Cornbread [MERGED TOPIC]

[WalterG]

Collapses as in growing 2" over the pan rim and then about even with the rim when cool.

[Thanks for the Crepes]

@WalterG, I ate the last of my delicious cornbread for dinner tonight. I have made it with butter, olive oil when I want to flavor it with rosemary, or canola oil when I am budgeting. You could certainly use corn oil if you like.

 

Tonight's cornbread had a couple of large (4") jalapenos chopped fine and stirred into the batter. If you want to substitute canned corn, first let me recommend thawed frozen corn as an alternative because it will taste fresher, and possibly be cheaper. I get a pound of it for 99 cents. If you're using a recipe that was specifically developed toward adding canned creamed corn, if you substitute corn kernels, you probably would have to up the liquid. However, if you are using a regular cornbread recipe that's designed to come out moist without inclusions, you could probably add corn kernels and leave the liquid at the same amount.

 

All my cornbread recipes call for a 425 F preheated oven, including my favorite, arrived at over decades, which I'll give at the end of this post. Three seventy-five is not hot enough, but if you absolutely had to you might get acceptable results if you increased the baking time. It won't be optimum. I think the reason your cornbread is collapsing is because it just isn't done. It's risen but not set. Longer baking might correct the problem. Cornbread should be moist but not doughy, and definitely should not collapse like a fallen cake.

 

Are you preheating the cast iron skillet along with the oven? If not you are setting yourself up for disaster! Cast iron accepts and then releases into the food an amazing amount of heat. If it's not preheated, combined with your reduced 375 oven temp, it's going to insulate your batter, and inhibit proper cooking.

 

Baking soda is wasted if you are not using buttermilk or some other acidic ingredient. Baking powder is baking soda and cream of tarter, which is acidic, and that's what allows it to work, but soda can work if you use molasses, vinegar, lemon juice or another acid.

 

adapted from Perfect Corn Bread 

from: "Better Homes and Gardens New Cookbook", copyright 1968

 

Preheat oven to 425 F 

 

If you are using a 10" cast iron pan, throw it in the oven when you turn it on, and just before pouring in batter, melt butter and swirl to coat.

 

2 eggs

1 c milk

3/4 t salt (I like 1 t, especially with vegetable inclusions)

2 T sugar (they say 1/4 cup, but I dislike sweet cornbread)

 

Beat these ingredients together in medium mixing bowl. I use a hand whisk.

 

1/4 c shortening (not in mine)

 

I never use shortening, so if I'm adding a liquid oil, I substitute the same amount, and whisk it in with the other liquid ingredients. If I use butter, I make sure it's at warm room temp and add it with the dry ingredients, which follow. Add to your bowl:

 

1 c all purpose flour

1 c yellow cornmeal  (I like stone ground)

4 t baking powder

 

Beat again until just smooth. Do NOT overbeat. Pour batter into pan and bake for 20 to 25 minutes. When it looks risen and golden brown, test with a toothpick in the middle. Toothpick should come out clean, dry and be quite hot to the touch immediately after pulling it out.

 

I like to use a heavy steel non-stick 9" Wearever cakepan for my cornbread and just spray it with an oil spray like Pam, but I buy the bargain brand.

 

It's never failed me, and I hope it works for you.

 

I also think I have a cornmeal yeast loaf recipe kicking around, so let me know if you'd like it, but I suggest you try this one first.

 

You've got one of those damned electronic ovens, don't you?  

 

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2016 by Thanks for the Crepes
Added size of cake pan (log)

[Lisa Shock]

You will never get as high a rise out of cornbread as you will with other quickbreads which are primarily wheat flour because there's less or no (depending upon if your recipe uses wheat flour) gluten structure. The lack of structure is why you see the rise then fall; air bubbles, kind of like balloons, are formed but the batter can't maintain the bubbles/balloons beyond a certain point and they burst. (This also happens at high altitudes with all sorts of baked goods.)

 

None of your add-ins help build structure. Some of them are hindering your project.

 

An additional egg will help a bit, but it will also change the texture. Using a small amount (maybe 2oz) of high-gluten flour will help with keeping the rise, but will also make a tougher product.

 

Using finely milled corn flour as opposed to cornmeal gives a lighter texture. It doesn't help structure, it just gives a less dense result.

 

You could try yeast, but, you will get similar results (with an added yeasty flavor) because yeast doesn't affect structure much beyond consuming a microscopic amount of starch.

 

Overall, I'd say stop using so much leavening, it adds bitter, bad flavors. With less leavening maybe you'll be able to tolerate more simple cornbreads, without so many non-corn ingredients. Essentially, you need to accept the fact that cornbread will never soft and fluffy like commerical white breads.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Lisa Shock
spelling error (log)

[andiesenji]

I agree that you may be using too much leavening.

 

My cornbread recipe, which is "southern" style, uses only baking soda and buttermilk for leavening.  No baking powder.

It rises and stays there, does not collapse much, if any.

 

It's on my blog here.   With photos.   Whatever fat your use, make sure it is hot when added to the batter and add it right at the end, just before the hot pan goes back into the oven.

I've been making cornbread this way for more than 50 years.  It's not sweet, it's not cake and it is sturdy.  

 

The only YEASTED cornbread requires the use of wheat flour that contains gluten, otherwise there is no structure to hold onto the gas produced by the yeast.  If you can't contain that gas in the structure of the bread, the action of the yeast is wasted.

If you want a yeasted bread that contains cornmeal, look for a recipe for Anadama bread - King Arthur Flour has an excellent one.

BUT, it is not cornbread per se.  It is a New England thing.

 

In the 1800s and the early part of the last century, people did prepare a fermented corn mash "bread" rather like hoe cakes, baked on a griddle, but as few people now "cook" corn mash, it fell out of favor - people who made it were often suspected of making moonshine.  

Cornmeal and hot water, mixed and left alone, will ferment in a couple of days and you can smell it from a distance.  

 

[pastryani]

I don't know much about cornbread, but I'll tackle the pan size question in your post.  When I was making cakes, the formula for calculating the area of a circle was invaluable:  Area = pi * r * r (couldn't find the pi symbol or superscript).  I never really bothered with volume because the height would (in theory) be the same if I proportioned everything out correctly (does that even make sense?!).

 

In your case:

 

- an 8" pan would give you an area of approx. 50 sq inches

- a 10" pan would give you an area of approx. 78.5 sq inches

- a 12" pan would give you an area of approx 113 sq inches

 

So to answer your question, yes, if you were to double the 8" pan recipe, it would fit into the 12" pan, but would be slightly lower in height when compared to the height obtained in the 8" pan.  

 

[gfweb]

What everybody else said...

and

I don't like a cakey cornbread, so I put in about twice as much corn meal as flour.

 

My favorite addition is diced pickled jalapeno

Edited April 20, 2016 by gfweb (log)

[Slick]

I remember somebody (a Southerner, might have been Justin Wilson) said when asked about "pi" R squared:

"Pie are round, cornbread are square."

In my heritage, cornbread was always made in a light weight square pan, either 8" or 9" with nothing added to the basic 1:1:1:1:1:& enough (cooks choice) ingredients: Corn meal, flour, milk, egg, baking powder, enough oil and a little salt. Sugar is optional unless your going to make it into a dessert. 

Eat it hot or cold, cut into squares. I like mine hot from the oven, split and lathered with butter and for breakfast, covered in syrup. It's one of the first things learned to make as a child.

[Alex]

11 hours ago, pastryani said:

I don't know much about cornbread, but I'll tackle the pan size question in your post.  When I was making cakes, the formula for calculating the area of a circle was invaluable:  Area = pi * r * r (couldn't find the pi symbol or superscript).  I never really bothered with volume because the height would (in theory) be the same if I proportioned everything out correctly (does that even make sense?!).

 

In your case:

 

- an 8" pan would give you an area of approx. 50 sq inches

- a 10" pan would give you an area of approx. 78.5 sq inches

- a 12" pan would give you an area of approx 113 sq inches

 

So to answer your question, yes, if you were to double the 8" pan recipe, it would fit into the 12" pan, but would be slightly lower in height when compared to the height obtained in the 8" pan.  

 

 

The ASCII superscript 2 is Alt+0178. (Hold down the Alt key, type 0178 from the number keypad -- not the top row -- then release Alt.) Similarly, pi is Alt+227. (On a Mac, pi is Option+p)

 

There's also no need to figure out the actual areas. Because pi (sorry, π) is a constant, you can ignore it; all you need to do is compare the square of the radii. For example, a 8" pan = 16; a 12" pan = 36. So, in WalterG's original question, it's 32 vs. 36. Therefore, if you double the 8" recipe, you'd need to increase it by 1/8 to exactly match the amount for a 12". The cooking time probably would be different for the 12", though.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Alex (log)

[Alex]

14 hours ago, WalterG said:

Hi. First post has got to be about my favorite food. Cornbread. So, several questions.

1) I've seen cornbread made with butter, vegetable oil, bacon fat, and lard. Since its cornbread, why never corn oil?

2) My favorite things to add to cornbread are, creamed corn, onions, green peppers, shredded cheese, and bacon. What else can be used?

3) I really hate straining my oven for recipes calling for 450 degrees. Are there any low temp(350-375) recipes?

4) I have 2-10" and a 12" cast iron skillet. Recipes for a 10" skillet seem to be the norm, but I have found some for the 12" and am finding some more using an 8". If I double an 8" recipe will it fit in a 12" skillet?

5) As for creamed corn in a recipe, how will using a regular can of corn ( drained) affect a recipe? Will more liquid be required?

6) Any cornbread recipes that use yeast? I've always tried to get a high riser in my skillets, but even with a lot of baking soda and baking powder, the cornbread usually collapses when I take it out of the oven and cool it.

O.K. I think thats enough for now.

 

1) Pure corn oil wouldn't really add much to the overall corn flavor.

2) A couple of times I used fresh corn just cut off the cob, but I'm a purist, so I almost always stick with the basic recipe.

3) I use Paul Prudhomme's recipe from his Louisana Kitchen cookbook, which calls for 350°F -- and an 8x8 baking pan. (The linked recipe should specify a *small* egg.) I've never used a cast iron skillet. I also cut back on the amount of sugar in the recipe, which is fine by him.

4) See my earlier post.

5) No idea.

6) Prudhomme's recipe uses baking powder and salt; no baking soda. Hasn't sunk yet.

 

[WalterG]

Hi all. I'm sorry. I'm going to have to delay my answers/comments to all of you until Saturday. Got a call this morning. Have to attend an out of town funeral.

[pastryani]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

 

The ASCII superscript 2 is Alt+0178. (Hold down the Alt key, type 0178 from the number keypad -- not the top row -- then release Alt.) Similarly, pi is Alt+227. (On a Mac, pi is Option+p)

 

There's also no need to figure out the actual areas. Because pi (sorry, π) is a constant, you can ignore it; all you need to do is compare the square of the radii. For example, a 8" pan = 16; a 12" pan = 36. So, in WalterG's original question, it's 32 vs. 36. Therefore, if you double the 8" recipe, you'd need to increase it by 1/8 to exactly match the amount for a 12". The cooking time probably would be different for the 12", though.

 

 

Alex - (thanks)² for the secret superscript code!    You're right, π is unnecessary in the calculation - I did it out of habit (to think of all that extra math I did for no reason!!).  

 

[Alex]

10 minutes ago, pastryani said:

 

Alex - (thanks)² for the secret superscript code!    You're right, π is unnecessary in the calculation - I did it out of habit (to think of all that extra math I did for no reason!!).  

 

 

Those Alt+ codes come in very handy. Here's a website with all sorts of tables. The third one, titled "The extended ASCII codes," is the one I use all the time -- for accented letters, some fractions, the degree sign, etc. Just append a zero to the beginning of the decimal (DEC) code in the table. There's probably a site out there with a more printable table, but I'll leave that up to you and others.

 

The pi character comes from a collection of mathematical symbols. For example, the characters from Alt+234 through Alt+247 are αßΓπΣσµτΦΘΩδ∞φε∩≡±≥≤⌠⌡÷

 

There also are a ton of special characters in Windows' Character Map. I copied it to the Desktop for easy access; creating a shortcut there would work just as well. You can find it from Windows Explorer or My Computer at C:\Windows\System32\charmap

 

I seem to remember that at some point in the foggy past, the eG powers that be recommended that certain words be spelled without any accented letters, even though they would technically be more correct if the diacritical marks were included -- for example, "creme brulee" instead of "crème brûlée" -- because our search engine wasn't sophisticated enough to combine a search both with and without the diacritical marks.

[Nancy in Pátzcuaro]

I'll chime in with my own favorite cornbread recipe developed over many years. It's really a combination of 2 or 3 techniques.

 

Preheat oven to 400. *Note that the cast iron skillet goes into the oven with the oil as the oven preheats (see below).

 

Mix together

1 tsp. baking soda and 1 tsp. water. Set aside.

 

Whisk together

2 c. cornmeal (I used yellow, of course)

1/2 tsp. salt

1/2 tsp. baking powder

2 Tbs. sugar

 

Beat together

3 eggs

1-1/2 c. buttermilk

 

*Place 4 Tbs. oil--olive, corn, vegetable or bacon fat--in a cast iron skillet (10") and put in the oven while preheating.

Mix wet and dry ingredients until just blended--do not over beat. Give the baking soda/water mixture a quick stir and add it to the batter.

Remove hot pan from the oven, pour the hot oil into the batter and mix well. Pour the batter into the hot pan and bake for 20 minutes. Check after 18 minutes but don't over bake.

 

Note that there's no flour in this batter and very little sugar. I've found that a full teaspoon of salt is too much for my taste. I rarely add anything to this, but if I were to add something I think it would be jalapeños or other similar chiles. This makes a very sturdy cornbread, so if you want something fluffier another recipe might be more satisfying for you.

 

And if you want to use it for your Thanksgiving stuffing, add another egg.

 

Nancy in Pátzcuaro

 

 

Edited April 20, 2016 by Nancy in Pátzcuaro
edited to include stiring the baking soda/water mixture (log)

[kayb]

I grew up using self-rising cornmeal mix (which I believe is about a 1:1 corn meal/flour ratio, plus baking powder), so that's what I still lean toward. Fat is generally bacon fat, if I have that around; if not, corn oil or vegetable or canola oil, whatever I have, and I have from time to time used olive oil.

 

I never measure anything in cornbread; dump some cornmeal mix in a bowl, add an egg, the fat (which I have never added hot), and enough milk or buttermilk, whatever I have on hand (I have used half and half in a pinch) until it's thin enough. I can eyeball the right amounts for my 8-inch skillet, which makes plenty for two with enough left over for small recipe of chicken and dressing. Definitely yes on the hot skillet.

 

Add-ins: All the aforementioned, with the exception that I don't like jalapenos, but have used chipotle; for corn I usually use frozen corn, make the batter thicker, and fry it in patties/fritters for an arepa-type side, great with chili or posole. Love grated cheddar in it, or cotija. Another add-in I like is chopped broccoli. I also used to make, when the kids were little, a "tamale pie," which had ground beef cooked with "Mexican"-ish seasonings, a healthy layer of cheese, and cornbread batter with corn poured over the top. 

 

The only instance in which I make a sweetened cornbread is rosemary cornbread that's more cakey (higher ratio of flour to meal) and designed to go with brunch-type dishes. A sweet taste ought not go with rosemary, but it does, somehow. Recipe here.

 

Oh, and cracklings. I've never had it with anything but pork cracklings, but I see no reason it shouldn't work with duck or chicken. There is NOTHING like a big pan of crackling cornbread with "new sorghum," i.e., sorghum molasses during the first couple of weeks after it's made, before it ages. With country style bacon or country ham, and stewed tomatoes. Feed me that and just go ahead and kill me now.

 

Edited April 21, 2016 by kayb
close parentheses (log)

[andiesenji]

19 hours ago, kayb said:

I grew up using self-rising cornmeal mix (which I believe is about a 1:1 corn meal/flour ratio, plus baking powder), so that's what I still lean toward. Fat is generally bacon fat, if I have that around; if not, corn oil or vegetable or canola oil, whatever I have, and I have from time to time used olive oil.

 

I never measure anything in cornbread; dump some cornmeal mix in a bowl, add an egg, the fat (which I have never added hot), and enough milk or buttermilk, whatever I have on hand (I have used half and half in a pinch) until it's thin enough. I can eyeball the right amounts for my 8-inch skillet, which makes plenty for two with enough left over for small recipe of chicken and dressing. Definitely yes on the hot skillet.

 

Add-ins: All the aforementioned, with the exception that I don't like jalapenos, but have used chipotle; for corn I usually use frozen corn, make the batter thicker, and fry it in patties/fritters for an arepa-type side, great with chili or posole. Love grated cheddar in it, or cotija. Another add-in I like is chopped broccoli. I also used to make, when the kids were little, a "tamale pie," which had ground beef cooked with "Mexican"-ish seasonings, a healthy layer of cheese, and cornbread batter with corn poured over the top. 

 

The only instance in which I make a sweetened cornbread is rosemary cornbread that's more cakey (higher ratio of flour to meal) and designed to go with brunch-type dishes. A sweet taste ought not go with rosemary, but it does, somehow. Recipe here.

 

Oh, and cracklings. I've never had it with anything but pork cracklings, but I see no reason it shouldn't work with duck or chicken. There is NOTHING like a big pan of crackling cornbread with "new sorghum," i.e., sorghum molasses during the first couple of weeks after it's made, before it ages. With country style bacon or country ham, and stewed tomatoes. Feed me that and just go ahead and kill me now.

 

This brings back memories of the sorghum cooking on my grandpa's farm when I was a child growing up in western Kentucky.  The excitement would begin when the "pans" were brought out of the shed and set up over the kerosene burners and the big chopper/press was backed into place at one end and the motor checked and the belts and pulleys cleaned and oiled.  We kids were constantly warned off from getting near the moving parts but it was so captivating to watch the juice being turned from watery liquid to the thick molasses as it moved down the row of pans.  The most danger was from the bees and hornets that were also drawn to the sweet stuff but we couldn't resist dipping a finger in for a taste before being swatted on the behind and running off cackling with glee.

My grandpa would mix sorghum with butter in a "spread" we called "scumble" to spread on cornbread or biscuits.  

Grandpa also owned a grist mill so we never used store-bought cornmeal - it was a grow-your-own and grind-your-own and it had to be white corn - which I still prefer for cornbread.  Yellow corn was "feed corn" although many of the small farmers in the area only grew yellow corn and brought the dried stuff to the mill to be ground, coarse for animal feed, fine for baking (and sometimes cooking - mash to make liquor).  In the mid-40s it cost them 25 cents to have 50 pounds of corn ground.  Other mills charged more but my grandpa kept prices low because he knew many of them couldn't afford more.  He let them use the hand-cranked "shellers" for free.