get the sweet and tart thing happening.

The three carrageenan types produce different gel strengths and serve different purposes depending on application. Kappa is firm and brittle gelling, especially in the presence of potassium. Iota is soft and elastic gelling with it's strongest gel forming in the presence of calcium. They both require heat for proper hydration. Lambda is cold soluble but can be used in heated applications as well. It's very-soft/non gelling.

←

Thanks. That makes it clear.

[Darienne]

Just made the mixture for Pomegranate Gelato. In my own inimitable way, I did not read the recipe CAREFULLY before starting...just zipped through it...and then realized that it called for only 2 tablespoons of cornstarch to 3 1/2 cups of liquid: milk, cream, pomegranate juice, lemon juice & liqueur.

Gosh I thought. Surely that's not enough cornstarch. DL's Fleur de Lait calls for 3 tablespoons for 3 cups of liquid. As the mixture was cooling, I went back into my Gelato recipe folder and called up one recipe after another. So, although some of them called for 3 tablespoons of cornstarch, many called for only 2.

OK. So now we see if it will work or not. My gut instinct was telling me to reheat the mixture with another tablespoon of cornstarch, but my more investigative side said: nope, give it a chance. You'll eat it even if it doesn't come together.

I suppose I could also reheat and add cornstarch to it even after it's been in the ice cream maker???

[Tri2Cook]

The components in frozen desserts fit within ranges expressed as a percentage of the total base by weight. For example total milkfat = xx% - yy%, not just "it should be xx%". This applies to stabilizers and emulsifiers just as much as any other ingredient. So seeing varying amounts of a given ingredient (cornstarch in this case) for a similar amount of base is entirely possible without straying outside of an optimal range. I'd try the recipe as written the first time and make notes on any adjustments you find necessary for your taste for the next time.

[Darienne]

The components in frozen desserts fit within ranges expressed as a percentage of the total base by weight. For example total milkfat = xx% - yy%, not just "it should be xx%". This applies to stabilizers and emulsifiers just as much as any other ingredient. So seeing varying amounts of a given ingredient (cornstarch in this case) for a similar amount of base is entirely possible without straying outside of an optimal range. I'd try the recipe as written the first time and make notes on any adjustments you find necessary for your taste for the next time.

←

Thank you for the information. Truthfully, I have never cooked before by percentages...in fact, I spent most of my adult years cooking as little as possible. This obsession with cooking is still new to me and I have so much to learn with no background to fall back on. It will come...slowly...

My best bet currently is to do just what you suggest, try it as written, and then make notes. A longtime habit. And go back and reread all the information I can find on the topic.

[weinoo]

Two questions:

When I use a bit of a cornstarch slurry to thicken a sauce for say, a stir fry, if the leftovers are refrigerated, the sauce thins out dramatically overnight. So, doesn't the same thing happen when the ice cream base is refrigerated overnight?

Also, I don't understand why ice creams need stabilizers and emulsifiers...unless they're not going to be consumed within 24 - 48 hours, what's the point?

In this topic I started about non-custard based ice creams, I am finding that good cream + good milk + good flavorings = excellent ice cream. Great texture, mouth feel and flavor. Of course, I'm only producing a quart at a time, so it gets eaten before it can turn into anything funny, but does screwing around with all those various add-ins make that much sense to the home cook?

[Tri2Cook]

Viewed strictly as a shelf life issue, no. It's probably not worth it for small, quickly consumed batches. There are other benefits though... body, mouthfeel, resistance to thermal shock (temp changes from going in and out of the freezer), air retention (overrun), ice crystal control (size), preventing moisture migration, fat stabilization (preventing butter chunks during churning) and probably many more that I'm forgetting without my notes. Whether or not it's worth it really depends on whether or not you're happy with the results you get without it.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Tri2Cook (log)

[Sethro]

Also, I don't understand why ice creams need stabilizers and emulsifiers...unless they're not going to be consumed within 24 - 48 hours, what's the point?

In a restaurant service environment the ice creams will go on a non-stop rollercoaster ride of freeze/thaw, and the service freezer temperature will likely fluctuate wildly as well. I try to only spin one paco-beaker of any given flavor at a time, which is only like 20 quenelles max, and I will still have beakers get icy even WITH stabilizer.

It might be a matter of how sensitive you are to ice crystals. I will determine an ice cream to be un-serviceable when most customers wouldn't notice any imperfection at all. I am a perfectionist though.

I also totally prefer the texture of more stabilizer/less egg, and the flavor delivery is inarguably more clear. Eggs taste like eggs. Also yolks are yellow and a lot of other colors do not benefit at all form the addition of yellow.

It is to a large degree an issue of personal philosophy. I love the vanilla ice cream at the Modern which is stark white and has almost a chiboust texture indicative of stabilizer. I also love the vanilla ice cream at Otto which is yellow and super custardy and very classic.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Sethro (log)

[paulraphael]

Also, I don't understand why ice creams need stabilizers and emulsifiers...unless they're not going to be consumed within 24 - 48 hours, what's the point?

←

If you prefer the texture of philly style ice cream, and plan to eat it right away, and are happy to adjust your serving temperature to whatever suits any given ice cream recipe ... then you can get away with just milk, cream, and sugar.

But if you want additional control over texture, then you're going to be adding emulsifiers and stabilizers. Period. That's what the eggs are in French style ice cream. Emulsification, stabilization, texture modification.

I just don't happen to think eggs are the most elegant choice for this purpose, begause they taste like F'ing eggs! I don't want my ice cream to taste like cooked egg yolk.

Egg custard does create a wonderful texture. I haven't found a perfect substitute, so I minimize the eggs rather than eliminate them. I find that I don't taste them when there's only a couple per quart.

I make up the difference with minute amounts of hydrocolloids, which are able to modify texture without adding or diluting flavors. With this kind of combination, I can get the precise texture I want, without any flavor penalty. The resistance to deflation and ice crystal formation is just a fringe benefit.

Some other ingredients I use pretty religiously:

-nonfat dry milk. It lets you control the disolved solids, which influences the sense of body, and also the freezing point. A little bit helps keep the ice cream from being rock hard at normal serving temperature (6 to 10 degrees F).

-alcohol, either as vodka or as vanilla extract (which I make with vodka). Fine tunes freezing point without affecting body. May also intensify some volatile aromas.

-salt! Balances and intensifies most other flavors. I think it's criminal to leave it out of desserts. My ice creams have about 1/10 % salt by weight. Too little to notice; enough to make a difference.

Edited July 30, 2009 by paulraphael (log)

[Darienne]

Also, I don't understand why ice creams need stabilizers and emulsifiers...unless they're not going to be consumed within 24 - 48 hours, what's the point?

←

If you prefer the texture of philly style ice cream, and plan to eat it right away, and are happy to adjust your serving temperature to whatever suits any given ice cream recipe ... then you can get away with just milk, cream, and sugar.

But if you want additional control over texture, then you're going to be adding emulsifiers and stabilizers. Period. That's what the eggs are in French style ice cream. Emulsification, stabilization, texture modification.

I just don't happen to think eggs are the most elegant choice for this purpose, begause they taste like F'ing eggs! I don't want my ice cream to taste like cooked egg yolk.

Egg custard does create a wonderful texture. I haven't found a perfect substitute, so I minimize the eggs rather than eliminate them. I find that I don't taste them when there's only a couple per quart.

I make up the difference with minute amounts of hydrocolloids, which are able to modify texture without adding or diluting flavors. With this kind of combination, I can get the precise texture I want, without any flavor penalty. The resistance to deflation and ice crystal formation is just a fringe benefit.

Some other ingredients I use pretty religiously:

-nonfat dry milk. It lets you control the disolved solids, which influences the sense of body, and also the freezing point. A little bit helps keep the ice cream from being rock hard at normal serving temperature (6 to 10 degrees F).

-alcohol, either as vodka or as vanilla extract (which I make with vodka). Fine tunes freezing point without affecting body. May also intensify some volatile aromas.

-salt! Balances and intensifies most other flavors. I think it's criminal to leave it out of desserts. My ice creams have about 1/10 % salt by weight. Too little to notice; enough to make a difference.

←

Thanks as usual, for the excellent information Paul.

I googled 'hydrocolloids' to see just what they are...once again...and to get some examples of same. Found a download of many of the pages of the 6th edition of Marshall, Goff & Hartel and tried to read them...all before breakfast too. Heavy going for those of us who are becoming increasingly intellectually challenged...

[Darienne]

The components in frozen desserts fit within ranges expressed as a percentage of the total base by weight. For example total milkfat = xx% - yy%, not just "it should be xx%". This applies to stabilizers and emulsifiers just as much as any other ingredient. So seeing varying amounts of a given ingredient (cornstarch in this case) for a similar amount of base is entirely possible without straying outside of an optimal range. I'd try the recipe as written the first time and make notes on any adjustments you find necessary for your taste for the next time.

←

Thank you for the information. Truthfully, I have never cooked before by percentages...in fact, I spent most of my adult years cooking as little as possible. This obsession with cooking is still new to me and I have so much to learn with no background to fall back on. It will come...slowly...

My best bet currently is to do just what you suggest, try it as written, and then make notes. A longtime habit. And go back and reread all the information I can find on the topic.

←

To return to the Pomegranate Gelato:

Did the ice cream maker thing last night and it tasted delicious. This morning, it was still soft, softer than any other made so far. And that on...well, I couldn't help myself...on 2 tablespoons of cornstarch instead of the 1 1/2 it called for or the 3 I was wanting to use. One other adjustment I made, following as always the excellent advice of Paul, was to substitute a couple of tablespoons of corn syrup in the sugar amount called for. It called for a pinch of salt.

It called for liqueur. 1/3 cup in fact. Maybe that's why it is so soft. Not too soft, but any softer and it would be.

Next time I work in the milk solids according to Paul's formula: 25G/QT. Who knew? It certainly is more fun than writing reports.

[weinoo]

It called for liqueur.  1/3 cup in fact.  Maybe that's why it is so soft.  Not too soft, but any softer and it would be.

←

That's a lot of booze...I usually use about 1 or 2 T per quart, for flavor when necessary and for texture.

My ice cream or sorbet always has a pinch of salt.

I'm just not as maniacal as others, seeing as I'm a home cook.

Funny how no one ever seems to complain about my ice creams or sorbets - as a matter of fact, they usually ask for more .

[Darienne]

It called for liqueur.  1/3 cup in fact.  Maybe that's why it is so soft.  Not too soft, but any softer and it would be.

←

That's a lot of booze...I usually use about 1 or 2 T per quart, for flavor when necessary and for texture.

My ice cream or sorbet always has a pinch of salt.

I'm just not as maniacal as others, seeing as I'm a home cook.

Funny how no one ever seems to complain about my ice creams or sorbets - as a matter of fact, they usually ask for more .

←

You are completely correct. That is a LOT of booze. Could that be part of the yummy taste? I didn't realize that it contained so much liqueur until I was actually making it. I have a difficult time sometimes getting the recipe into my head before I use it. Bad, bad habit. Each time I castigate myself and tell myself to read and digest the recipe carefully before being in the middle of it. Obviously myself does not listen well.

I am not only a home cook, I am a 'late come to it in life' home cook. With no background in cooking. My Mother didn't like to cook. I came to my marriage being able to make a simple salad dressing and that was it. My DH taught me how to cook.

As for folks liking what one makes...even the mistakes are devoured with gusto!

[paulraphael]

I googled 'hydrocolloids' to see just what they are...

short answer ... anything that disolves in water and causes some kind of thickening.

If you've ever thickened gravy with flour, then believe it or not, you're an old hand with hydrocolloids. Cornstarch slurry, arrowroot, and gelatin are other examples.

The fancy name came into vogue when cooks started using less conventional varieties, and shopping at the chemistry supply stores. So when you hear someone mouthing off about hydrocolloids, there's a good chance they're using agar or alginate or xanthan or other kinds of gums and modified starches.

[paulraphael]

You are completely correct.  That is a LOT of booze.  Could that be part of the yummy taste?

Yes, alcohol is yummy ... but it's also antifreeze. The right amount can give an especially soft, scoopable texture. Too much gives you soup. It depends on the proof of the booze you use. For instance, you can use much more liqueur than you could rum or brandy.

[Tri2Cook]

So when you hear someone mouthing off about hydrocolloids, there's a good chance they're using agar or alginate or xanthan or other kinds of gums and modified starches.

←

I realize you weren't being insulting but, just out of curiosity, why would using the correct name for something be considered "mouthing off"? "Hydrocolloids" is simply a name for a category of ingredients, no different than "sweeteners". It's just a word used to refer to a wide range of ingredients that serve a common purpose.

[Darienne]

short answer ... anything that dissolves in water and causes some kind of thickening.

If you've ever thickened gravy with flour, then believe it or not, you're an old hand with hydrocolloids. Cornstarch slurry, arrowroot, and gelatin are other examples.

The fancy name came into vogue when cooks started using less conventional varieties, and shopping at the chemistry supply stores. So when you hear someone mouthing off about hydrocolloids, there's a good chance they're using agar or alginate or xanthan or other kinds of gums and modified starches.

←

OK. I like that definition. I can comprehend it with having to sit in a darkened silent room. Plain simple language. Understandable example.

Now, Paul, my Ice Cream mentor (along with Jon), please do the same for stabilizer and emulsifier.

And I take it that one ingredient can be both stabilizer and hydrocolloid? Marshall lists under stabilizers: "cellulose gum (the primary hydrocolloid)...polysorbate 80 (the emulsifiers)". Do any familiar ingredients play that role? You know, stuff like cornstarch, cream, etc.

Thanks.

[paulraphael]

I ealize you weren't being insulting but, just out of curiosity, why would using the correct name for something be considered "mouthing off"?

I was making fun of myself ... thought I was the first one to use the big word in this discussion

Just acknowledging that when I say things like 'hydrocolloid,' some people start running for the door.

[paulraphael]

Stabilizer and emulsifier describe the roles of certain ingredients.

Emulsifiers are chemicals that help dispersions of oil and water hold together. In milk and cream and butter, the proteins in the milk solids act as emulsifiers. They aren't very strong, so it's easy for Philly style ice cream to separate and get grainy. In French style ice cream, proteins in the eggs act as powerful emulsifiers (just as they do in mayonnaise and caesar salad dressing). Gelatin and mustard also work as emusifiers. So do chemicals like soy lecithin and polysorbate 80 and all kinds of other things you see on food labels.

Stabilizers, narrowly speaking, are chemicals that keep big ice crystals from forming in the ice cream ... when it's churning, hardening, or being stored. They work by thickening whatever portion of the water is unfrozen. And there's always some percentage of unfrozen water in an ice cream. This is why it's scoopable, and not rock hard.

Because of the way they work, stabilizers also modify the texture. We typically use hydrocolloids for stabilizing ... including cooked egg proteins, gelatin, cornstarch, or gums. And these all affect the mouthfeel of the ice cream in different ways.

For ice cream made at home or by a pastry chef, I think the texture modification qualities of these chemicals are more important than the stabilizing qualities. But we still call them stabilizers.

Edited July 30, 2009 by paulraphael (log)

[Darienne]

Stabilizer and emulsifier describe the roles of certain ingredients.

Emulsifiers are chemicals that help dispersions of oil and water hold together. In milk and cream and butter, the proteins in the milk solids act as emulsifiers. They aren't very strong, so it's easy for Philly style ice cream to separate and get grainy. In French style ice cream, proteins in the eggs act as powerful emulsifiers (just as they do in mayonnaise and caesar salad dressing). Gelatin and mustard also work as emusifiers. So do chemicals like soy lecithin and polysorbate 80 and all kinds of other things you see on food labels.

Stabilizers, narrowly speaking,  are chemicals that keep big ice crystals from forming in the ice cream ... when it's churning, hardening, or being stored. They work by thickening whatever portion of the water is unfrozen. And there's always some percentage of unfrozen water in an ice cream. This is why it's scoopable, and not rock hard.

Because of the way they work, stabilizers also modify the texture. We typically use hydrocolloids for stabilizing ... including cooked egg proteins, gelatin, cornstarch, or gums. And these all affect the mouthfeel of the ice cream in different ways.

For ice cream made at home or by a pastry chef, I think the texture modification qualities of these chemicals are more important than the stabilizing qualities. But we still call them stabilizers.

←

Many thanks, kind sir.

[Darienne]

I know, I know, it's a bit early to be thinking of ice cream, but I found this wondrous recipe for Lebanese Milk Ice Cream which includes both rose and orange water. I really need to make it and soon. It was on 'Always Order Dessert' a blog.

I found a few interesting ice cream blogs the other day: The Ice Cream Fellow, Scoopalicious, Japanese Ice Cream, Ice Cream Geek Blog (well, haven't been there yet), and The Ice Cream Forum. No doubt there are dozens of others.

[Darienne]

The Lebanese Milk Ice Cream is made...well, sort of, but it is delicious. Instead of milk and heavy cream, I used full-fat and half-fat coconut milk. I had rose water, but no orange blossom water, so I used orange zest. And instead of sprinkling the pistachios on top, I mixed them in. Of course, I always add PaulRaphael's additions: corn syrup and a dash of salt.

Very good.

Brought to mind using this coconut milk base for the ricotta ice cream recipe that I found...oops...photocopied the one page out of a now unknown Italian cookbook. The inclusions are basically those of nougat and it is SOOO good and so colorful. Oh, nougat and then some. I made it at Thanksgiving and Christmas and it was well received in the extreme.