Food and Wine Pairings

[laurenkusa]

First,

let me thank everyone for their advice. I have recently gone on a holiday and tried to find wines to match the food, but found some difficulty with the limited selection of wines available.

What I like (You asked):

I like most french and italian whites especially alsatian whites, vouvray from the loire (I think), viogner, etc. I belong to the anything but chardonney club for sure. I have had some good white wine blends, including one from Venge this summer that I truly enjoyed. Also I love hard to pronounce and spell german wines, not just reislings, but also Gewurtztraminer and so on. One person mentioned Gruner Veltliner and I like that too.

I like Rose, not white zin, but the french dry style Rose, not too sweet. I also like dry french ciders. an example of rose that I like is from Bonny Doon - Vin Gris de Cigare if I recall correctly. Also Gundluch -Bunschau Tempanillo Rose is good

In reds I like pinot Noir ok, tempranillo, carignane, mouvedre, etc. Not a big Cab or Merlot fan I seem to respond unfavorably to a wine that is heavily tannic.

And Yes I like champagne/sparkling wines - prosecco, Roederer estate from CA is good and once I had a very good red wine champagne from Schug - Wow! that was back in 02 and I still remember it.

I also enjoy port.

So recently, I went on a holiday and had a pork dish, so I ordered a glass of Gewurtztraminer, it was okay, but maybe I could have picked something better. I would have gone for a rose, but none was available.

The next night I had venison and my husband had duck. I ordered a Pinot noir since it was on the list. The venison was served with kalamata olives and some sort of sauce. It went better with teh duck than the venison, I think due to the olives.

Anyways, I look forward to learning more I thank everyone for taking the time to help.

Lauren

[Brad Ballinger]

First,

let me thank everyone for their advice.  I have recently gone on a holiday and tried to find wines to match the food, but found some difficulty with the limited selection of wines available.

What I like (You asked):

I like most french and italian whites especially alsatian whites, vouvray from the loire (I think), viogner, etc. I belong to the anything but chardonney club for sure.  I have had some good white wine blends, including one from Venge this summer that I truly enjoyed.  Also I love hard to pronounce and spell german wines, not just reislings, but also Gewurtztraminer and so on.  One person mentioned Gruner Veltliner and I like that too.

I like Rose, not white zin, but the french dry style Rose, not too sweet.  I also like dry french ciders. an example of rose that I like is from Bonny Doon - Vin Gris de Cigare if I recall correctly.  Also Gundluch -Bunschau Tempanillo Rose is good

In reds I like pinot Noir ok, tempranillo, carignane, mouvedre, etc.  Not a big Cab or Merlot fan  I seem to respond unfavorably to a wine that is heavily tannic.

And Yes I like champagne/sparkling wines - prosecco, Roederer estate from CA is good and once I had a very good red wine champagne from Schug - Wow!  that was back in 02 and I still remember it.

I also enjoy port.

So recently, I went on a holiday and had a pork dish, so I ordered a glass of Gewurtztraminer, it was okay, but maybe I could have picked something better.  I would have gone for a rose, but none was available.

The next night I had venison and my husband had duck.  I ordered a Pinot noir since it was on the list. The venison was served with kalamata olives and some sort of sauce.  It went better with teh duck than the venison, I think due to the olives.

Anyways, I look forward to learning more I thank everyone for taking the time to help.

Lauren

←

Well, it appears as if you are well on your way to learning through experimentation. Depending on how the pork was prepared, and sauced (if at all), one of those hard to pronounce German riesling wines could make a decent match. Pinot Noir, overall, tends to pair well with duck. Venison is such a lean meat that many opt for something lower in acid than Pinot Noir and packed with fruit, such as a shiraz or zinfandel.

[Bubbalicious]

I love the fact that you ordered a Gew with pork.

Too many people would want a red with a 'heavy' meat like pork.

What you ought to try when you're dining out is asking for

a tasting portion of a few glasses of wine so that you can evaluate

which works and which doesn't. Sometimes you can get some

fun and interesting results this way. In Vancouver we have a few

restaurants that offer 2 oz. pours of the wines offered by the glass.

If you can't do that then split a couple of wines with someone.

Ask the server to pour each glass into two separate glasses.

I also think that it's important to develop a relationship with a wine retailer.

Poke around in a few stores and find a clerk that you get along with.

Get to know their weekly schedule and go in during off-hours when it's not busy.

If the store is full of customers then the advice you're given is not going

to be as in-depth and well-thought-out if there are others that the clerk

needs to help as well. Weekday afternoons are usually good and Sunday days.

There is nothing more that a wine geek loves than to talk about food and

wine pairing and getting a client to try new things. I used to work in a

wine shop myself so I speak from experience.

If you would like to read about W&F pairing there are two books that I would

recommend. One is Wine with Food by Joanna Simon. A lovely book that

breaks down the science of W&F pairing. She tends to ramble on a bit,

but it's good bedside reading.

Another is A Matter of Tast by Waverman and Chatto. It was nominated for a

James Beard the year it came out. It is a cookbook that gives you wonderful

seasonal menus with recipes by Lucy Waverman and then wine pairings with

short essays by James Chatto. Both recipes and essays are fantastic.

Enjoyed reading your last post. Hope you will write more and let us know what you've discovered.

[thomasein]

hello,

having been able to procure some truffles i am intending to prepare some fairly simple dishes to fully experience the flavour. it was an epiphany for me when I was first served a simple dish of fresh tagliatelle with white truffles.

Anyways, can anyone recommend wines to pair with truffles?

Any recommendation or direction would be useful.

Thanks.

Edited November 2, 2005 by thomasein (log)

[I_call_the_duck]

Lucky you!

My own epiphany with pairing wine with food came with truffles, albeit black ones. One night we paired this French cheese with truffles with a Gigondas, which is a red wine from the Rhone Valley. It was an amazing experience. The wine took on a whole new dimension. Sigh. I still have fond memories of that night.

I read somewhere that a Gigondas is compared to a Châteauneuf du Pape (also of the Rhone Valley), so that may be another alternative.

[Rebel Rose]

Florence Fabricant mentioned truffles and Rhones in today's NYT Online. * She has posted a recipe for Five Spice Chicken Livers.

When winter comes and black truffles do arrive, I'll prepare these chicken livers again, but I will substitute sliced cremini mushrooms for the tomatoes and shower the livers with shaved black truffles as I return them to the pan to complete the cooking.

Where the Rhone Bends to the West lists some California Rhone-esque wines that inspired her recipe.

* Requires free registration

[carswell]

Hey, t.,

Had an exchange with our compatriot ademello about this on the weekend. Here's what I wrote:

Nebbiolo, especially mature Barolo and Barbaresco, is the standard reply, and not without reason.

According to saq.com, there are five bottles of Renato Ratti's 1998 Rocche Marcenasco Barolo at the Signature (C$80). I have a couple in my cellar but haven't tasted it; it's supposed to be approachable at an age younger than many traditional Barolos. There remain a few bottles of Marchese di Barolo's 1999 Cannubi Barolo (C$71), a fine, classic wine. Ditto Abbona's 1998 Vigna Faset Barbaresco (C$47.50). Ditto Travaglini's 1998 Gattinara (C$34; there's also a more expensive reserve bottling that's not necessarily better). And the other day, a friend mentioned that the current bottling of Fontanafredda's generic Barolo (c. C$30) is a pretty good Nebbiolo (the C$71 1998 La Rosa bottling is said to be much improved over earlier vintages, too). If you go with any of these, make sure you decant a couple of hours beforehand and be aware that you'll be guilty of commiting infanticide.

The Signature probably has some older Barolos at astronomical prices. In any case, they'd be best positioned to tell you which are drinking best now.

I can also see some mature southern French wines working: a Côte-Rôtie from the 1980s, say, or a Domaine Tempier or Château Simone. Depending on the dish, a rich white wouldn't be out of place either (Vieux-Télégraphe, big Burgundy, Gaja's chard).

Edited November 2, 2005 by carswell (log)

[Florida Jim]

Mature nebbiolo would be my choice.

If you have none try Bruno Giacosa's Nebbiolo d'Alba, which is a lighter version of the variety with many of the attributes of a mature Barbaresco or Barolo and at a fraction of the price.

Mature Burgundy would be my second choice, especially those which show a bit of that mushroom/truffle note.

Best, Jim

[I_call_the_duck]

Where the Rhone Bends to the West lists some California Rhone-esque wines that inspired her recipe. 

←

The wine listed here: Fess Parker Frontier Red Lot No. 51 California 2004

I take it that's Fess Parker as in "Davy, Davy Crockett...King of the Wild Frontier"?

[carswell]

If you have none try Bruno Giacosa's Nebbiolo d'Alba, which is a lighter version of the variety with many of the attributes of a mature Barbaresco or Barolo and at a fraction of the price.

←

Good suggestion but not for Quebec. The SAQ currently carries only two Nebbiolos, both from 2001, Prunotto's Ochetti and Pio Cesare's generic. Of the two, I far prefer the latter, which is also slightly less expensive (C$30.50 vs. C$35). If thomasein finds himself in Ontario in the next few days, he should check out the LCBO, which usually has a better selection of nebbs (but still no Giacosa).

[Daniel Rogov]

A few suggestions:

Scrambled eggs with fresh truffles grated over - Brut Champagne

Truffled pasta or truffled rissoto - Barolo, Barbaresco or a full-bodied Barbera d'Asti

Truffled oysters - the damned well best red Burgundy your bank account can afford

Truffles en sarcophage with concentrated demi-glace - Brunello di Montalcino, Sassicaia or Solaia

[Vinfidel]

i love wine and wine paring but if anything come in the way of my tartufo i get angry

seriousely i like a stinky burgundy with tartufo even if it is not authentic

sous bois aroma works very nicely

[Brad Ballinger]

Old Barolo, old Barbaresco, old Bandol -- provided they are drinking well and not so old as to be over the hill.

[PCL]

Splendid thoughts, Bubba. In essence, you're saying to treat your wine retailer like you would your butcher/fishmonger/greengrocer/fruiterer/fav barman... it's all about relationships!!

Develop a human one to augment the one with the Bacchus!

[Vinfidel]

not so sure I would call pork a heavy meat

you do a nice double-cut pork chop with apple sauce or apple compote char on the grill

i can see it would be great with a gewurtz or a riesling

[JohnL]

not so sure I would call pork a heavy meat

you do a nice double-cut pork chop with apple sauce or apple compote char on the grill

i can see it would be great with a gewurtz or a riesling

←

I agree.

With food and wine pairing, it is often difficult to generalize based upon the main ingredient. For example chicken can be successfully paired with almost every wine red or white. It all depends upon the preparation and the other ingredients in the dish.

pork is one of those items that can work with whites or reds in many styles based upon how the pork is prepared.

The other side of the coin is the difficulty in generalizing about wine when pairing it with food.

For example cabernet sauvignon and chardonnay are produced in many different styles even within the same geographical area--for eg. even being as specific as to note california chardonnay from the Russian River doesn't help much.

I have found it better to focus on the wine's flavor profile than its varietal type and origin.

What one is really attempting to do in wine and food pairing is to make a decision based upon the flavor profile of the food and the wine.

Whenever I sense a migrane coming on as a result of this process, I often throw all this out and just consider the dish I am going to make/eat and trace the dish to its place of origin then I ask myself : what would the locals drink with this?

[Vinfidel]

to me the best answer is like you said john

do like the locals do

another problem is use of oak that can make it hard with some foods

a good book is called RENAISSANCE WINE PAIRING on this topic, using both traditional and new pairing techniques. i forget exact but i think andrea immer and daniel boulud are involve in this book somehow, both are pairing maniacs

[JohnL]

to me the best answer is like you said john

do like the locals do

another problem is use of oak that can make it hard with some foods

a good book is called RENAISSANCE WINE PAIRING on this topic, using both traditional and new pairing techniques. i forget exact but i think andrea immer and daniel boulud are involve in this book somehow, both are pairing maniacs

←

Yes oak is a factor. Or it can be a factor.

I don't want to get into an oak vs no oak debate (would be fun in a separate thread though) javascript:emoticon(':rolleyes:')

Oak when well integrated is a very good thing.

Oak that is overdone is not and certainly not so good--and definitely is a factor in making a good match with food. I think many would agree that a well made Montrachet is a nice accompaniment to any number of foods. Often I like to pair a "buttery" rich chardonnay with food that is also buttery and rich.

It is all a matter of personal taste, though I think too many people are a tad "knee jerk" when the subject of oak presents itself.

What is important is an understanding of the wine's flavor profile so one is "armed" with enough knowledge to make a good choice. Oak aging is certainly a key factor in that profile--knowledge is good.

ps

thanks for the book tip.

[chuckyoufarley]

I need some help here.

My friends and I are going to being having a dinner party this weekend.

I have been given the task to serve a classic French Onion soup.

Rather than going the regular route I have taken it upon myself to commit to Thomas Keller's Bouchon cookbook, 2-3 day, 8 hour stock, 6 hour Onion carmelization Zen patience endurance test.

I also have some intention to float a whisper of port on top of the crust.

That said I also need a libation to pair with the soup.

I have done some research that has produced suggestions of Merlot, Beaujolais Nouveau, a sherry, and what was suggested as the traditional accompaniment, a Dry Gewürztraminer or Pinot Gris.

My assumption is that the soup will be really sweet with all the time invested with the onions.

I also am going to go with a Gruyere for the crust. I have a pretty decent relatively low pungent sample I’m going to use.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Shaun

[carswell]

what was suggested as the traditional accompaniment, a Dry Gewürztraminer or Pinot Gris

←

First time I've heard that. Every French food-and-wine pairing book I've seen has indicated that the traditional accompaniment to French onion or any other soup is no wine at all.

Have read that at Les Halles they served FOS with Beaujolais or young Côtes-du-Rhône.

Personally, I'd probably opt for a generic Burgundy or a fruity white from Gaillac, Jurançon or elsewhere in the Southwest. But, then again, I'd probably forego the Port.

A while back, an e-friend organized a comparison tasting that involved onion soup and several red wines, ranging from zinfandel and Amarone to a $3.99 vin de table from Trader Joe's. The Amarone and Médoc were not good matches; the zin, a Beaujolais and a generic French merlot were OK; to everyone's astonishment, the VDT took the prize. Make of that what you will.

Edited November 8, 2005 by carswell (log)

[jackal10]

Sherry or even better, madeira.

You could consider a white port.

Champage, of course, goes with anything

[Busboy]

Serve what you think tastes good. Think what you'd order in a Paris bistro -- probably just the house red. Get something a little rustic. I'd look for a burly little Cotes du Rhone, myself, though a nice Alsation sounds good, too -- that gewurtz or pinot gris (or pinot blanc, which I prefer).

[Jason Perlow]

Sherry or even better, madeira.

You could consider a white port.

Champage, of course, goes with anything

←

Yeah, I would say Sherry as well. Perhaps something on the light end of the scale.

A Cidre Bouche might not be bad either. You want something with high acid content I think to break up the oilyness and fattyness of the Gruyere cheese.

Busboy's Alsace reccomendation is also solid. I'm not a huge fan of drinking big ass boistrous reds such as Burgundies with Soupe L'Oignon (particularly because most of the recipes I have seen call for deglazing the onions with white wine, sherry or cognac or a combination thereof before the stock is added) unless of course you plan to serve a meat dish as your main course, like Steak Au Poive or something like that.

[chuckyoufarley]

The more I am thinking about it the more I am leaning towards a dry Alsatian of some sorts. I think a dry Alsatian will play nicely off the sweetness of the onions and the deck of Gruyere crust I'll have there.

A few of the dry alsatians I have should also be able to rip through the richness of the cheese as well.

I am going to most likely ditch the port on top of the cheese.

To much going on.

The night before the dinner I am going to try 3 or 4 different glasses to gain an assesment of what works.

We'll see.

Edited November 8, 2005 by chuckyoufarley (log)

[chuckyoufarley]

Sherry or even better, madeira.

You could consider a white port.

Champage, of course, goes with anything

←

Yeah, I would say Sherry as well. Perhaps something on the light end of the scale.

A Cidre Bouche might not be bad either. You want something with high acid content I think to break up the oilyness and fattyness of the Gruyere cheese.

Busboy's Alsace reccomendation is also solid. I'm not a huge fan of drinking big ass boistrous reds such as Burgundies with Soupe L'Oignon (particularly because most of the recipes I have seen call for deglazing the onions with white wine, sherry or cognac or a combination thereof before the stock is added) unless of course you plan to serve a meat dish as your main course, like Steak Au Poive or something like that.

←

The soup I am making is basically a really good beef stock, sachet and onions.

then the crouton and cheese.

No deglazing with any other booze.

The menu is going to be

1. French onion soup

2 Crispy Pork belly

3. The Balthazar Duck Shepherds pie

4. Choc Pot de Creme

Frankly, I cant freaking wait. I live for these dinners. We do a pot luck thing.

My two other buddies are ex-chefs as well so it almost turns into a whos got the biggest jimmy type of thing.

The food is always classic simple stuff but with a big effort made by everyone to bring out their A game.

Edited November 8, 2005 by chuckyoufarley (log)