"Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day" Zoe Francois (2008–2009)

[Anna N]

. . .

I think I should have let it rise then cut the slashes, right? I cut them right when I put it on the peel. Also the work bench is close to the big kitchen radiator, so I think I can get by with a shorter rise time.

Nice to know I can make a few more at short notice!

henri

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Welcome! Yes, usually the slashing is done just prior to the bread going into the oven. Nevertheless your loaf looks lovely.

[mhjoseph]

Real Jewish rye bread uses clear flour for the non-rye component (see Secrets of a Jewish Baker). For those that don't know, clear flour is what remains after the first extraction and still has a lot of the dark outer parts of the grain and has a high protein level. This is what makes the loaf firm.

I have some on hand and have been thinking about trying this method using it. Rye bread has been my culinary Mt. Everest and I haven't attempted it yet. One of the best Jewish rye bakeries in the world is down the street from me and I'm afraid that I not going to be able to meet my own expectations. From the pictures that I've seen posted though, I think that I may be able to come close.

Zoe, do you have any thoughts on using clear for the AP in the recipe.

Marc

Hi Marc,

Yes, the clear flour would work beautifully in the recipe. I haven't tried it in this particular rye dough (we tried to avoid special ingredients for the book), so I can't give you the %, but it should work. If you use it will you let me know what you think. I'll get some and try it as well.

It would also be good to use in the whole wheat breads.

Thanks! Zoe

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I baked a loaf last night out the dough that I prepared on Thursday night. I made half of a recipe using clear flour from King Arthur in place of the AP flour and medium rye also from KA.

The results were totally amazing. I have local access to authentic, high quality Jewish rye bread so I have what to compare this to, and my loaf of is at least of equal quality which is really saying a lot since good rye bread is hard to come by now days. The only fault was that the crust is not as crisp as that from the bakery, probably due to fact that I don't have a commercial oven.

The photos came out so bad that I'm not going to post them.

It just doesn't feel right getting such good bread with so little effort.

Marc

[gfron1]

Just a note that this topic has been added the Pastry & Baking Index HERE.

[MelissaH]

Let's wait for others to try this and make sure it works under all circumstances and with all gloves!  I am happy but then I have cheap vinyl gloves that are not really designed for food handling!

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I tried using latex gloves purchased at a pharmacy. They too worked beautifully for non-sticking the dough.

I am stuck trying to keep dough in a 'fridge that is already too small for my needs.  I would love to be able to have a selection of doughs in there but am going to have to look at doing 1/2 recipes and finding more suitable containers!

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This time of year, I just keep the dough in our garage. It stays a pretty constant 40 to 45 degrees F there, and the dough rests nicely next to the lagering beer-in-progress.

MelissaH

[Anna N]

Let's wait for others to try this and make sure it works under all circumstances and with all gloves!  I am happy but then I have cheap vinyl gloves that are not really designed for food handling!

←

I tried using latex gloves purchased at a pharmacy. They too worked beautifully for non-sticking the dough.

I am stuck trying to keep dough in a 'fridge that is already too small for my needs.  I would love to be able to have a selection of doughs in there but am going to have to look at doing 1/2 recipes and finding more suitable containers!

←

This time of year, I just keep the dough in our garage. It stays a pretty constant 40 to 45 degrees F there, and the dough rests nicely next to the lagering beer-in-progress.

MelissaH

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Glad the gloves worked for you. I think it's like a miracle for handling this wet dough.

We don't have a garage so that is not an option and we live in a very tiny stacked town house so that another 'fridge is not an option. I already have a beer fridge in addition to my "normal" one! But it holds............. beer!

At least once a day I stare into the small area of my basement that is the laundry room and hubby's work room and cannot see a spot to stick another 'fridge. I will work something out though - I have to have dough in readyness.

[Zoe Francois]

The moral of this sad story is:  Never try to bake while listening to Tom Petty.

pat

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Hahaha! I will heed your advice! Thanks. It is the sign of a true chef that can turn that situation around and have something to eat at the end that you didn't have to call in!

Thanks, Zoë

[Zoe Francois]

Hey all, my first post on eGullet

Found this thread last week and mixed up a batch on Friday evening. It took a bit more time than expected (I was holding my 6month old in one hand and she was trying to grab everything).

After looking around I decided to use the cake saver as our 'bucket', worked out fine.

I used the master recipe found in this thread with instant yeast and KA AP flour (and maybe 1/3cup more water - next time I'll add the water by weight and aim for a specific %)

I think I should have let it rise then cut the slashes, right? I cut them right when I put it on the peel. Also the work bench is close to the big kitchen radiator, so I think I can get by with a shorter rise time.

Nice to know I can make a few more at short notice!

henri

←

Hi Henri,

Welcome. Thanks for trying the bread! It looks gorgeous. The crust is a great color. Next time, as Anna said, you'll want to try to slash right before baking.

Let me know what you think in a couple of days after the dough has some time to age. I'm assuming you baked this right after the initial rise. When you bake the bread from cold dough you may want to let it rise for the same amount of time as this one to get that lovely crumb! ...and hold the baby every time you mix up the dough, maybe that was the secret to your success!

Thanks, Zoe

Edited February 4, 2008 by Zoe Francois (log)

[Zoe Francois]

I mixed up the Chris Kimball( Cook's Illustrated) inspired wheat loaf on Wednesday ( it might have been Friday).

I baked it off last night. I weighed it out and it was close to a 2lb loaf.  I think I pulled it from the oven about 10 minutes too soon because the crumb seemed a little moist when I cut it.  The temp of the bread was 195F, but I wanted to go to bed last night.  I didnt realize it needed 1hour 40 min to rest and close to 40 min to bake. 

I looked up the original recipe CI's wheat sandwich bread and based on that, I put the pan of water next to the unbaked loaf in the oven.    It has a nice crust, but it shrunk a little overnight.

It made nice sandwiches for our lunch. 

I love the flavor of the bread!!  I also love that I can bake a fresh loaf for sandwiches every couple of days!!

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Hi, The sandwiches look great! I think it probably shrunk because it was slightly under baked and hadn't fully set! Because it was such a large loaf, it may have needed even more time in the oven. Having said that the crumb still looked really good.

Let me know how the next batch comes out.

Thanks, Zoe

[onehsancare]

This feels like one of those stupid kitchen questions you’re almost too embarrassed to ask, but . . .

I’ve ordered my book, but it’s not due to arrive for a few days, so I started a batch of the recipe at the beginning of this thread (1.5 T yeast, 1.5 T salt, 6.5 c. flour) to tide me over.

So far, I’ve made two SMALL boules. After the first one, I intended to cut off a bigger piece with my serrated knife, but ended up with about the same amount of dough. That would be okay, but I really man-handled it getting it out of the bowl, deflating it significantly.

Do you dump the entire batch onto the cutting board to cut off today’s loaf, or use the knife in the bowl? How do you keep the part you’re removing and the part that’s remaining from deflating?

[tino27]

This feels like one of those stupid kitchen questions you’re almost too embarrassed to ask, but . . .

I’ve ordered my book, but it’s not due to arrive for a few days, so I started a batch of the recipe at the beginning of this thread (1.5 T yeast, 1.5 T salt, 6.5 c. flour) to tide me over.

So far, I’ve made two SMALL boules.  After the first one, I intended to cut off a bigger piece with my serrated knife, but ended up with about the same amount of dough.  That would be okay, but I really man-handled it getting it out of the bowl, deflating it significantly.

Do you dump the entire batch onto the cutting board to cut off today’s loaf, or use the knife in the bowl?  How do you keep the part you’re removing and the part that’s remaining from deflating?

←

No matter how carefully you handle the dough, there will always be some deflation of the dough.

A tip to get the dough out of the container is to first spray the container with a stick-release spray (like Pam) before putting the finished dough in to rise. You could also use a paper towel and some canola oil to wipe the surface of the container as well. When you go to cut off a hunk of dough, gently pry out the entire dough using you fingers or a bowl scraper, slice off the amount you need, and return the rest to the bowl. The trick is not to pull on the dough as that will cause the deflation you experienced.

edited: for clarity

Edited February 4, 2008 by tino27 (log)

[Anna N]

. . .

So far, I’ve made two SMALL boules.  After the first one, I intended to cut off a bigger piece with my serrated knife, but ended up with about the same amount of dough.  That would be okay, but I really man-handled it getting it out of the bowl, deflating it significantly.

Do you dump the entire batch onto the cutting board to cut off today’s loaf, or use the knife in the bowl?  How do you keep the part you’re removing and the part that’s remaining from deflating?

←

Try some vinyl or latex gloves to handle the dough and try using a pair of scissors to cut off the amount you want. I have found this to be much easier than using a serrated knife and causes much less deflation. Keep trying - it will all work for you eventually!

[Zoe Francois]

I baked a loaf last night out the dough that I prepared on Thursday night. I made half of a recipe using clear flour from King Arthur in place of the AP flour and medium rye also from KA.

The results were totally amazing. I have local access to authentic, high quality Jewish rye bread so I have what to compare this to, and my loaf of is at least of equal quality which is really saying a lot since good rye bread is hard to come by now days. The only fault was that the crust is not as crisp as that from the bakery, probably due to fact that I don't have a commercial oven.

The photos came out so bad that I'm not going to post them.

It just doesn't feel right getting such good bread with so little effort.

Marc

←

Hi Marc,

This is so exciting! I can't wait to try it with the clear flour. Thanks!

Zoe

[Zoe Francois]

This feels like one of those stupid kitchen questions you’re almost too embarrassed to ask, but . . .

I’ve ordered my book, but it’s not due to arrive for a few days, so I started a batch of the recipe at the beginning of this thread (1.5 T yeast, 1.5 T salt, 6.5 c. flour) to tide me over.

So far, I’ve made two SMALL boules.  After the first one, I intended to cut off a bigger piece with my serrated knife, but ended up with about the same amount of dough.  That would be okay, but I really man-handled it getting it out of the bowl, deflating it significantly.

Do you dump the entire batch onto the cutting board to cut off today’s loaf, or use the knife in the bowl?  How do you keep the part you’re removing and the part that’s remaining from deflating?

←

Hi. Great question! It is true, there will be some deflating when you reach into the tub. The trick is to get it down to a minimum. Like Tino and Anna have suggested you will figure out the way that works best for you. I just sprinkle flour over the surface and stretch a piece of dough out to cut with a knife. I think the gloves, spraying the bucket and using scissors may work really well too.

Have you seen the videos that I have posted on my website? It may help to see it being done. I think the one we did for the Chicago Tribune is the clearest.

www.zoebakes.com

Thanks for trying the recipe. Zoe

[saluki]

Just received my copy of the book from Amazon today and picked up a couple of 25 cup Reynolds Casual square containers with a vent from Target.

A few questions please

If I want to use fresh Rosemary and put it into the initial mixture--Can it still be kept in the fridge for up to two weeks?

Also, if I use a baking Cloche do I still put water into a pan underneath?

Lastly, I ordered clear flour and medium rye from KA. If I use clear flour instead of AP to make rye bread how much water do you think I should use?

[MelissaH]

Here's a question, for those of you who bake on parchment: do you find that the bottom of your loaf winds up pale, compared to the part that was not in contact with the parchment? I'm using a pre-heated stone, and even when I pull the parchment out as soon as the loaf is set enough to do so, I still wind up with the bottom significantly paler than the rest of the crust.

Has anyone tried baking these breads on an oiled pizza screen, placed on the stone? I'm wondering if that would make the crust color more consistent, but at the same time reduce the amount of cornmeal rolling around my oven.

And what internal temperature am I shooting for, when the loaf is fully baked?

MelissaH

[Lapin d'Argent]

Here's a question, for those of you who bake on parchment: do you find that the bottom of your loaf winds up pale, compared to the part that was not in contact with the parchment? I'm using a pre-heated stone, and even when I pull the parchment out as soon as the loaf is set enough to do so, I still wind up with the bottom significantly paler than the rest of the crust.

Has anyone tried baking these breads on an oiled pizza screen, placed on the stone? I'm wondering if that would make the crust color more consistent, but at the same time reduce the amount of cornmeal rolling around my oven.

And what internal temperature am I shooting for, when the loaf is fully baked?

MelissaH

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Melissa,

I found my loaf (just like all my pizzas) came out with a nice, dark bottom. However, I pre-heat the stone in a 500 degree oven for a good hour before putting anything on it. Only when I put the bread onto the stone did I turn down the heat to 450.

I didn't pull the parchment away until the loaf had baked - under a cloche heated for the same time at the same temp - for twenty minutes. At that point, the parchment was pretty scorched.

What kind of pizza stone do you have? Is it a nice thick one? Have you had good luck getting good, dark browning on the bottom of pizza crusts directly on your stone within, say, a 10 to 15 minute cooking time? Have you tried checking your oven temperature with an oven thermometer?

There, those are all the diagnostic hints I can come up with; hope that's some help!

- Laura

[Zoe Francois]

Just received my copy of the book from Amazon today and picked up a couple of 25 cup Reynolds Casual square containers with a vent from Target.

A few questions please

If I want to use fresh Rosemary and put it into the initial mixture--Can it still be kept in the fridge for up to two weeks?

Also, if I use a baking Cloche do I still put water into a pan underneath?

Lastly, I ordered clear flour and medium rye from KA.  If I use clear flour instead of AP to make rye bread how much water do you think I should use?

←

Hi. Yes, you can add the rosemary and still keep the dough for 2 weeks, although I rarely can keep a batch for 2 weeks before baking it all. The only time you can't keep it for that long is when the dough in enriched with milk, eggs or cheese.

When you use your cloche to bake you won't need the additional steam. It gets the moisture from the dough itself to produce steam in the cloche.

I'll leave the matter of clear flour and hydration up to Marc. I've not done it yet and he has, so what say you Marc?

Thanks, Zoë

[Lapin d'Argent]

Also, if I use a baking Cloche do I still put water into a pan underneath?

←

Saluki,

I can't help with your other questions, but the great thing about using a cloche is you don't need that pan of water. Just preheat the top of the cloche on top of your pizza stone. I put mine in while the dough was rising at 500 degrees, then turned it down to 450 when the dough went in.

Make sure you have a safe place to park the very hot cloche while you slide the bread onto the stone -- don't try to hold the cloche and and your peel at the same time!

Thanks for sharing your experiments with us; I can't wait to hear how the clear flour and rye work out for you.

- Laura

[SondraG]

Here's a question, for those of you who bake on parchment: do you find that the bottom of your loaf winds up pale, compared to the part that was not in contact with the parchment? I'm using a pre-heated stone, and even when I pull the parchment out as soon as the loaf is set enough to do so, I still wind up with the bottom significantly paler than the rest of the crust.

Has anyone tried baking these breads on an oiled pizza screen, placed on the stone? I'm wondering if that would make the crust color more consistent, but at the same time reduce the amount of cornmeal rolling around my oven.

And what internal temperature am I shooting for, when the loaf is fully baked?

MelissaH

←

I bake on parchment, just because it's less messy in the oven (cornmeal and flour all over the oven floor). The bottom is paler, even on a preheated stone. Haven't tried oiled screen, but I suspect the bottom would brown more. I'll give it a try this week, and see what happens. As for temp, I shoot for 200 F or close.

[Zoe Francois]

Here's a question, for those of you who bake on parchment: do you find that the bottom of your loaf winds up pale, compared to the part that was not in contact with the parchment? I'm using a pre-heated stone, and even when I pull the parchment out as soon as the loaf is set enough to do so, I still wind up with the bottom significantly paler than the rest of the crust.

Has anyone tried baking these breads on an oiled pizza screen, placed on the stone? I'm wondering if that would make the crust color more consistent, but at the same time reduce the amount of cornmeal rolling around my oven.

And what internal temperature am I shooting for, when the loaf is fully baked?

MelissaH

←

Melissa,

I found my loaf (just like all my pizzas) came out with a nice, dark bottom. However, I pre-heat the stone in a 500 degree oven for a good hour before putting anything on it. Only when I put the bread onto the stone did I turn down the heat to 450.

I didn't pull the parchment away until the loaf had baked - under a cloche heated for the same time at the same temp - for twenty minutes. At that point, the parchment was pretty scorched.

What kind of pizza stone do you have? Is it a nice thick one? Have you had good luck getting good, dark browning on the bottom of pizza crusts directly on your stone within, say, a 10 to 15 minute cooking time? Have you tried checking your oven temperature with an oven thermometer?

There, those are all the diagnostic hints I can come up with; hope that's some help!

- Laura

←

Hi Melissa,

I agree with Laura on the stone issues. If your loaf still isn't browning on the bottom, you may want to peel the paper off and turn the loaf upside down for the last 5-10 minutes of baking.

I haven't ever tried the screen. Let me know what you think if you do.

I usually don't check the internal temperature, I go by the color of the crust. If the crust is a really deep brown then it is done. Not very scientific, but it works for me! If you do use a thermometer about 200 degrees should be right.

Thanks, Zoë

[CaliPoutine]

Here's a question, for those of you who bake on parchment: do you find that the bottom of your loaf winds up pale, compared to the part that was not in contact with the parchment?

Yes, it does!!

[tsquare]

Last night, I mixed up a half batch of the basic, with 1/2 cup ww.

Hadn't planned to bake it, but for experiment sake, did bake half in a buttered loaf pan. Obviously not enough dough, and really took some effort not to mess much with the wet dough.

Baking - loved the scent. Out it came, low and small. Thought for sure it would be a little brick. But no! While small, it had a crispy crust, and a very even, but light crumb. I say, too salty, but still, quite remarkable.

Second half - waiting a few days.

[henri]

made a second loaf this morning. No pictures (we ate it too fast!), but the crumb was nicer (larger air pockets, not quite as chewy) and the crust was really nice.

The dough is now 4 days old. Noticeably more taste than the first loaf.

I heated a large stainless bowl and used it as a cover over the stone for the first 20min. No water in the oven. Crust came out perfect, this is the way I'll keep on baking the bread.

Pizza night in 2 nights , that will use up the rest of the first batch. Guess I should mix up some more dough tonight

Edited February 5, 2008 by henri (log)

[plafield]

My book came today! I'm so excited! I live in an area where the only available bread is large chain grocery store bread or small chain "bakery" bread. None of it good.

I mixed half a batch of deli rye and half a batch of master recipe this afternoon. I just put it in the fridge. The plan is to shape a loaf of rye tonight to bake tomorrow and to let the master recipe rest until Friday. I'll post some pics of the rye after baking it up tomorrow.

[Zoe Francois]

Last night, I mixed up a half batch of the basic, with 1/2 cup ww.

Hadn't planned to bake it, but for experiment sake, did bake half in a buttered loaf pan. Obviously not enough dough, and really took some effort not to mess much with the wet dough.

Baking - loved the scent. Out it came, low and small. Thought for sure it would be a little brick. But no! While small, it had a crispy crust, and a very even, but light crumb. I say, too salty, but still, quite remarkable.

Second half - waiting a few days.

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Hi tsquare,

I'm so glad you enjoyed the bread! If you follow the instructions in the book, you will end up with a pretty low small loaf. I tend to over fill the pan (about 3/4 full)and just let it rise longer. I like a big loaf!

Do play with the amount of salt to suit your palate.

Thanks, I look forward to hearing about the next try!

Zoë