That Sweet Enemy

[Carrot Top]

There is no superior culinary tradition, there are just culinary illuminations within each culinary tradition.

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This phrase is memorable. It is not only exceptionally nicely turned, but also glows with a classic (not garden-variety) sort of truth.

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I think it's very gracious for someone from a country with an impeccable culinary tradition to grant equality to all others, but I beg to differ,

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Seriously, it does not seem to me that Ptipois was attempting to grant equality to all others through being gracious. I think she believes what she wrote.

It's a shame, darling, that you can not see the light. ( )

Edited January 8, 2007 by Carrot Top (log)

[Busboy]

There is no superior culinary tradition, there are just culinary illuminations within each culinary tradition.

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This phrase is memorable. It is not only exceptionally nicely turned, but also glows with a classic (not garden-variety) sort of truth.

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I think it's very gracious for someone from a country with an impeccable culinary tradition to grant equality to all others, but I beg to differ,

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Seriously, it does not seem to me that Ptipois was attempting to grant equality to all others through being gracious. I think she believes what she wrote.

It's a shame, darling, that you too can not see the light. ( )

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I'm absolutely with you, except for the disagreeing with you part. I never meant to imply that ptipois was any less than fully sincere.

[Carrot Top]

I'm willing to admit to having at least two dogs in this race.

Why not.

At the moment I am edging towards agreement that French could be better, at least better than our food. I do not think they make "Fig Newton Minis" in France (or at least if they do you might want to hide to eat them, not stand proudly like we do here. . ) and most particularly they would not make them with this newfangled "100 percent whole grain" recipe which, having just tossed a handful into my mouth (unashamedly at that!) I am sitting here chewing on something that tastes like a mini Fig Newton tossed in mouse droppings.

[hjshorter]

It's a shame, darling, that you can not see the light.  ( )

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I wouldn't feel too sorry for him. He knows exactly what he's doing.

This is spot on:

... our mertitocracy is rewarding restaurants whose merits tend more towards our cultural strengths -- efficiency, standardization, a kind of faux mulitculturalism, creating wealth -- and less towards what most of us would think of as culinary excellence.

[Pan]

[...]The French have always been perfectly able to cook and serve dreadful food throughout the ages, and they still do, and that is certainly not going to stop. It all depends on the socioeconomic context and people who visit France with the fortunate purpose of experiencing its food just do not have access to the whole picture. Non-French people who gather on a high-quality food forum like eG have, happily, no experience of it, partly because their itinerary is not likely to include that and also because they can afford not experiencing it.[...]

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Well, in the days before eGullet, I was a student in Nice and did have the misfortune to experience some horrendous French food. Fortunately, even in those days, I was on a fellowship that reimbursed me on a reasonable per diem rate, so that I was able to avoid bad food most of the time and, indeed, eat very well on a student's budget. But I did also have an expensive, mediocre meal in Paris back then. Now, having said all that, the profusion of good food at boulangeries and charcuteries and cafes and brasseries is such that it was a lot easier to have inexpensive good food in Nice (maybe more so than Paris) than in most comparably-sized U.S. cities. I think that was clear. And if we extend the comparison to Siena, where I spent two summers as a student (comparing it to, say, Sarasota), the difference between that city and comparably-sized U.S. cities is probably even starker. I found it hard to find bad food in Siena. That's what I call, in your words, "excellence from bottom to top."

Edited January 9, 2007 by Pan (log)

[Pan]

Every President for the last 100 years can be safely categorized as an intellectual.

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We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I think we define the word "intellectual" differently. (Perhaps that's partly because I'm a professor and so are my parents? I don't know your background, but you seem pretty intellectual, yourself, and more so than some presidents I can think of.)

[...]Your Clinton example is particularly apt, if you want to stick with it. He was a regular guy in reality, I think it is fair to say he was disadvantaged in his youth. Yet through hard work, determination and intellect, he rose above his humble beginnings. His success was based upon merit, not birthright.

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Yes, I agree that he is an example of someone who did succeed on merit.

Kerry lost, and is struggling in his ambitions now, because he is perceived to be an individual who believes his birthright and his membership in the well heeled Martha's Vineyard yacht club entitles him to the oval office. This is a direct result of his words and actions.

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He's a lousy campaigner, but his loss might have had a lot more to do with his waffling, not to mention some very dubious events in Ohio and Florida. There have been several well-heeled New Englanders who have become President. One of them was a charismatic speaker, who actually lost to Nixon but became President. Another was George Prescott Bush, who defeated another New Englander who ran a terrible campaign, and benefitted from the support for Reagan. Politics are complicated.

[hathor]

Having taken a short thinking break to do the school run (amazingly productive time for homeworkers  ) it strikes me that this line of thinking leads to one inevitable point: for people who care to examine cookery in any depth, the idea of a 'national cuisine/cookery' can only ever be a generalisation.

Such generalisations will always be subject to assault from single examples which leaves the question of how useful the generalisation is to us.

I guess we have to make certain generalisations if we're to discuss international food at anything other than the level of strict personal experience, but this discussion (for which, many thanks BTW) has brought up some really interesting questions for me - some specific, some frighteningly large.

1. Brits often point to the presence of UK born chefs of international stature as an indication that the UK is 'back on the culinary map'. I wonder if Ramsey and Blumethal say any more about British food than say, Adria does about Spanish or Keller about American. To me they just prove that we too can conform to a kind of 3* internationalism. Doesn't globalisation of chef's personal 'brands' inevitably lead towards a higher quality version of the 'International Cuisine' that polluted hotels and airports in the 70s?

2. How does something get to be French? Take something as utterly 'French' as Careme's four mother sauces. Surely liaison, thickened meat stock, roux and milk have all occurred or would have come into being elsewhere. In fact Careme's genius was to restrict the variations rather than to invent new ones.

3. In some way or other doesn't 'National cuisine/cookery' owe as much to the preconceptions of foreigners as it does to the foodways of the population?

4. Our preconceptions about food history, which we imagine stretch unbroken into prehistory don't stand up to much scrutiny. A lot of it is more recent in conception, attributable to a few points in media and comes via a class of interlocutor which narrows as it goes back.

Is any of it useful to literate foodies in 2007? We're a self defining group of appreciators with access to a world's worth of ingredients and knowhow. Food is still not taken seriously as a topic for historical or scientific study and as a result we cling to the preconceptions of Victorian 'thinkers' who could never have imagined the access we have.

Isn't it time to question harder? Is it not time, like art historians before us, to tip a few sacred cows?

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All good questions. What's an example of a Victorian preconception that you would like debunked?

[Carrot Top]

Actually it seems to me that this whole period of food history and food ways that are being discussed have many core parts that started during the Enlightenment.

But "Victorianism" is a lovely word and thought to focus upon in terms of all manners of influences of things, too. One knee-jerks to Victorianism in ways that one does not to Enlightenment.

[molto e]

I have not read the entire thread, but here are the links to the Arizona writers' story and his blog that Tim writes about:

Story

Blog

I did not take this at all in the way that Tim did in relation to Howard's article and what do I know...I live in Phoenix.

Molto E

Edited January 9, 2007 by molto e (log)

[hjshorter]

Thanks for the link. This reads like p0rn:

n Brittany, that means seafood. For 33 euros (about $43), I feasted on a seafood tray loaded with right-out-of-the-ocean oysters, moules de bouchot (mussels farmed on ropes, so there are no impurities or sand), bigorneaux (winkles - like teeny snails), bulots (whelks - like big sea snails), a whole crab, langoustines and several species of shrimp and clams. The utensils required to get at the fare look like they came from a surgeon's kit: small needles to withdraw the winkles; a long, sharp-hooked prong to pry out the whelks; little forks for the mussels and clams; and a ferocious cracker for the crab.

And I could barely stay awake until the end of this sentence:

Here is the complete list of snoozy main dishes I couldn't face: seafood linguine, herb-roasted chicken, rosemary lamb chops, filet of beef, stuffed pork tenderloin, brie risotto and catch of the day.

Perhaps Mr Seftel might have a different opinion of US food in another city?

[Busboy]

(Thanks much to molto e for his detective work. Even on this web thing, doing homework counts)

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Hmmm. A little schoolgirl crush-y. Some gratuitous French-bashing. And I'm betting there's some crusty old guys from Maine who'd road trip to Phoenix to kick this guy's ass for suggesting that Breton lobster are better than our own. And, one factual error: when I was buying oysters in the market this non-"r" July, in Uzes, there sure as hell were actual French folks in line with me. And no wonder -- if they weren't October oysters, they were still damn good.

Actually -- and this doesn't necessarily contradict Tim's larger point so much as suggest that his whipping boy was ill-chosen -- it's a completely fine piece about eating in France that rests on pretty defensible position: "Food isn't merely a trendy topic of conversation [in France]; it's an elemental part of life. That's why the subject is endlessly discussed, debated and analyzed by everyone, not just elites anxious to be on top of the latest food fad."

While he takes his local restaurant scene to task, this is not a self-hating American piece. And all of us, whether we've just gotten back from France (ask me about Equinox) or not can identify with this:

" I had a new, independent restaurant on my review schedule for next week, the kind of place I generally look forward to. But after looking over the dispiriting menu, and with the memory of my trip still fresh, I just couldn't bring myself to go. Here is the complete list of snoozy main dishes I couldn't face: seafood linguine, herb-roasted chicken, rosemary lamb chops, filet of beef, stuffed pork tenderloin, brie risotto and catch of the day..."

As they say, reality bites. Good for Howard for pointing it out. If there was more criticism and less cheerleading -- and if more people could be pursuaded of the delights of dining, rather than the efficiencies of refueling -- restaurants would be better here. Whether the French are "better" or "worse" than we are, they certainly set a reasonable example and Seftel should be lauded for pointing it put.

PS: No wonder he has a crush of France. If you like seafood, Phoenix is 500 miles from the ocean and a million miles from Brittany. When I was in Denver, they kept saying "it's flown in fresh!" but it still kind of sucked.

[menon1971]

I saw some sample menus while in Phoenix that looked quite interesting. However, I am a when in Rome kind of guy and wanted good Southwestern food. Sadly without transportation from the hotel my dining was less than stellar. I did try menudo for the first time, though.

[molto e]

I saw some sample menus while in Phoenix that looked quite interesting. However, I am a when in Rome kind of guy and wanted good Southwestern food. Sadly without transportation from the hotel my dining was less than stellar. I did try menudo for the first time, though.

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I feel the point that Howard was trying to make is that Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the country and it does have a lack of chef driven concepts. That is not to say that Phoenix does not have some chefs that deliver on a national level. A few examples of chefs that deliver the goods would be:

Chef Kevin Binkley of Binkley's Restaurant

Chef Nobuo Fukuda of Sea Saw ("Best New Chef"- Food and Wine Magazine, 2-time James Beard Finalist "Best Chef Southwest")

Chef Chris Bianco of Bianco's Pizzeria (James Beard "Best Chef Southwest, named Best Pizza in the country..ask Oprah)

Chef Bradford Thompson of Mary Elaine's (James Beard "Best Chef Southwest" , "Best New Chef"- Food and Wine Magazine)

Chef Brian Lewis of Vu Restaurant

Chef Matt Carter of Zinc Bistro

Larry White of Lo-Lo's Fried Chicken and Waffles

Just to name a few...

Edited January 9, 2007 by molto e (log)

[menon1971]

I saw some sample menus while in Phoenix that looked quite interesting. However, I am a when in Rome kind of guy and wanted good Southwestern food. Sadly without transportation from the hotel my dining was less than stellar. I did try menudo for the first time, though.

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I feel the point that Howard was trying to make is that Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the country and it does have a lack of chef driven concepts. That is not to say that Phoenix does not have some chefs that deliver on a national level. A few examples of chefs that deliver the goods would be:

Chef Kevin Binkley of Binkley's Restaurant

Chef Nobuo Fukuda of Sea Saw ("Best New Chef"- Food and Wine Magazine, 2-time James Beard Finalist "Best Chef Southwest")

Chef Chris Bianco of Bianco's Pizzeria (James Beard "Best Chef Southwest, named Best Pizza in the country..ask Oprah)

Chef Bradford Thompson of Mary Elaine's (James Beard "Best Chef Southwest" , "Best New Chef"- Food and Wine Magazine)

Chef Brian Lewis of Vu Restaurant

Just to name a few...

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I heard good things about Vu, and wanted to go to Bianco's, but everyone I spoke to said that a two hour wait is customary. Phoenix is daunting in size..........

[molto e]

I heard good things about Vu, and wanted to go to Bianco's, but everyone I spoke to said that a two hour wait is customary.

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Try about three hours to eat the Prince of Pizza's Pies, but they do take a reservation for a party of 6. If you can not find 6 people, I am sure you could make a reservation and get people from the back of the line to fill your table .

[Busboy]

I saw some sample menus while in Phoenix that looked quite interesting. However, I am a when in Rome kind of guy and wanted good Southwestern food. Sadly without transportation from the hotel my dining was less than stellar. I did try menudo for the first time, though.

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I feel the point that Howard was trying to make is that Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the country and it does have a lack of chef driven concepts. That is not to say that Phoenix does not have some chefs that deliver on a national level. A few examples of chefs that deliver the goods would be:

Chef Kevin Binkley of Binkley's Restaurant

Chef Nobuo Fukuda of Sea Saw ("Best New Chef"- Food and Wine Magazine, 2-time James Beard Finalist "Best Chef Southwest")

Chef Chris Bianco of Bianco's Pizzeria (James Beard "Best Chef Southwest, named Best Pizza in the country..ask Oprah)

Chef Bradford Thompson of Mary Elaine's (James Beard "Best Chef Southwest" , "Best New Chef"- Food and Wine Magazine)

Chef Brian Lewis of Vu Restaurant

Chef Matt Carter of Zinc Bistro

Larry White of Lo-Lo's Fried Chicken and Waffles

Just to name a few...

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Interesting if we're talking about local food traditions.

A pizzaria. Two French joints. An Asian place, featuring seafood. A resort place (usually a red flag, but there are exceptions) whose own website leads with: "European elegance in decor, table settings, ambiance and service characterizes Mary Elaine's, featuring soft jazz in the lounge and a seasonal menu of Modern French cuisine." Soft jazz.

And Binkley's (no menu on the website. Though, please, if you like this place have them rewrite the lame-as-hell text on their website).

These may be great restaurants, but they are most certainly not an advertisement for a fine indigenous American culinary tradition.

[molto e]

Interesting if we're talking about local food traditions. 

A pizzaria.  Two French joints. An Asian place, featuring seafood. A resort place (usually a red flag, but there are exceptions) whose own website leads with: "European elegance in decor, table settings, ambiance and service characterizes Mary Elaine's, featuring soft jazz in the lounge and a seasonal menu of Modern French cuisine." Soft jazz.

And Binkley's (no menu on the website.  Though, please, if you like this place have them rewrite the lame-as-hell text on their website). 

These may be great restaurants, but they are most certainly not an advertisement for a fine indigenous American culinary tradition.

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Busboy,

I assure you that these chefs are delivering on a National level, don't knock em' until you try them.

Molto E

[Ptipois]

(...) That's what I call, in your words, "excellence from bottom to top."

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Yes, the same excellence from bottom to top* that I found in the US using the same discriminating skills as you showed in France. My point exactly.

What you are explaining actually is that, exposed to the phenomenon of bad eating in France, you were able to avoid it successfully. Therefore you have no true knowledge of its nature and of its extent, because you had a choice.

What I've been trying to say here is that, unless you (not you individually, but most eG members as a crowd of discriminating food lovers) weren't raised in France from babyhood, had to go to school there, partake of food in many different households of various social levels, worked in offices as an employee and not as a "cadre", experienced supermarket food, "baking terminal" bread and many types of collective catering, plus the growing number of French people who can't cook an egg, you will never have as clear and defined an idea of what bad food in France can be as I have, and will not have an opportunity, in that respect, to be fairer to other countries, including the "Anglo-Saxon" ones.

My point is also that I have somewhat found variations from one country to another regarding this "excellence from bottom to top", but I never found them to be of much amplitude, once the discrimination I mentioned was applied. And the more I know foods all over the world, the less I believe in those variations. I must also say that France, in its present state, though it rates high, is not rating the highest.

In this "excellence from bottom to top", I do not only include the quality of food, cuisine and products. I also include what I call the "foodie" factor — the extent to which ordinary people will go to find and get the best, and avoid bad food. There again France does well, but not best of all.

(* edit: "excellence from bottom to top" were Docsconz's words, not mine.)

Edited January 9, 2007 by Ptipois (log)

[Tim Hayward]

All good questions. What's an example of a Victorian preconception that you would like debunked?

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Where do I start?

Here's an example. Like every other hack in the country I've been asked to do stuff on the CITES caviar restrictions and the foie gras bans.

In the middle of the last century, foie gras was a weird local speciality in rural France, caviar was eaten by fishermen on the Caspian and any peasant who managed to pull a sturgeon out of the river and was hungry enough to eat the eggs.

Both commodities caught on with wealthy diners. They were sold on a sort of quasi-lucullan image of scarcity and, in the case of foie gras, fully embracing the cruelty of its production - something which at the time put no-one off, rather adding to the appeal.

Both spawned huge industries and have remained the ne plus ultra of luxury food to this day - in spite of the fact that distribution and the comparative wealth of diners have now removed any scarcity.

Cockscombs and testicles, both of which enjoyed similar popularity at the time are now forgotten.

For me that puts a really interesting spin on our present moral 'problems' with foie gras and caviar.

Now you can argue that foie gras tastes damn good (I agree) and that random cock bits taste like crap (I also agree).

But I reckon it's vital to know all the reasons we feel the way we do about these foods - and for writers, it's aduty to inform where we can.

And here's why.

Researching a piece on the CITES ban I got to interview the biggest (legal) importer of caviar to the UK. I was looking at tins of the stuff, some costing thousands of pounds and I asked him who his customers were.

He told me it was now just hotels who bought it in 'garnish quantities' and airlines - who bought in bulk.

"Foodies know it doesn't really taste that good, rich people are too smart to waste their money on it. It's just idiots flying first class on company expenses - other people's money. I can't shift this stuff in delis anymore but if some executive, flying first-class on the company dollar doesn't get his symbol of luxury, he'll fly another airline next time".

As a (retired) marketeer I recognise that as a 'created need'. It's irrelevant out of its original context. It should be debunked

[Ptipois]

And, one factual error: when I was buying oysters in the market this non-"r" July, in Uzes, there sure as hell were actual French folks in line with me. And no wonder -- if they weren't October oysters, they were still damn good.

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This "months in r" thing is quite outdated anyway, originating in the days when transportation to inland locations was slow (oxcart or at best horsecart) and naturally oysters kept better during cool and cold months. Actually oysters are fattier and tastier in June and July, which is the time when people of Marennes and Oléron like them (and shuck them while making fun of the Parisians who, because of that "r" myth, eat oysters at their worst time).

This is not the only factual error and misrepresentation that can be found in this article — Cancale being described as "a charming fishing village" and "oyster capital of France" (give me a break) was a lot of fun —, but the whole piece is so solidly built of gross clichés and terrible writing that I won't go into details. Once again, it's the kind of journalistic writing about France that brings flush to a French forehead... But I'm used to that now.

[Busboy]

Interesting if we're talking about local food traditions. 

A pizzaria.  Two French joints. An Asian place, featuring seafood. A resort place (usually a red flag, but there are exceptions) whose own website leads with: "European elegance in decor, table settings, ambiance and service characterizes Mary Elaine's, featuring soft jazz in the lounge and a seasonal menu of Modern French cuisine." Soft jazz.

And Binkley's (no menu on the website.  Though, please, if you like this place have them rewrite the lame-as-hell text on their website). 

These may be great restaurants, but they are most certainly not an advertisement for a fine indigenous American culinary tradition.

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Busboy,

I assure you that these chefs are delivering on a National level, don't knock em' until you try them.

Molto E

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I expressed myself poorly if that's the way my post was taken -- what I was getting at is that all these great chefs are drawing not so much on an American culinary tradition but on other culinary traditions; that however good individual chefs may be, they still find it necessary or desirable to look beyond our borders for inspiration.

[annecros]

What are ya drinkin' Old Foodie?

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Phew! I couldn't have drunk enough of anything to keep up with that debate - Thank Goodness for our hemispheric time difference which ensured it was all resolved and back to food while I was blissfully sleeping.

Now, over my early morning cuppa I feel obliged to ponder my current favourite theory of the three degrees of separation that separate any particular person and a specific food item.

Adlai Stevenson and rhubarb, perhaps?

Janet

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Easy he was Governor of Illinois, and there is a rhubarb festival that has been held at the Governor Small Park in Aledo, IL.

http://www.rhubarbinfo.com/rhubarb-festivals.html#TOC12

I think you could use Stevenson as a link to rhubarb for others.

[annecros]

Every President for the last 100 years can be safely categorized as an intellectual.

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We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I think we define the word "intellectual" differently. (Perhaps that's partly because I'm a professor and so are my parents? I don't know your background, but you seem pretty intellectual, yourself, and more so than some presidents I can think of.)

[...]Your Clinton example is particularly apt, if you want to stick with it. He was a regular guy in reality, I think it is fair to say he was disadvantaged in his youth. Yet through hard work, determination and intellect, he rose above his humble beginnings. His success was based upon merit, not birthright.

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Yes, I agree that he is an example of someone who did succeed on merit.

Kerry lost, and is struggling in his ambitions now, because he is perceived to be an individual who believes his birthright and his membership in the well heeled Martha's Vineyard yacht club entitles him to the oval office. This is a direct result of his words and actions.

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He's a lousy campaigner, but his loss might have had a lot more to do with his waffling, not to mention some very dubious events in Ohio and Florida. There have been several well-heeled New Englanders who have become President. One of them was a charismatic speaker, who actually lost to Nixon but became President. Another was George Prescott Bush, who defeated another New Englander who ran a terrible campaign, and benefitted from the support for Reagan. Politics are complicated.

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Who me? I just fell off the turnip truck. I've got a lot to learn.

Kennedy's father is the rags to riches story there (new money), and JFK himself was every mother's darling, dashing successful son. The senior Bush made darn sure he was photographed cleaning his own catch at Kennebunkport, just as GW and Jeb have adopted the southern states they live in, and the lifestyles associated with the typical resident.

Politics are complicated, and more touchy - feely than many would care to acknowledge. Having and showing a great intellect are two separate issues that are not necessarily mutually inclusive.

Edited January 9, 2007 by annecros (log)

[annecros]

What I've been trying to say here is that, unless you (not you individually, but most eG members as a crowd of discriminating food lovers) weren't raised in France from babyhood, had to go to school there, partake of food in many different households of various social levels, worked in offices as an employee and not as a "cadre", experienced supermarket food, "baking terminal" bread and many types of collective catering, plus the growing number of French people who can't cook an egg, you will never have as clear and defined an idea of what bad food in France can be, and will not have an opportunity, in that respect, to be fairer to other countries, including the "Anglo-Saxon" ones.

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Our youngest daughter was very fortunate in that her High School French department had a very active foreign exchange program. My daughter took three trips, and I in turn hosted three children over four years from a little villiage near Charmonix.

Those kids were absolutely obssesed with blow pops and jolly ranchers. They would literally bring pounds and pounds of wonderful chocolate over with them, and went home with suitcases loaded with cheap hard candy. When asked what they wanted to eat, it was always hamburgers, and they scarfed hamburgers and hotdogs like they were scarce and precious, always oohing and ahing. I made sure they got real hamburgers while they were here. I had enough sense not to try to compete with the food they have at home - and made it a point to slow cook BBQ, make tacos and nachos and chili - that sort of thing. Hopefully they weren't just being polite, but based upon consumption they seemed to enjoy. The biggest mistake some of the host families made was trying to serve fondue to these kids. Big mistake.

Culinarily speaking, my daughter prefered the home cooking to the foods they were exposed to in the week they spent in Paris.

But the Charms Blowpop phenomenon still makes me smile and shake my head.

[Carrot Top]

these great chefs are drawing not so much on an American culinary tradition but on other culinary traditions; that however good individual chefs may be, they still find it necessary or desirable to look beyond our borders for inspiration.

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True everywhere at some point in time, don't you think?

Even with the French, or any other country's culinary culture, at some point in time.

Across the world, throughout history, food exchanges and all the ideas that go along with food preparation have had sparks of inspiration through looking beyond borders.

Sometimes through travel and trade, sometimes through aggression in the form of wars.

What "cuisine" can be said to be pure and of a single culture, really?

As far as "national" cuisines go, the idea of the nation-state and the concept of nationalism that occured during the Enlightenment might have a bearing on these concepts of static national cuisines. Boundaries drawn, the mind shaping the nation and what the idea of nation would include, with the "indigenous" food as part of this.

Edited January 9, 2007 by Carrot Top (log)