Chicken Stock

[Suzanne F]

Not for that reason My mother always used what she called "root parsley" -- which I think was actually parsnip -- and so did my mother-in-law. And dill.

What I, and I think a lot of the others, have been talking about is a basic, fairly neutral stock that can be "doctored" in any way you like, later. If you like yours with that added flavor, fine. It's really all in what YOU like, anyway.

[Dave the Cook]

"Deglazing" means: after you take the stuff out of the pot, pour in a little liquid and scrape up the browned bits from the bottom of the pan (called the "fond").  Keep scraping those bits up into the liquid as it boils.  As long as the fond isn't burned, it has a ton of flavor -- after all, it's the concentrated juices from the veg and chix.  Plus this makes it MUCH easier to clean the pan later.  

I'll bet you've been doing this all your life; but now you know what it's called.  

If you don't mind, Suzanne, a slight amplification:

You don't necessarily have to get everything out of the pot, although that's the way this recipe works. But if you're doing a pot roast, after searing the meat, you typically sauté the mirepoix. In that case, the vegetables usually have enough water in them to deglaze without going to the trouble of a separate step. If not, you can always add a little liquid after the mirepoix is ready (but not before, or the mirepoix will just steam), and finish the deglazing then.

[Suzanne F]

If you don't mind, Suzanne, a slight amplification:

You don't necessarily have to get everything out of the pot, although that's the way this recipe works. But if you're doing a pot roast, after searing the meat, you typically sauté the mirepoix. In that case, the vegetables usually have enough water in them to deglaze without going to the trouble of a separate step. If not, you can always add a little liquid after the mirepoix is ready (but not before, or the mirepoix will just steam), and finish the deglazing then.

Don't mind a bit. I was just explaining it in the context of your instructions here.

1. Hack the chicken into 2-inch (50 mm) pieces. Chop the onion medium.

2. Sauté the onion in a little oil until tender. Remove.

3. Sauté the chicken parts in a little oil until they are no longer pink. Remove.

4. Deglaze the pan with a little water or wine, or a combination.

At any rate, I usually DO remove the food from the pan before I deglaze; I find it easier to work with the fond that way. And of course if I'm making a pan sauce for a sauté, how else? But you're right, for dishes that get further cooking, it's not a necessity.

[Nick]

With the admissions in the potato salad thread of so much use of Hellman's and Miracle Whip, I now admit to using "Better Than Bullion" chicken base for the last few months. It's not too bad.

Before you recoil in horror, remember that I'm only a home cook and usually only make stocks in the winter when my wood range is going.

[Sandra Levine]

SuzanneF -- parsley root is not the same as parsnip, which is larger and much sweeter. It's not that easy to find, but when you use it, it does add that certain je ne sais quoi to Jewish-style chicken soups.

[Jonathan Day]

Not much has been said about where to get chickens for stock. I've had great success with so-called "boiling" chickens, from a Halal (Islamic equivalent of kosher) butcher. If you buy two chickens at a time and cut them up yourself, they cost £1 apiece -- this includes the heads and the feet. They are scrawny birds, mostly bones and feet and beaks, but they make great stock.

I use a different cooking technique for stock: simmering it in the oven. This is because we have an "Aga" cooker which is always running and has two ovens that work well for stock-making. One, the "plate warming" oven delivers a very gentle simmer; bubbles rise very slowly indeed. This works well for overnight stocks, i.e. about an 8 hour simmer, starting from cold water.

The other, the "simmering" oven gives a slightly livelier simmer and works well for a 3- to 4- hour stock. In both cases, I roast the chicken just a bit to start, browning it more if I want a darker stock. I cover the pots but leave the lid slightly ajar. I concur entirely with Dave's advice about salt. Just a bit at the outset is helpful in extracting maximum flavour, even where the resulting stock will be reduced. But only a bit.

I will sometimes skim the stocks a bit during the first hour of cooking, but tend to leave them alone thereafter, and sometimes don't skim at all. The resulting stocks are clear and flavourful, sometimes not needing any eggwhite clarification. The meat left in the pot is completely flavourless, suggesting that there has been a reasonably complete transfer of flavour to the stock. The stocks never have a scorched flavour, despite the long simmer. The proteins and scum tend to cling to the cooked bones and meat rather than coming out into the stock.

In both ovens the stocks reach 100C and I reduce them somewhat before freezing, so I don't think there is food poisoning risk here. I've been using this method for almost 10 years without incident.

I post this because it seems to me that you could just as easily simmer stocks in an ordinary oven, provided you regulate the temperature with care. The advantage seems to be that the pot is surrounded by heat and the stock isn't agitated the way it would be with a flame under the pot.

One more comment, specific to France: I also make some stocks there, though not in the oven because the stove there has a "plat à mijoter", a hotplate that gives a controlled simmer. But stock making seems to be an unusual step for a home cook in France. Our butcher finds it odd that I do so and comments that few of his retail customers ask for bones or make stocks. And this in the best butcher in Mougins, a town full of foodies. It would be interesting to know other members' experience in this regard. Is there more use of bases or stock cubes? Or do French home cooks buy frozen stocks?

[Nick]

The advantage seems to be that the pot is surrounded by heat and the stock isn't agitated the way it would be with a flame under the pot.

That's an interesting thought. I use an All-Clad SS 7 qt and like it because it has the aluminum core all the way up to the top so the heat is better distributed. But I wonder if it might not be a good idea to have a little extra heat at the bottom to keep the flow going from bottom to top at back again - thus a gentle stirring while it's cooking. Any ideas?

Edit: This from the one who has just admitted above to having used "Better Than Bullion" chicken base.

[Nick]

Nickn: .....I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on sea salt(s) and where to start with them. What are the advantages? What are the taste differences among the various types? When are they best used?

Sea salt is all I used for the last 20+ years and I don't really know the ins and outs of all the salts. I got into it because I learned that, because it's from the sea, it had lots of good trace minerals - and once I tried it, it was tastier than Mortons. I don't know wines, but there are subtleties to salt as well. As with with Tamari, I put a dab on my tongue and go from there.

For years I used Murimoto from Japan. Then a few years ago a fellow here in Maine started "making" it and I tried it and found it to be really good salt. The only thing is that it attracts a lot of moisture in the humidity of the summer and so this year I tried out some Maldon from England. Good salt and it doesn't attract the moisture - but not as good as the Maine salt. I don't have a fresh pack of the Maine salt with the name on it right now but if you want PM me and I'll get it the next time I'm at the coop. Got to get a pack anyhow as I'll start using it again this winter when the wood heat drys things out. The Maine salt is tastier.

Most of the good salt I know about comes as flakes/crystals so it has to be ground for table use. Even if it seems dry, dry it more fully in a pan over fairly low heat and it will grind better.

Re: your last question, I use it for everything, but now that I've heard so much about kosher salt I'll have to try some.

Finally, I only use about a pound of salt per year so in my case cost is not an issue. If anyone has suggestions as to other salt to try I'd appreciate it.

[Dave the Cook]

The advantage seems to be that the pot is surrounded by heat and the stock isn't agitated the way it would be with a flame under the pot.

I wonder if it might not be a good idea to have a little extra heat at the bottom to keep the flow going from bottom to top at back again - thus a gentle stirring while it's cooking. Any ideas?

I've wondered about using the oven, too. I really like this idea. I think I'll try it for beef stock.

Nickn--I had the same question, but in the end, I don't think you need to worry about providing additional heat at the bottom. Here's my theoretical support (subject as always to the caveat that my science education was gleaned mainly from Firesign Theatre recordings and the tattered paperbacks of Isaac Asimov):

1. You will always have material of varying densities within the pot. As the ingredients are extracted and become mixed or saturated, or as the solids become hydrated or dehydrated (all these actions effectively define the making of stock), they will become more or less dense, thus providing some motion.

2. Since heat always rises, your oven will be slightly warmer at the top than at the bottom (except at the very bottom where the heat source is), and your pot will always be slightly warmer at the top, too. This differential means you will always have some motion due to convection, even in a closed, well-insulated pot.

3. You will always be leaking heat out the top, because the lid, even on a high quality pot like yours, does not fit perfectly enough to prevent vapor loss.

4. The longer the pot spends in the oven, the less advantage the All-Clad provides. Over time, with a perfectly insulated oven, everything would achieve the same temperature and convection would stop--full cladding or not. But they aren't perfect--and the sound of your oven thermostat clicking on and off (and the slow but relentless evaporation of your liquid) should be reassuring proof that convection is in action.

Where the All-Clad excels is on the stove top, because the cladding lets you move heat from the bottom to the sides--a great advantage when boiling, reducing or simmering with a bottom-bound heat source. Since in an oven the heat is already at the sides, a thinner pot would actually be better. Theoretically.

Do you have an All-Clad sauté (3 qt.) or fry pan (9" or 10")? if you do, how do you like it? I lost my big sauté (an old Cuisinart) in a household move and need to replace it, so I'm looking for advice.

Thanks for the salt pointers. I'll probably be in touch about the Maine stuff. Let me work on my palate first.

[StephenT]

I've been reading a book on making sauces, written by a chap who's a real perfectionist about recipes. He says not to use any chicken skin when making chicken stock as it gives a harsh flavour as well as being fatty. Has anyone does any specific tests of stock made with skin against stock made without skin?

[Jonathan Day]

For the most part I use sel de Guerlande (coarse French sea salt) in solutions (cooked sauces, stocks, etc) and Maldon salt (fine English flakes) for sprinkling on things or uncooked sauces.

I've been amazed by the low level of evaporation in oven-cooked stocks. I have done many of them completely uncovered, and only a small fraction of the stock evaporates, even over a long period. In some cases this is because a layer of fat floats to the surface; the simmer is so slow that the bubbles don't break through the fat. Perhaps this slows evaporation. The Aga does not have a convection fan, and I would advise switching off the fan in an electric oven.

I struggle to believe the advice about removing the skin, simply because the flavour of roasted chicken skin is so good, and because there are substantial colour elements in the skin. I've done darker chicken stocks by par-roasting the chicken in a very hot oven. The skin caramelises and seems to lend a lovely colour and flavour to the stock.

[Nick]

Where the All-Clad excels is on the stove top, because the cladding lets you move heat from the bottom to the sides--a great advantage when boiling, reducing or simmering with a bottom-bound heat source. Since in an oven the heat is already at the sides, a thinner pot would actually be better. Theoretically.

Do you have an All-Clad sauté (3 qt.) or fry pan (9" or 10")? if you do, how do you like it? I lost my big sauté (an old Cuisinart) in a household move and need to replace it, so I'm looking for advice.

Yes, I think the All-Clad does excell on the stove top - because of the aluminum core that goes all the way up the side. Beautiful heat distribution. And yes, it would make no difference in the oven other than evening out any temperature swings in the oven - then that would probably be insignificant because the heat of the contents would make more difference than that of the container.

While I also don't have any formal training in heat, I've been designing and making wood-burning stoves and ranges for nearly thirty years and so this kind of stuff is always rattling around. Movement and transfer of heat and what happens, etc.

I do have a 3 qt. All-Clad saute and it's great. Also, a 2 qt. and a 1 qt. sauce pan which is the same only smaller. And a 10" fry pan (also excellent), but since I live alone I use my two 7 1/2" fry pans more than anything else in that line. Actually, I have five of the latter - three still in boxes to give away. They were on sale for $19.95 and couldn't resist.

But, there's always a caveat - in this case, nothing browns better than cast iron.

[Dave the Cook]

But, there's always a caveat - in this case, nothing browns better than cast iron.

We agree on this. Between Lodge and LeCreuset, I use it a lot.

But with C/I you can't tell the condition of the fond (or Cajun roux) as easily as in S/S. Also, C/I is slower to heat and (often more important) slower to cool.

[Nick]

But, there's always a caveat - in this case, nothing browns better than cast iron.

We agree on this. Between Lodge and LeCreuset, I use it a lot.

But with C/I you can't tell the condition of the fond (or Cajun roux) as easily as in S/S. Also, C/I is slower to heat and (often more important) slower to cool.

I use Griswold handed down from my mother and just got a couple of LeCreuset "French" ovens that I'm looking forward to using. You're right, the condition of the fond (I call it, "the stuff on the bottom") is easier to gauge in SS, but I'm not sure it's as good as in the cast. Cast iron is slower to heat and the slower to cool ensures steadiness - just don't try to do much with it on a Jennair electric. I call my friend Susie's, "Darth Veda".

Edit: In the cooler and colder months I do a lot of cooking with my wood range. "Steadiness" becomes important doing that unless you want to watch over things constantly.

Edit again: I don't have Escoffier's book, but in perusing it I noted his references to the fire. He was cooking over a real fire - not some nice little ring of flames or some other such thing.

[mixmaster b]

Thanks very much to Dave the Cook for the detailed instructions. I have been making stocks for a long time, but I was inspired to do a more careful job than I normally do, and had great results.

I made a chicken stock with leftover bones from a rather large roasted chicken. Normally, I don't cut the bones up, and I think it made a real difference. I followed instructions as posted by Dave, with the addition of a carrot, thyme, and parsley stems. I found that some skimming was necessary, mainly when the stock first started to simmer. I used slightly less salt than sugested, anot 1/2 tsp for 3 liters, and thought it was sufficient.

I also made a fish stock, which I have not done before, using leftover (uncooked) trout heads and bones. For that, I semi-followed Julia's recipe from Mastering the Art. That really needed skimming! I strained it through a chinois and then through a coffee filter , as I had no idea about the best straining technique. The result was nice and clear.

But both came out very nicely--clearer and with better flavor than past attempts.

I do have a few questions from Jinmyo's post-

What is the best method for "filtering" after straining? And is this done for clarity?

What is the best utensil for skimming? I used a flat spoon but found that I was getting as much liquid as scum.

Thanks!!!

[Dave the Cook]

What is the best utensil for skimming?  I used a flat spoon but found that I was getting as much liquid as scum.

They're called skimmers. I use one like this:

The problem is that scum bubbles are often the same size (or smaller) as the holes in the skimmer. So I'm thinking about getting one like this:

And thank you, mb.

[mixmaster b]

That sieve/skimmy thing looks perfect! Actually, I have used like items at shabu-shabu restaurants with great success. Must get one for the next stock making session! Thanks!

[Nick]

I have both kinds of skimmers and they work great. One for some stuff and the other for other stuff. The one with big holes works good for the initial froth and the fine screen for when you're getting picky.

[snowangel]

We do not have an automatic ice maker in our fridge. We use trays, and have a "bin" thingee to put the cubes in.

The bin thingee is full of ice cubies. The trays are full of chicken stock, and there is a note taped to the end of the top tray indicating "chicken stock freezing."

DH makes a G & T, but opts not to use the cubes in the bin thingee, but take fresh cubes from the tray, ignoring the note that states "chicken stock freezing."

A G & T with chicken stock cubes is nasty, and a total waste of gin, tonic and stock.

[Anna N]

A G & T with chicken stock cubes is nasty, and a total waste of gin, tonic and stock. 

That's why I have blue ice cube trays for "not ice cubes" and white ones for ice cubes!

I can't remember now the catastrophe that led to this solution. It wasn't a G & T but whatever it was, a whole tray full of frozen lemon juice didn't improve it!

Anna N

[richw]

As for salt, last weekend I made two batches of stock, each using four pounds of legs and two quarts of water.

What did you do with the legs once the stock was done?

[Marlene]

I confess. I do not make stock. I buy it, usually from WS, but sometimes from Bruno's here. They make it and package it, I freeze it. (I'm ducking now )

[inventolux]

Chicken stock using roasted chicken feet cooked on low heat in a pressure cooker for 4 to 6 hours. Thats my current method, works well.

[Kim WB]

I love the Beard Recipe...Chicken Stock, and double chicken stock...its on right now..I make the first batch, triple it, and freeze most of it for stock. Then, I buy a Bell and Evans..don't talk chix to me..that's the ONLY one I use...and take the reserve stock, add the whole 3-4 lb chix, and make a double chix broth..you use the poached chickens on the first night in something,or pull off the meat for salad or sandwhcihes... then freeze the rest of the double strenght broth. ...when you are sick or lazy, you defrost this, add a bit of ginger, and buy a pre cooked roaster, and pulloff the meat and add it...or any precooked chix thing..I have even used the perdue shortcuts grilled chix package..when you are sick, its the best.

Edited June 11, 2003 by Kim WB (log)

[NeroW]

A G & T with chicken stock cubes is nasty, and a total waste of gin, tonic and stock. 

At least you noticed it was off. I probably would've drank it anyway, and another one after that, and then been like, "dude, what happened to my chicken stock cubes?"