France - "Smoke and Mirrors?"

[paul o' vendange]

Hello all:

We have some very good friends recently returned from France, who spent time mainly in Paris, Burgundy, and Alsace.

While they enjoyed Alsace, and found its food and wine up to expectations, they were horribly disappointed with the balance of their journey - in particular, they felt Atelier was a wash, and Burgundian wines were, in her words,

"probably the biggest surprise to both of us was just how bad the bad wines were. I’ve had bad wine everywhere, but I’ve never had so many obviously flawed bottles in the US. After pouring one $35 bottle down the drain and having another one that ____ choked down (but I couldn’t) we were afraid to buy wines in Burgundy. We knew there were magnificent wines out there, but the hubris of the people there who insisted that any wine made on the Sacred Ground of Burgundy had to be good was hard to overcome."

This does not square with my impressions at all. Regarding wine, it has always been my experience that French wines, generally, have always been done with an eye to food, while Californians, at least, experienced a rebirth on the heels of competitive accolades - and this necessarily drove an industry hell-bent on in your face presence, balance be damned. Much the same, for me, regarding other new world wines. I do love them, but usually as stand alone drinks - I don't find they marry as well with food, generally.

This was all spawned, in part, by my surprise at their negative reports of their trip, and by her strong disagreement with Craig Camp's assessments in this forum, "Kissing the Frogs."

The first post really rubs me the wrong way. I think the boat has gone on the whole “nobody makes wine like the French” thing. I’m hardly an expert, but I’m not a novice either, and I think the vast majority of the French wine industry is kept going by smoke, mirrors, and hubris.

Those with experience, please chime in. What is your experience of the state of French wines, and French regional cooking? I realize this is a huge question, but off-the-cuff responses welcomed.

Edited November 7, 2006 by paul o' vendange (log)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

It's very sad that your friends had such a poor experience. I've not been to Alsace so can only hope to duplicate their positive visit. It is not surprising that they found Atelier lacking, but you can find a discussion regarding its merits on many other threads. That they had such disappointment in Burgandy is puzzling. We spend parts of our summers there, and have never had to jettison a $35 bottle. Without too much input, we find enormously satisfying wines and lovely in-home and small establishment cooking in every department of France that we visit. I can only hope that your friends will enjoy better meals and drink at another visit.

[Busboy]

We spent three weeks in the South of France this summer and I remain retrospectively agog at the three and four-course meals we were getting for the price of a single main course in Washington DC. Not that these were Michelin-starred places, just consistently very good local restaurants. As my wife and I observed, the "level of mediocrity" in France is noticeably higher than in the states.

As for the wine, we were playing it cheap (hence the lack of Michelin stars this trip), but we found many an excellent bottle for less than 20 euros, and one of the great things about French restaurants is that it's aften as hard to spend more than 40 dollars on a bottle of wine in France as it is to find one for less than 40 in the U.S.

I wonder if your friends had a run of bad luck. Or if Burgundy is a special case.

[SWISS_CHEF]

We have been trying to come to terms with France for the past decade. We have spent almost all of our vacation time there during that period and logged thousands and thousands of kilometers on our car. We have eaten in dirty bistros and 3 star restaurants and we feel we really have a good feel for the true France, its people and its institutions.

Last year we went to Piedmont for the first time. We rented a cottage in October for a week and by February we had bought a house. Everything fit for us, the people, the food, the wine, the history (not to mention the cost)...it all felt so much more comfortable for us than France.

We find the French tolerate you and the Italians welcome you into their family.

Did you ever move out of a neighborhood and wonder why you ever lived there so long in the first place? THAT is the feeling!

[Felice]

Hmmm, well I am certainly no expert either, however from everything I know Burgundy is one of the most difficult appellations and has a reputation of having not only some of the most amazing wines you will ever drink, but also some pretty terrible ones. In Jancis Robinson’s How to Taste she writes

“If red Bordeaux is a reasonably reliable commodity, red burgundy can be infuriatingly variable…But when Burgundy is good, it is more thrilling than all but a handful of red wines from Bordeaux.”

In The New France by Andrew Jefford he writes that unfortunately “much red burgundy remains, even today, of insultingly low quality: raw, thin, inarticulate” this is not to say that he dismisses burgundy wines, quite the contrary, but admits that there are poor wines out there.

I think this is one of the difficulties with French wines, you have to do your homework and it’s complicated. But, it is also what makes French wine so exciting. You can really taste the difference between a wine made with the same grapes, by the same wine maker, but just a different part of the vineyard. It’s the winemakers job to bring out the terroir in the wine which is why French wines are labelled by region and not grape variety, the terroir is what makes each wine unique and the wine makers responsibility is to bring out that uniqueness.

Maybe the difference is that many New World wines are being produced for a mass market and therefore are made for consistency and big fruit flavours. Since they can blend their grapes, they have more room to play around and therefore are more consumer friendly. In France if a wine has an AOC they can’t blend, they can’t cheat and have to work with what nature has given them—the land, the weather and the grapes—so it is more difficult.

To say however that the French wine industry is smoke and mirror though, to me, is simply not true. I have met many wine makers at tastings since living here and the good ones are passionate about what they do and are not making wine for profits, they are making it because this is what they love to do.

Are there people in France who insist that French wine is better just because it is French and rest on its laurels? Of course. But one or two bad bottles of wine is not an indication of the entire industry. I think your friends had bad luck. They probably went to some touristy parts of each area, were sold bad quality wine at high prices and naturally left with a bad taste in their mouth. It’s a shame, but in one of the most visited places on earth, it’s bound to happen.

[Ptipois]

Are there people in France who insist that French wine is better just because it is French and rest on its laurels? Of course.  But one or two bad bottles of wine is not an indication of the entire industry.  I think your friends had bad luck.  They probably went to some touristy parts of each area, where sold bad quality wine at high prices and naturally left with a bad taste in their mouth.  It’s a shame, but in one of the most visited places on earth, it’s bound to happen.

←

Exactly.

I never fail to be amazed by reports like "We were disappointed by one restaurant, we had a few bad bottles, well what is this thing with France?"

Relax, it's only a country.

Edited November 7, 2006 by Ptipois (log)

[bleudauvergne]

Paul, I am sorry that your friend left dissapointed. Sometimes we have big rock candy mountain writing to blame as well, writing that extols the virtues of France as if it is a happy lucky place where you just sit back and sip the nectar of the gods and feast from the great cornucopia of the land.

I have found that life is hard in its own way everywhere in the world. France is a country where certainly a great beauty lies underneath, and knowledge is a virtue, just like any other place. But people don't mention that. You have got to scratch the surface and dig.

About the wine, they should never have spent €35 on a bottle and felt they had to throw it out. It may have been cooked (a likely possibility given the weather last summer, and depending on the conditions at the wine seller). In any case, if you pay €35 for a bottle of wine you can reasonably expect it to live up to a certain quality, and any caviste should take it back and replace it for you if its been cooked or corked or whatever. Pouring it out is kind of a wierd thing to do. And kind of melodramatic.

Hiring a knowlegeable guide who will steer you clear of the tourist traps and can show you what they know about a place is useful when you are here only for a short time. Otherwise you definitely have to be prepared to do some homework, that's true.

[paul o' vendange]

Thank you one and all - very apt points and much appreciated. I must admit some self service here - my wife and I are planning a possible move to France next year; I have enjoyed French food and wine for decades, but only from afar, and their report so flew in the face of everything I had come to know, that I wanted to get other opinions from people who either live there, or visit frequently. I wondered if they had set the bar so fancifully high that a couple of bad experiences unduly soured them, as you allude to, Lucy. As well, your market photo thread, read a few years ago, now, was enough to seal the deal.

Felice, thank you, too, in particular - I had never thought of things from this angle.

Thank you again, everyone, for your thoughts.

Edited November 7, 2006 by paul o' vendange (log)

[menton1]

We find the French tolerate you and the Italians welcome you into their family.

←

I strongly (yet respectfully) disagree with this gross over-generalization and perpetuation of the stereotypes of these 2 great countries...

France has almost 60 million people, and they are all different. As frequent travelers through France, we have more often than not been overwhelmed with the kindness, graciousness, and friendliness of French people. We have been invited into their homes after a brief encounter on the street, at a market, or in a restaurant. We have made some lifelong trans-Atlantic friendships with "strangers" in France. We have had French people go out of their way to help us, give directions, and feed us.

Sure, there are some nasty folks in France. But most of the French we meet are great.

The key is showing a respect for their culture and their values, IMHO.

Please don't generalize about 60 million people...

[raisab]

I am also surprised at Paul's friends comments. I always advise my friends to stay away from touristy places. I am not saying that is where they went, but as Busboy stated above, it is amazing the price/quality ratio in France compared to a meal in the US. I will generalize here but in a good way. I believe the French have been brought up to appreciate food for its quality as opposed to it's quantity. I find that there is a national pride (for the most part) in the food and wine. It certainly shows. I am sure there are quite a few places that cater to the tourist that aren't loyal to this pride, but if you educate yourself before going you won't be disappointed.

[SWISS_CHEF]

We find the French tolerate you and the Italians welcome you into their family.

←

I strongly (yet respectfully) disagree with this gross over-generalization and perpetuation of the stereotypes of these 2 great countries...

France has almost 60 million people, and they are all different. As frequent travelers through France, we have more often than not been overwhelmed with the kindness, graciousness, and friendliness of French people. We have been invited into their homes after a brief encounter on the street, at a market, or in a restaurant. We have made some lifelong trans-Atlantic friendships with "strangers" in France. We have had French people go out of their way to help us, give directions, and feed us.

Sure, there are some nasty folks in France. But most of the French we meet are great.

The key is showing a respect for their culture and their values, IMHO.

Please don't generalize about 60 million people...

←

Hi Menton,

I don't think it is a generalization but rather our impression after a good deal of time in both places.

Clearly, you cannot generalize with great accuracy about 60 million people but I can guarantee that there are tendencies or characteristics that differ with every culture and even if you are an open-minded and non-judgmental person you tend to notice this.

Ed

[Ptipois]

Hi Menton,

I don't think it is a generalization but rather our impression after a good deal of time in both places.

Clearly, you cannot generalize with great accuracy about 60 million people but I can guarantee that there are tendencies or characteristics that differ with every culture and even if you are an open-minded and non-judgmental person you tend to notice this.

Ed

←

You can also spend a good deal of time in a place and still miss a few things. I think Menton is quite right. Saying that the French "tolerate" you is, honestly, a gross generalization.

Edited November 7, 2006 by Ptipois (log)

[SWISS_CHEF]

You can also spend a good deal of time in a place and still miss a few things. I think Menton is quite right. Saying that the French "tolerate" you is, honestly, a gross generalization.

←

Perhaps... but I don't think "welcome" is the right word either.

It is instinctive human nature to compare and analyze. We do it every time we walk into a room, meet a new person, start a new job, or visit a foreign land. Some things will appeal to us more than others. This is why we have favorite foods, restaurants etc. If we are objective, we can offer our experiences and listen to others without taking offense.

I am a big fan of many things in France and have had many good experiences there. If I disliked everything about France it would not have taken me 10 years to figure it out. But when I take a step back from the situation and ask myself "Where would I rather be?" the answer is clear to me. And when I go one step further and ask myself "Why?" I come up with "generalizations" like the one above.

What I offer is simply a personal opinion based on my travels and experiences...to be considered (and challenged) by the other people in this forum. It is not an attempt to persuade readers to dismiss an entire country and its people.

[John Talbott]

I'd like to remind everyone that eGullet concerns itself with food; let's leave the cross-cultural comparisons to other venues.

Thanks

[Dave Hatfield]

Going back to the original topic of this thread.

Yes, France has some bad restaurants. Yes, there is bad French wine.

Doesn't everywhere? My contention might be that the incidence of either in France is likely to be smaller than in most other countries. The French cultural heritage is such that the locals won't tolerate bad food & bad wine, places that serve either do not tend to stay in business very long. Unless, they happen to have a sure fire location with lots of traffic & lots of non-local patronage.

As with anywhere we've ever been you have to do your homework, ask the locals and be prepared for a learning curve as you enter new places.

Don't want to incur the ire of John so will simply end by saying that I've lived all over the world enjoyed all of my travels yet CHOSE to retire in France.

[SWISS_CHEF]

Hello all:

We have some very good friends recently returned from France, who spent time mainly in Paris, Burgundy, and Alsace. 

While they enjoyed Alsace, and found its food and wine up to expectations, they were horribly disappointed with the balance of their journey - in particular, they felt Atelier was a wash.....

Paul can you tell us at which restaurants they ate or where they bought their wines? In my experience you can't just go to the grocery store and get interesting wine, even if you pay good sums of money. It always seems to be mass produced stuff. I always try to buy my wines from the producer (true in Italy too) or if I am not in a wine region I try to buy it at a small négociant. I have even had very good luck in Nicolas.

The same is true for prepared food. Buy a quiche at an upscale traiteur like Fouchon and buy one from Carrefour and see which one you like better...

[paul o' vendange]

Swiss - I don't have specific places, outside of Atelier (where they left feeling very disappointed). If I got her right, my friend indicated that she and her husband were almost universally treated to a kind of Burgundian "nationalism":

Another point I had trouble with is that when we’d speak to people about the wine, especially in Burgundy, what we got more often than anything else was “ALL the wines here are good” like there was some magical element about Burgundy that made it so that any idiot could make a great wine. Our experience didn’t show that, and we spent time talking to the owner of the B&B we were staying in – an English man who was an importer/distributor of French wines for going on 20 years. He just rolled his eyes at the attitude, and confirmed what we’d found – a lot of French wine is crap, just like a lot of American (and Australian, etc) wine is crap.

My friend indicated they bought the (2 bottles) while on the road, so they couldn't easily take them back. She acknowledged that placing an overall assessment of French gastronomy based on experiences in Burgundy (or, as a consumer, on the zany overpricing on Bordeaux wines) isn't the best sampling. I do know they sought to avoid tourist traps, deliberately pursuing out-of-the-way places with good local report.

I'm in an odd place. I've cooked French food since I was a young teenager - as ridiculous as it was, I was dog-earing La Technique as a 12 year old, and never stopped. I spoke French rather fluently by the time I was 15. I was a young Francophile, in love with the language, history, and gastronomic culture of France. I have worked in the industry many years, and have regularly and preferentially consumed French wine, as I believe it tends to marry better with food than its more supercharged cousins of the New World.

But I have never been to France. As I mentioned in my opening post, part of this is all self-serving, as my wife and I intend on moving there next year. She was a winner of the WCR International Pinot Noir Festival fellowship, and I wish to fulfill a lifelong dream - though I've cooked these many years, and owned/operated the first French bistro our way, I have never formally studied and I intend on pursuing study at ESCF. My friends' report so flew in the face of everything I have known, I wanted to get the input of others.

Thank you very much, by the way, for the link to Nicolas.

Edited November 8, 2006 by paul o' vendange (log)

[wkl]

i have travelled in france three times recently. you really have nothing to worry about. your friends experience is uncommon and rather startling to read.

my only explanation is that burgundy is a minefield (for wine), especially for those not used to drinking it. maybe your friends are, but then they would have known what producers and vineyards to look for.

i have been consistently floored by the food and wine that can be had in france for very reasonable prices.

[paul o' vendange]

i have travelled in france three times recently. you really have nothing to worry about. your friends experience is uncommon and rather startling to read.

my only explanation is that burgundy is a minefield (for wine), especially for those not used to drinking it. maybe your friends are, but then they would have known what producers and vineyards to look for.

i have been consistently floored by the food and wine that can be had in france for very reasonable prices.

←

Thanks, WKL. I think a good many appellations are potential minefields, but this is part of the joy. This is the other thing I was surprised by - they indicated the price of wine was through the roof, much to their surprise and dismay. I would not think this is a general phenomenon.

Edited November 8, 2006 by paul o' vendange (log)

[markemorse]

I will add this to the general fray, for what it's worth: the quality of French wines that I've researched and purchased myself does not remotely approach the quality of French wines that French dinner guests have brought to home-cooked meals that I've been part of.

Whether that says more about my own proficiency in research or about the difficulty in researching this minefield of a subject due to its sheer size/complexity, I'll just say that I never really "got" French wines (with exceptions) until I started sharing meals with real French people...who just brought wines from "their neck of the woods". I've changed my tune.

mem

Edited November 8, 2006 by markemorse (log)

[algy]

my only explanation is that burgundy is a minefield (for wine), especially for those not used to drinking it. maybe your friends are, but then they would have known what producers and vineyards to look for.

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I agree. The assertion that all wine in Burgundy is of a similar high standard is ridiculous. Even worse some very poor wines from distinguished appellations are both very expensive and absolutely appalling.

We stopped in Beaune recently and it was interesting to see the range of outlets offering wine - some excellent in range and price, others truly awful. It's a pity that your friends had such a disappointing experience but, for me, enjoying burgundy is a matter of a lot of research, a lot of money and a lot of luck.

[paul o' vendange]

my only explanation is that burgundy is a minefield (for wine), especially for those not used to drinking it. maybe your friends are, but then they would have known what producers and vineyards to look for.

←

I agree. The assertion that all wine in Burgundy is of a similar high standard is ridiculous. Even worse some very poor wines from distinguished appellations are both very expensive and absolutely appalling.

We stopped in Beaune recently and it was interesting to see the range of outlets offering wine - some excellent in range and price, others truly awful. It's a pity that your friends had such a disappointing experience but, for me, enjoying burgundy is a matter of a lot of research, a lot of money and a lot of luck.

←

Beaune was one place they stayed. I do know they paid for a professional guide in Alsace, and, based on this guide's connections, they had some wonderful stops - including an impromptu stop at a winery that had just completed a tasting, and a noted wine reviewer the guide knew invited them back to the winery for a tasting of among 20+ wines.

They were on their own in Burgundy, they may have just been overload, and they simply got some misses.

Edited November 8, 2006 by paul o' vendange (log)

[JohnL]

Going back to the original topic of this thread.

Yes, France has some bad restaurants. Yes, there is bad French wine.

Doesn't everywhere? My contention might be that the incidence of either in France is likely to be smaller than in most other countries. The French cultural heritage is such that the locals won't tolerate bad food & bad wine, places that serve either do not tend to stay in business very long. Unless, they happen to have a sure fire location with lots of traffic & lots of non-local patronage.

As with anywhere we've ever been you have to do your homework, ask the locals and be prepared for a learning curve as you enter new places.

Don't want to incur the ire of John  so will simply end by saying that I've lived all over the world enjoyed all of my travels yet CHOSE to retire in France.

←

Me? Ire?

I agree that there is no place on earth where all the wine produced (at any price point) is good or bad.

I also believe that france has set some very high standards for all types of wine.

However, you are IMOP falling into the trap when you say that French cultural heritage won't tolerate bad food or wine. I prefer to believe that all people's are capable of good and bad.

There is plenty of bad food and bad wine to be found in France. Also lot's of terrific food and wine. (I do agree that there may be a higher incidence of good food in some places--I just can't get into quibbling about it).

That's part of the problem. For too long, the French have been overselling their wines at inflated prices. It's French it must be good.

Too many people spent a lot of money wading through mediocre (and worse) French wines--Burgundy is notable--to get to the real gems (and what gems they can be). Notions of terroir have been used to excuse bad wine and inflate prices.

We have relied on importers who convinced the wine makers to adapt better techniques and make better wine as a good indication of quality.

I also believe that in today's growing market for wine the French have had a difficult time competing. Thus the EU is mandating vines be ripped up and thousands of litres of wine be turned into industrial alcohol.

I doubt that in local wine shops throughout France one could find many labels form other European countries let alone the US and Australia etc. no competition leads to mediocrity.

This is all changing.

In the end I believe the French (and Europe) will emerge and we will see many more good examples of wines at all price levels and many styles of wine making.

By the way, there are problems facing the rest of the wine world just different.

My cellar is full of French wine (and wine from all over the world) I prefer to enjoy wines because I like them not because they conform to some vaguely defined concepts of terroir or Frenchness (or Italianness or whateverness) or because they are deemed "grand cru" or some other classification.

I wish we could stop broad generalizations and stereotypes and enjoy the best everyone has to offer.Food wine etc.

There is an amazing amount of really good wine from all over the world reaching shelves--this is a great time to be a wine lover!

By the way--you are living a dream--retired in France!!!

You could do a lot worse!!!

[wkl]

i think dave h was referring to john talbot, and his request to stay on topic.

[pierre45]

my only explanation is that burgundy is a minefield (for wine), especially for those not used to drinking it. maybe your friends are, but then they would have known what producers and vineyards to look for.

←

I agree. The assertion that all wine in Burgundy is of a similar high standard is ridiculous. Even worse some very poor wines from distinguished appellations are both very expensive and absolutely appalling.

for me, enjoying burgundy is a matter of a lot of research, a lot of money and a lot of luck.

←

The above 2 statements sum up burgundy wines.ONe needs a lot of experience and knowledge to ferret decent burgundy.Cost has no relevance.The key is the producer. The best way is to rely on knowledgable sources.I,e restaurants ,wine bars or local wine producers , or local consumers