Are there more men (pastry) chefs...

[jbk34]

I'd like to hear who are the biggest influences on female chefs, as it seems the original poster maggie, was starting to have some leanings toward FA.

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I'm influenced by what I see/read. Unless I work with a pastry chef or their work gets published how else could I be influenced by them?

So the same names you read about are who I read about.

I might identify with or emulate a different chef then you but that's still based on exposure to them. If more female PC's were published writing professional level books, I'd be equally drawn to them as I am the ones written by males. What professional level books have women written that are distributed by accessable sources?

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[nicolekaplan]

if you want people to know who you are you need to make it happen. that means at every single event going up to all those people that are your heros and introducing yourself. you may not always get a warm reception but eventually people will know who you are. after that it's up to you to prove yourself. when the call comes for an article on some random thing that you would never even consider doing, create something that will fit in. never say no. it's up to you. don't believe that anyone else will look after your best interest better than yourself.

so for example if you want to be in p.a.d. send them a portfolio with all your stuff including pictures of your work. they are always on the look out for someone new. there are thousands of p.c.'s out there, it's not possible for them to know about everyone.

make it happen for yourself

i am my own best publicist

Honestly, from where I sit it looks like some magic thing that happens when P, A & D 'discovers' you and lists you in the top 10. It was only a couple years ago that I learned chefs hired their own publicity specialists.......... It's not exactly a topic discussed anywhere.......... I have no idea how chefs get featured in the recipe section blurp of P, A & D either. Is it all done by having your publistist contact them?

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Edited June 19, 2006 by nicolekaplan (log)

[nicolekaplan]

not see, i've gone and screwed up the quote thing again, that's why i stick to pastry

[K8memphis]

Go back to your edit button located in the blue line under your post. See if you add a [ bracket to the beginning of your quote if that might not fix it.

[quote=Wendy DeBord,Jun 19 2006, 07:00 AM]

^

Edited June 19, 2006 by K8memphis (log)

[Wendy DeBord]

Nicole, I couldn't care less if you don't get the qoute buttons figured out, we all know what your good at. I'm thrilled that your cool enough to share/open up/help others, thank-you!!!!

[jbk34]

Ok I'm going to try this again since I didn't do it right the first time. This is the first time I have posted so here goes: I am a pastry chef at a hotel. I too never really knew pastry chefs hired pr people and did it themselves until a few months ago. I think its all about what you want. Some people want to get in magazines and tv and some do not. I would say that the vast majority of pastry chefs will never be known by the public. But I do know of someone that really wanted to be in magazine, etc and they simply called any magazine and asked to be in them. I was in the P A & Design magazine but it just happened that someone from the magazine called me because an extern there heard that I had recently gotten a job at a hotel.

[chiantiglace]

I think Nicole is most right about this topic right now. You don't need a publicist, just throw your name out there. Introduce yourself to all your heroes, hell I have, and a couple of them are on here. If they don't like you they don't like you, your not going to make it with everyone. And I also agree, under a lot of argument, to never say no; which I never say no.

For some reason I wanted to say I saw an add for a magazine, I would like to say it was a pastry magazine like PA&D but I am pretty sure it wasn't. The add was for the magazine that asked professionals to send portfolios of there work infor review if they thought they were talented enough to be highlighted in the magazine.

There really isn't any reason why you shouldn't send your work off as far as I am concerned. The editor isn't going to look at some incredible work and say "this person is way too arrogant by sending in their own work for me to put them in my magazine". If it's that good, they will probably contact you I would suspect.

[JeanneCake]

Many years ago, one of my instructors was featured in PA&D, and I asked her how that happened. She told me she had a PR person who specialized in the food business and their "plan" was to send out press releases, announcements, etc. to appropriate media outlets (TV, newspapers, magazines, etc). And now, six years later, she's still in the local bridal magazines that come out twice a year, quoted on new trends in cake design and how to put together a dessert station.

Very similar to what Confetti Cakes did with PR and communications. Another cake stylist sent a portfolio "book" to PA&D after attending the World Pastry Forum and one of her photos was used there and also in Chocolatier.

So I agree that the point is if you want people to know about what you're doing, you have to tell them. Over and over. Wasn't there a quote about the music business ... you're only as good as your last 3 mins and 21 seconds?!! If what you want is the recognition from the media or your peers, you have to give them a path to find you.

[Desiderio]

To be perfectly honest, I really do think a lot of men consider anything regarding "decorating" to be either women's work or the domain of the homosexual. I really do. Takes a big man to call himself a decorator in society. If we generally referred to  it as cake sculpture instead of decorating I bet you'd find more men comfortable saying they're really into it.

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ummm, don't give them (the men) any ideas!

the only really big name in "cake sculpture" is ron ben-israel...possibly some hotel pastry chefs as well, since they have the time/budget/staffing to focus on that type of stuff. but i think it might be correct to say that gender-wise most independent cake decorating businesses are run by women.

i'm sure i'll step on someone's toes when i say this, but i think it is an area dominated by women because often, they can be independent with their schedule and frequently are raising a family at the same time. the only example i can find here on eGullet is Trishiad who does her chocolate business at home (and soon maybe Vanessa "Desiderio") both of whom are raising young boys while simultaneously running a business from their homes.

they wouldn't be able to have the privilege (no sarcasm intended as i believe this is the best thing you can be doing for yourselves and your bambini) of staying at home with their children if they had to work "competitively" in a restaurant kitchen, or for somebody else.

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This is most interesting,I have been wondering this for years.

When I was in Italy, and decided I wanted to be in the bakery world, I was probably already too old for an apprenticeship ( I was in my early 20 , more 19 I would say ).In Italy many places offers jobs of that kind ,to teenagers ( we dont really have a law for juvenile work ).I did try several bakeries ,whenver I found an add on the paper etc.Well I still remeber this like if it was yesterday , I call this one and asked about the position ,and the guy asked me "are you a woman?"well last time I checked yes , I should have said .Anyway while in Italy I had a good chance to get into the field after I got hooked up with the bakers association, and I did courses with them , wich I still tresure,but I guess it was partially my fault the reason why I didnt succed, why I didnt get the job I wanted ,and instead I had to get whatever job just to pay my bills.I always felt in Italy and in general the food business is dominated by men, I mean everytime you see a famous chef /pastry chef/chocolatier its always a man.I have been asking my self many time what is the difference , what makes men been more succesfull at this than women , even women are originally the ones that always deal with food.I dont know if it makes sense but I cant explain better than this.

Anyway one day I was talking with my dad ( he owned a restaurant and he is the chef in my house),about my chocolates and how finally ,after long time ,I am doing what I always desired ,and talking about my son he said something about him growing up with me making chocolates and eventually become a chocolatier himself, at wich I said that I wouldnt be surprise if he also become famous and I will still remain and anonimous one.He told me that he thinks that usually men are more selfish ( please dont get upset I know alots of women that are selfish more than men)and just go for what they want without worries, and usually have a family ( woman ) that care for them and they are free to achieve what they are dreaming for ,while women often time are kinda of stuck into doing everything else ( talking about multitasking , wow ),I do still feel that when we are at home and my husband has something to do , I am the one that have to take care of our son and give my husband the time he needs , but I am sorry to say I never get that kinda of luxure ( my fault ).I also think that men may have , in general and not always true,a better sense of the business, I mean in the techincal way, and are not afraid to go out in the world to marketing themself.Women may still have inheritated fears and tabu about their limits and whats is possible and whats not.I have to say I come from a family that ,thankgod , think out of the box, but I do have my own self limit and they are hard to fight.I think here in the USA things may not be esier but , there is room for everybody if you are willing to work for it and if you shows what are you made of.Yes go out there and just market yourself , no matter what sex you are, if we let that stop us then we didnt change anything.It is little bit more intimidating in a country were usually sex ,age and phisical aspect count very much.

Edited June 20, 2006 by Desiderio (log)

[maggie]

Ted, I am so glad you started this thread, though I was a bit concerned when Michael got so angry, because I enjoy his threads. It has been really interesting for me to read what everyone thinks, and the helpful hints from you and others on how to get noticed are great.

I do tend to sit back and wait for someone to notice what I do. I work in an incredible hotel, where the Chef has food writers clamoring for his attention. Sometimes they meet me, sometimes they write a sentence or two about me, most times they don't. Just last week, the Chef brought a writer from the James Beard Foundation into the bake shop to meet me, but I was in the middle of something and hardly turned around. Stupid! That was an opportunity I let run right by! Is it nature or nurture that created my ineptitude at self promotion? If I'm serious about this, I know I'd better treat it as much a part of my job as the daily production lists and managing my staff.

What Chiantiglace asked about cake decorating reminded me of what happened in pastry class one day. A guy who always copied off my notes because he couldn't speak French (Le Cordon Bleu in Paris) leaned over and said, "This s**t's for girls." I got up and moved four chairs away so he couldn't copy anymore. He was going for a Grand Diplome, so he was probably never going to use pastry skills, but he pissed me off, and made me wonder then how gender was going to affect my career.

You all have me fired up! I'm going to work!

Edited June 20, 2006 by maggie (log)

[joiei]

Ok I'm going to try this again since I didn't do it right the first time.  This is the first time I have posted so here goes:  I am a pastry chef at a hotel.  I too never really knew pastry chefs hired pr people and did it themselves until a few months ago.  I think its all about what you want.  Some people want to get in magazines and tv and some do not.  I would say that the vast majority of pastry chefs will never be known by the public.  But I do know of someone that really wanted to be in magazine, etc and they simply called any magazine and asked to be in them.  I was in the P A & Design magazine but it just happened that someone from the magazine called me because an extern there heard that I had recently gotten a job at a hotel.

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jbk34, welcome to the boards. Through your posting here, you can develope a fan club of we eGer's. We do like to support our own.

[tan319]

Some great comments, posts.

I think my comment about publicists was probably written & taken slightly the wrong way.

While I know people who DO use them I would suppose the majority don't.

Nicole (Kaplan) hit it on the head.

She's her best promoter.

The restaurant she's in ( 11 Madison, NYC )

and her get constant kudos for their food and work.

Sending your portfolio to PA& D certainly couldn't hurt although, personally, I think a "referal" of sorts, whether it's by a fellow chef, your Valrhona or Uster salesperson, is going to help it along.

RE: Exec chefs, etc.

It sure was nice of the exec to bring the JBF person in to meet you.

Many I know wouldn't dream of it, too scared, too much ego.

Shouldnt blow it like that agin.

Get ahold of these food writers and position your self!

[tan319]

Forgot to mention one thing.

In the new issue of Food & Wine (10 best chefs issue) there's an article about new technology, ingredients and so on, and somebody basically says that the ""pushing the envelope thing is a guy thing.

If they were car mechanics they would be hotrodding their engines"" kinda sorta paraphrased.

[Wendy DeBord]

Wanting to stir the pot........

First, we all agree there aren't more male pc's in actual numbers, correct? They are getting more press, that's why it seems there's more of them.

Lets go back in time. Before there was cutting edge science involved in pastry men were still the ones getting the attention in the field.

I do think there's a biase for men against women in general in the business world. Just as there's an equal baise for women in family matters over men. We used to have very clearly defined roles not that damn long ago. It's only been a blink in time that things have changed. We're all on the younger side posting here and we forget what our mom's or grandmothers roles/non-paying jobs in society were. In the 60's (when I was growing up) no ones mother worked outside of he home and if they did, it was strictly part-time, they were housewifes as their main career.

I think females are just starting to compete (looking at this as a movement in history), to learn the ropes and pass that info. on to other females.

Sure theres always been women or people ahead of their time...........but I'm talking about the masses. It's not a movement or a change in culture until the majority is on board. We still look at men weirdly if they're househusbands raising the kids. It takes time for minds to change and people to accept the changing worker/enviroment. We all have steriotypes in our own minds. Hense the salesmen dirrecting his comments to the male as the decision maker.

Men still make more then women for the same job, no? I do think things are changing it just takes time and more women in power to effect the changes.

[Lindacakes]

This has been very interesting to read.

Sexism is a fact of human life, like ageism and racism. I agree with those who have said that we do our best to ignore it and move forward.

I had my aptitudes tested at the Johnson O'Connor Research Foundation in an effort to make a career change. The tester there told me something interesting. Once in a while they call in a group of people with the same profession and test them, and plot which aptitudes together signal a certain career.

Those in the culinary professions have absolutely nothing in common except finger dexterity.

That's it.

The rest is in our attitudes. Both individual attitude and collective attitude.

That being said, any individual can be smothered by a collective attitude. I'm thinking racism here. Bring to mind any example of racism, and then tell yourself the victim just didn't promote himself hard enough.

If you're going to throw pies, make mine key lime.

[Teri Everitt]

This has been a really interesting topic. When I worked as a line cook I worked with more men than women, since switching to pastry its been mostly female coworkers.

I think the barrier women face with self promotion is the fact that we aren't really socialized to brag, and some of the things involved in self promotion might be perceived by women as "showing off".

Here's a little Ottawa insider story for you. There's a very well known pastry chef in Ottawa who runs her own shop (sorry, no names....if you're from Ottawa you probably know who she is). She considers her shop the best in town, possibly it is.

Anyway, one of the other pastry chefs at my current job used to work at the NAC and assisted the NAC's chef, Kurt Wadele at a competition in Toronto.

The pastry chef mentioned above (the one with the healthy ego) had won this competition before and was not eligible to compete that year. So she went to the competion anyway, complete with a prepared cake and desserts, dressed in her whites and wearing her medal she'd won in the previous competition.

QUESTION............was this self promotion, or showboating?

If it was you, would you

A) Do the exact same thing?

B) Show up at the competition, just to check out what others are doing, but in your street clothes.

C)Show up at the competion, in your whites, and network.

Just curious. I think I would have done option C, because to me showing up with a cake is kind of like wearing a wedding gown to someone elses wedding. Just seemed kind of tacky to try and tug the spotlight away from that year's winner.

[chiantiglace]

sounds like showboating to me. I would show up in business casual and network. People are already going to know who you are if you won the previous competition and you will probably get recognized quite a bit as it is without showing off.

I wonder what the angle was behind her bringing stuff to the competition even though she was crossed off from it in the first place. Maybe it was to show people she could win again if she was aloud?

[Tweety69bird]

QUESTION............was this self promotion, or showboating?

If it was you, would you

            A) Do the exact same thing?

            B) Show up at the competition, just to check out what others are doing,  but in your street clothes.

            C)Show up at the competion, in your whites, and network.

Just curious.  I think I would have done option C, because to me showing up with a cake is kind of like wearing a wedding gown to someone elses wedding.  Just seemed kind of tacky to try and tug the spotlight away from that year's winner.

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I don't know that I would have put on my whites. What's the point if she's not going to be involved in making anything at the competiton. I think she would look kind of silly and out of place. As Chantiglace says, the people would know who last years winner is, and she could discretely tell people in conversation. No one likes a showboat. And she should have left her cakes at home. This wasn't her time to shine and she should respect her collegues' time in the spotlight and show that she has class. I choose B.

[Wendy DeBord]

Although it's an interesting/funny story, I don't what it has to do with the topic? Goofs happen in both sexes.

I thought Lindacakes made a really good point, one that I didn't see until she wrote it...I think it deserves more input, don't you all? If the word was 'racism' instead of 'sexism', self-promotion wouldn't have any place in the conversation.

So is there sexism in our industry?

I think yes, in a huge way. As a female working in mostly all male kitchens I've seen it many times at work. The real thing, is subtle. It's in how my bosses or co-workers think about women period, at work or not at work.

Some males have great respect for women and I think it's growing and perhaps part of maturity (ie, the older wiser male starts to recognize the strengths of females where as the younger cockier male is blind to subtle strengths.)

I guess when I think about it.....maybe it's not as much of a sexism issue I think of.........I see more of a glass ceiling. Men in charge promote males they like (that aren't threateningly good). So the cream of the crop doesn't rise.

[chiantiglace]

I know I am going to get a lot of grief from this if I say it but I think it is extremely relevant to the issue.

Of course if it was a racism factor self-promotion wouldn't even come up because even though with stereotypes we all agree all men are created equal, hence the term men not men and women.

Men and women are not created the same, or equal. We both possess different traits, some better and worse on both sides. It's in our genetics to think and act differently, I don't know who could deny that but someone will. It really isn't a sore subject but people like to make it one. Men are known to crave more meat while women more chocolate, it is a fact that it is in our genes. Different parts of our traits trigger different things. Premenstral syndrome boosts a crave for endorphins hence the urge for chocolate. The more sugar that enters the blood, the more insulin released to and therefore a continuous craving for sweets/carbodyhdrates. Men's urge for protein is activated by our testosterone. We crave protein when supplies are low to keep energy and muscle levels up, its natural. All of this has an affect on our mood, what we eat before and after what we crave and how much of it. With all of this affecting our pyschologic differences you cannot say we are the same, so inevitably we will make different decisions in life plus how we were brought up has a big affect too. How we were raised has been discussed already a considerable amount, and we should always remember that.

Everyone is going to agree between the difference between the hunter and the nurturer, but only a few stop to think about how much it actually affects our personality and how it plays out in our everyday life. I can try all day long to feel the same feelings as a woman, or try to be as compassionate as some, but in the end my mind just doesn't support it to that magnitude. Yes it has a lot to do with how I was raised, but I also don't have the same chemical releases (amount) as a female.

This is just a brief set of examples just to make a point, we can go on all day about the biological and anatomical differences between male and female. The point is racism is a facotr only with man to man, and woman to woman when contributing sexual issues. You can only measure the difference between a red and blue cube and seperately a red and blue sphere. The weight of the cube and sphere may be the same, as the value, but the functions and anticipated actions of both the sphere and cube are different and should be treated as such. Racism problems should not be confused with sexism issues, they will never be the same, though similar. The similarity is that they are a problem that needs to be solved, just like a disease needs to be cured. Who knows if it ever will, but we can all make an effort in the right direction.

That said, all of the above has no relevancy to the perferomance capabilities of men and women. So all of you with a bent eyebrow and an urge to strike back, think about what I wrote a little bit, I don't know how to clarify, sometimes I lack articulation and am vague or confusing. I am sorry, my mind races a mile a minute and I am not very good at getting the point out without assistance.

~Anthony.

Edited June 22, 2006 by chiantiglace (log)

[K8memphis]

Although it's an interesting/funny story, I don't what it has to do with the topic? Goofs happen in both sexes.

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Men and women are not created the same, or equal.  We both possess different traits, some better and worse on both sides.  It's in our genetics to think and act differently, I don't know who could deny that but someone will.  It really isn't a sore subject but people like to make it one.  Men are known to crave more meat while women more chocolate, it is a fact that it is in our genes.  Different parts of our traits trigger different things. 

I don't know how to clarify, sometimes I lack articulation and am vague or confusing.  I am sorry, my mind races a mile a minute and I am not very good at getting the point out without assistance.

~Anthony.

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Wendy, Teri's point, if I may, is that this gal is ballsy enough to attend an event as a competitor even though she is not and can not be a competitor. Even bringing 'results' with her. She has the 'gift' of self promotion down to a science albeit a bit warped.

Chianti dude-buddy, you said it very very well. Consider different Olympic fields of endeavor, same thing.

(And not being able to say it can also be a male dominated trait-- )

I'm surprised that this male/female topic is of this much interest.

If there's a glass ceiling, break it. If there's a bias, defy it. If there's a path you want to follow or a trail you want to blaze, let nothing stand in your way. We all have what we want, or we're making strides to get what we want or we're not trying.

I taught my kids that they can do anything they want. And they are.

[Sugarella]

.... that this gal is ballsy enough

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Interesting choice of words......

Actually, I wouldn't necessarily look at what that pastry chef did as showboating because I don't have enough infomation as to her motivation. It's not like she tried to sneak her pastries into the competition without anyone noticing. Perhaps she just brought some new items she'd been working on in hopes of garnering some additional publicity outside of the actual competition part, and being the previous year's winner this doesn't seem at all inappropriate to me. If there was the off chance she'd be interviewed because she was the former winner, then why not have something new to say about yourself?

And if that's the case, wearing the chef's whites would also be appropriate, to ensure she was perceived as the creator of the pastries, instead of being mistaken for a waitress carrying a tray.

Racism problems should not be confused with sexism issues, they will never be the same, though similar.  The similarity is that they are a problem that needs to be solved, just like a disease needs to be cured.  Who knows if it ever will, but we can all make an effort in the right direction.

~Anthony.

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First of all, Anthony, don't sweat it. You did fine.

But I think I've experienced enough life to understand these are not curable diseases in our lifetimes. Sexism I'm especially sure of. As a species, we really haven't evolved that much in the last 50 years, and blatant prejudices have just given way to disguised intolerances that are harder to prove. The difference however, is that those of us who feel we are the recipient always have the option to go over someone's head or to go elsewhere to get what we want, and we of course now have the right to tell a perpetrator to F-off, too. The "effort in the right direction," as you put it, starts and continues by having dialogue like this.

[Desiderio]

I wanted to add from my point of view thatI have noticed here in the USA, there are good number of women professional that own their own business and alots of them that teach in schools , I mean some schools are mostrly women , and lots of business are molsty women owned.This is inspiring for me , in Italy all the schools and classes are teached by men and only men, the big business and small for what it matter are men owned .I am sorry I do have the same problem Anthony thinks he have ( but he did great ) I cant explain myself sometimes ( and spelling hehe ), I just meant to say that here in the USA women professionals are stronger and more determinated than elsewhere I have seen ,they get their own place and they do an awesom job at it.ANother thing I think ( and thats me ) many women are not to supporting with each other and I always find that a big down side for us , I usually try to be as suppostive as I can with the same sex and it just come naturally , and I think it makes a big difference in other people life ( women ).

What I wanted to say is that women here do make the difference you can see them they do not stay in the shadow , maybe isnt 50%50% yet but I can see the difference coming from another world, and I ammire you gals and thank you for the inspiration you gave to other women that are thinking of making their profession in a field that is always been a men world .

Edited June 22, 2006 by Desiderio (log)

[alanamoana]

check this out:

Women Chefs and Restaurateurs

The United States is probably the only country that has resources like this one for women. If other countries have them, they are probably not as big or influential. More of us should join (and I include myself in this, as I'm not a member) to make ourselves heard. Can't hurt, right?

[Teri Everitt]

Although it's an interesting/funny story, I don't what it has to do with the topic? Goofs happen in both sexes.

My point was about male vs. female attitudes toward self-promotion. I guess I just believe most women would consider that kind of a stunt as going a little too far rather than seeing it as just latching on to an opportunity to promote one's business. I was relieved to see that Anthony thought of it as showboating also. I wasn't sure how opinion might be split along gender lines.

It was just an example that popped to mind while reading the topic so I threw it out there as a hypothetical out of curiousity.