New York Food Suppliers

[woofy]

4 weeks ago I went to Dean and Deluca's to buy a fillet of Mahi Mahi, it looked o.k., no more so I asked the guy working behind the counter when it was caught etc and he promised me it was fresh in , so I trusted him, got it home found out it was anything but fresh, it was inedibly old. I called, got the usuall, sure bring it back and we'll replace it, not much use when your guests are coming round in an hour. Not getting fish from there again I thought, still, the meat counter is good there, so I went again, bought 2 prime fillet mignons, 30 dollars or so, got them back, as soon as I opened them I knew they'd been frozen, they had that smell that beef gets when it's been frozen. Cooked them and guess what, they tasted like beef tastes after it's been frozen. Maybe I'll go back to my old stand by, Citarella I thought, bought a silvertip beef roast, not a great cut I know but I was feeling cheap, it had about as much flavour as a cheap battery farmed chicken. I'll not buy that again I thought, this week when I returned I figured on getting a long island duck to slow roast, one of my favorites, bought one ,16 dollars, just opened it and it's rotten, it's so awfull smelling, it stank my appartment out. It's disgusting so i called, I need to take it back to get a refund, at 6 o'clock on sunday night. I'm appalled generally with the quality of ingredients in New York, the Union square farmers market is great for vegetables but beyond that I'm so dissapointed, I used to think it was great untill I left for a year in London a year and a half ago and found the quality of meat, fish, poultry, cheese, everything there is of a far better quality to what I can get in New York, I fear new york is laghing behind in the culinary world.

[Luckylies]

While I agree about Dean and Deluca and Citarella having sub par items in their cases at all times, I practically never believe the fishmongers or butchers there. They really are just salespeople in white coats. I always ask to smell the fish, and try to pay attention when they are choosing my poultry. It's saved me quite a few trips. try florence meat market in the west village or really any family type butcher or fish store..world of difference.

[woofy]

While I agree about Dean and Deluca and Citarella having sub par items in their cases at all times, I practically never believe the fishmongers or butchers there. They really are just salespeople in white coats.  I always ask to smell the fish, and try to pay attention when they are choosing my poultry. It's saved me quite a few trips.  try florence meat market in the west village or really any family type butcher or fish store..world of difference. 

←

No, me neither but sometimes they get a bit funny about you smelling it and you certainly can't touch it. I'll try florence meat market but I don't know of any familly type fish stores in downtown new york and also I don't know of any familly butchers either for that matter. Do you?

[Luckylies]

you can touch it if you are wearing gloves. they'll give them to you, I've done it a bunch of times, especially to pick out sea urchins. Some of the guys dont love it but....who f'in cares, it's my overpriced dinner....

nonetheless...

florence meat market, ottomanelli and sons, espozito's and lobels are some good solid high end choices for meat, there is also chinatown which I love for pork and poultry.

For fish I prefer chinatown over everything..but you can try balducci and wild edibles, too.

I get pushed around alot when I buy meat and fish...and I really don't stand for it. So many butchers don't know the craft anymore and to them it's inconceivable that a customer might want their meat "a certain way" it's very frustrating.

I'm a friggin culinary professional, and I get treated like a little girl far to often to count at the meat counter...

anyhow, if it looks bad, it probably smells bad....

[woofy]

Yea, it drives me mad, they think your an idiot if you ask where any of it comes from too. How's the chinatown poultry, free range and organic by any chance?

[Luckylies]

erm. not likely. freshly killed though!

[emsny]

Don't sell the farmers' markets short for protein. True, there usedn't to be any decent meat/fish/poultry at the Greenmarkets, but this has changed. I buy impeccably fresh fish from Pura Vida (because they come to my little local Greenmarket on Wednesdays). The selection is limited to what the guy catches, which I can't say I view as a limitation at all. The best chickens I've had in NY are the belle rouge variety from Violet Hill Farm. Pork from Flying Pigs; lamb from Three Corner Field. Yes, beef is a problem. I agree that, say, Borough Market in London has impressive beef raised both honestly and professionally, and I wish we did too.

[woofy]

That flying pig pork isn't bad but it has been frozen which isn't great and it's sold in wierd kinds of shrink wrapped pieces.

[woofy]

I remember that lamb too, also strange little shrink wrapping, I bought some once, can't remember what cut but it was one that was supposedly good for grilling, it was litterally about a pound of fat and half a pound of meat, with it being in shrink wrap the amount of fat wasn't visible.

[Luckylies]

you should see the pork chops! soo fatty (which is nice sometimes, but when you're paying 1,000,00$ # you may reconsider)

[weinoo]

Let's not forget Jeffrey's meats in the Essex St. Market at a lower price point than any of the aforementioned butchers. There are also two fish markets in there, as well as a couple of new cheese stores that are service oriented by people that know their products.

And, now I'm gonna have to duck, but Whole Foods meat, fish, and poultry shouldn't be overlooked. I especially like the kosher, organic, free-range chickens they carry (Wise brand, and they run 2 - 3 lbs. whole)...and they usually have Bell & Evans ducks (sometimes, they have Grimaud whole ducks, which are great).

[adrman]

That flying pig pork isn't bad but it has been frozen which isn't great and it's sold in wierd kinds of shrink wrapped pieces.

←

Keep an eye out for Violet Hill's fresh pork and lamb (sometimes even rabbit). They don't always have it, but it's worth checking. I really felt bad about a month ago as I purchased a fresh pork shoulder roast, then ended up having to chuck it in the freezer because of an out of town trip. It still tasted pretty good last week though.

[cdh]

Interesting thread. One point raises questions, however:

Could somebody describe this off flavor that manifests itself in frozen beef? I can't say that I've ever been put off by frozen beef, and find it often quite delicious and not readily differentiable from unfrozen. What should I aim to taste for if I wanted to single out this defect?

[woofy]

I hate to say it but frozen beef tastes and smells like... frozen beef, theres nothing really I can compare it to. It's a bit of a funny one. The closest thing to it is it smells a bit like when meat oxidises a little.

[cdh]

Might the problem come from the defrosting rather than the freezing? When I cook a frozen steak, it goes from the freezer straight onto the grill such that the outside can be well and truly Maillardized, while the inside can remain cool if I want it to. Oxidized flavor sounds like something that might come from juices exuding and pooling around the beef while it defrosts. Maybe that's why I don't experience the problem.

[woofy]

I think your right there, funny things can happen when defrosting. Tricky little technique you have there.

[cdh]

My technique facilitates a really good black and blue... how I like steak. If you're in the market for medium rare, the char can get a bit out of control unless you dial back the heat on the grill after you flip the steak.

Edited December 4, 2006 by cdh (log)

[JohnL]

While I agree about Dean and Deluca and Citarella having sub par items in their cases at all times, I practically never believe the fishmongers or butchers there. They really are just salespeople in white coats.  I always ask to smell the fish, and try to pay attention when they are choosing my poultry. It's saved me quite a few trips.  try florence meat market in the west village or really any family type butcher or fish store..world of difference. 

←

I am in general agreement that the quality of fresh meats and poultry sold at many places in New York has declined a bit.

I shop quite often at Citarella on on the upper West Side and have never encountered any fish, fowl or meat that wasn't less than fresh and of very good quality.

If you bought a prepackaged duck then it is quite possible that the problem you note may not be the market's fault. I do not believe that the upper West side store sells any meat of poultry that is pre wrapped--this makes it near impossible to sell something so obviously "off."

That said. I believe that in Manhattan, there has been a trend toward large "gourmet" markets that sell everything from produce to meat, fish, poultry as well as condiments and other packaged items and everything else under the sun including prepared foods for takeout.

They are competing with and in many cases, replacing smaller more specialized markets that once thrived in most every neighborhood. See Akron Market, Jefferson Market, Nevada market and myriad local butchers and fish mongers.

I also believe that many of these mega "food courts" have been expanding --with branches all over the place as well as mail order and internet operations. Once truly great markets that really got it right like Balducci's and Dean and Delucca have been, spun off, bought, sold, expanded--see Citarella, Fairway, Jefferson Market, Zabar's. The result is the inevitable decline in quality and service.

Add in the growing presence of places like Whole Foods and the cost of real estate here and it is easy to see why this is happening.

take the original Balducci in the Village. IMOP this place got it right. There wasn't anything sold there that wasn't top quality and the prepared foods were wonderful. The service was outstanding. They offered the best of everything. I recently walked through Grace's market on the upper east side a bastion of mediocrity--yeah one can find some really good items--but one has to wade through a lot of crap. Bought by Sutton Gourmet (I have no idea who owns this once family owned and operated store now) expanded to the upper West side a Balducci's offering uneven quality and service--I was amazed that things could decline so rapidly.

The old Jefferson market has moved and expanded, while currently, better than many similar operations, it is a shadow of its former self. Once this market competed with Balducci's--across the avenue--if one couldn't provide a perfect steak the other was ready with it.

IMOP convenience has become the scourge of quality. We are all guilty--I have never seen so much oohing and aahing over places like Whole Foods. Again, there are some high quality items there but for the most part this is nothing more than a glorified Food Emporium. The lack of dedicated and knowledgeable service at these places is awful!

I would say that areas like Arthur Avenue remain (often tenuously) the best of all worlds. Neighborhoods of competing (healthily) smaller shops dedicated to offering the best quality food items--knowing what they do best and executing it. Want cured meats and deli--Mike's, bakery items Artuso-- bread--fish, poultry meat--there are two or three options for each--the neighborhood is a veritable food court.

As for much of Manhattan:

Most of the small neighborhood butchers and bakers and fish mongers are long gone.

The old food court markets have had to play the expansion game and have lost (or are losing) the ability to offer the best of many different items as well as knowledgeable and caring service.

There is hope--some of the farmer's markets are doing a good job. Places like Ninth Avenue are still lined with small specialty shops--though I wonder if they are one more Whole Foods location away from extinction as more and more high rises with five thousand a month one bedrooms and plenty of retail space for another Starbucks etc go up.

[woofy]

Hate to say it but the duck wasn't pre wrapped. The fish is pretty good at the downtown citarella I should say, though i've never bought fish that was still stiff in New York. Also I got super amonia smelling cheese from a really expensive cheese place in Union Square market a couple of weeks back. I think Whole foods has a lot to answer for, they are a celebration of sheer mediocrity. Also I find there marketing almost fraudulant, lot's of big signs about local seasonal organic food next to pile's of mango's and pineaplles (in NY). If you shop really hard in NY you can find good stuff I find but if you want that extra level up, the really special stuff your usually out of look.

[larrylee]

For meat and fish, my wife and I usually buy from specialty markets such as the aforementioned Wild Edibles, Ottomanelli's, The Lobster Place, etc. And as Luckylies says, you have to be pushy or you have to settle for what you get. I admit I usually don't get pushy, but I haven't really been steered wrong by the smaller places, either.

I've been meaning to try some of the meat and poultry options at the farmer's markets but I've only tried the free range eggs and Flying Pigs bacon (really tasty, IMO). I haven't gotten around to trying the fish or meat cuts yet.

But as a matter of principle I would generall avoid buying poultry and meat from most markets. If you lurk around the butcher's counter at Whole Foods frequently enough in the course of a week you'll get an idea for when they restock, which can help.

[Luckylies]

as Luckylies says, you have to be pushy or you have to settle for what you get. I admit I usually don't get pushy,

←

sometimes it's hard! these guys usually have big knives!

[johnder]

Guys,

This topic seems to be drifting off from a conversation about D&D and Cittarella to be more of talk about organic chickens. Let's try to keep this thread on topic, I will be happy to move the chicken thread to a topic of it's own if people wish to continue to discuss that.

john

[woofy]

To bring it back on topic, today I opened up the parmesan which I bought from Citarella and it had some mold on it. Nice. With regard to the chickens, battery/commercial farmed chickens taste of nothing and there is quite a difference to a chicken being in a barn together and being in a cage where they can't even turn around.

[Luckylies]

? was it pre-grated?

as far as I can remember the parm from citarella is wrapped in cellophane....

huh... we'll at least this one you can chip off and continue to eat!

[docsconz]

woofy, I must say that you seem to have the worst luck at these stores. Does someone there not like you? Fortunately for me, i have not shared your misfortune at either place, although I do not shop much at D&D simply because I believe that they are vastly overpriced. I have shopped at Citarella with excellent results though they aren't exactly inexpensive either.