Buttercream Frosting/Icing: The Topic

[lorea]

Do frozen egg whites mean they're pasteurized? I almost always use frozen egg whites since I tend to use up egg yolks and egg whites at a different rate, so I always freeze up my leftover egg parts for later use. I didn't realize what I was doing was pasteurizing them.

[spyddie]

I have no knowledge on how frozen egg is manifactured. I was told by supplier the frozen egg I ordered is pasteurized. I am not sure what processes are involve to pastureized the egg products, but personally I don't think is as simply as freeze it up. I have one question for Chefette, can you still whip the left over egg white, yolk or whole egg? I have never freeze the fresh egg before.

[JanKK]

Do frozen egg whites mean they're pasteurized? I almost always use frozen egg whites since I tend to use up egg yolks and egg whites at a different rate, so I always freeze up my leftover egg parts for later use. I didn't realize what I was doing was pasteurizing them.

Nope ...just freezing isn't pastueurizing. As I understand it, it's a heat pasteurization process ---taking the eggs to a high enough temp to kill bacteria without cooking them. Apparently, this can also be done in the shell.

I freeze egg whites all the time too and can't really tell the difference from fresh. Some people say they take a bit longer to whip into meringue, but I've never noticed that.

[chromedome]

I always have a few litres of egg whites in my freezer, and usually another in my fridge, since I get as many as I want from work (we use *WAAAYYYYY* more yolks than whites, even with dacquoises on the dessert menu). They are interchangeable with fresh in anything I've used them for. And they keep a whole lot better.

[spyddie]

Do frozen egg whites mean they're pasteurized?  I almost always use frozen egg whites since I tend to use up egg yolks and egg whites at a different rate, so I always freeze up my leftover egg parts for later use.  I didn't realize what I was doing was pasteurizing them.

Nope ...just freezing isn't pastueurizing. As I understand it, it's a heat pasteurization process ---taking the eggs to a high enough temp to kill bacteria without cooking them. Apparently, this can also be done in the shell.

I freeze egg whites all the time too and can't really tell the difference from fresh. Some people say they take a bit longer to whip into meringue, but I've never noticed that.

Someone correct me if I am wrong. From my understanding, it's the egg shell not the egg itself that contain most bacteria (Salmonella), am I right?

george

[lemon curd]

A university course that I recently completed included some discussion of egg pasteurization and egg safety. The text was "Understanding Food" by Amy Brown (2nd Edition, 2004). Here's a few excerpts:

Egg Pasteurization

USDA regulations require that all liquid, frozen or dried eggs be pasteurized or otherwise treated to protect against salmonella (I assume this means eggs that are available for purchase).  Commercially frozen egg whites often have added stabilizers and whipping aids to improve their ability to form large, stable foams. Eggs whites will denature (protein structure is distrupted) if pasteurized by themselves, so prior to pasteurization, a small amount of lactic acid and aluminum sulfate is sometimes added. When whole eggs are pasteurized (before freezing) they are heated to 140-143 deg F for three and one half minutes.

Egg Safety

The chances of an egg being internally contaminated are relatively low, less than 1 in 10,000.  They can become internally contaminated through a hen with Salmonella Enteritidis infection in her ovary or oviduct, or from absorbing bacteria through the pores.  The latter can occur if the eggs are boiled and then cooled in the presence of infected water or an infected food handler.  Externally, the eggs may be also exposed to Salmonella Enteritidis by fecal contamination during egg laying.  The Center for Disease Cotnrol implicated eggs as the source for 73 percent of Salmonella Enteritidis outbreaks.

[Dee]

I have wondered about the difference between Swiss and Italian meringue buttercreams for quite awhile now. I used to do the Italian and when I discovered the Swiss, I was so relieved since it so much easier. BUt I was concerned that maybe it wasn't as simple as that and maybe one was safer or more stable than the other. I use the buttercream for wedding cakes mostly and haven't really noticed any trouble with my current method but the thought was in the back of my mind still that maybe the Italian method is what I should be using instead.

On the egg whites topic, I've definitely noticed a difference between the whipping quality of fresh egg white and commercial pasteurized egg whites; the fresh whip up much nicer and thicker resulting in a whiter, fluffier product. But, I still use the packaged whites often because they are still adequately workable and faster than cracking and separating eggs, unless I happen to be using a lot of yolks for another recipe.

This might be an interesting side by side comparison study to do just to really not the differences!

[Phish]

Can you make buttercream without yolks?

[chefpeon]

Can you make buttercream without yolks?

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Yes, read the above post by PastryLady.

[ChocoChris]

Hi,

I am making a wedding cake for a wedding that will be outdoors on Sept. 17. To familiarize myself with the buttercream the bride requested, I've made it a couple of times and this brought up a couple of questions. First, the recipe in a nutshell...I cook a milk and flour mixture over a double boiler until thickened, cream the sugar and butter, add flavoring and then mix in the thickened flour/milk mixture. I'm sure many of you are familiar with this type of buttercream.

From what I've seen so far, this buttercream seems to melt very quickly once it starts to reach room temp. Is there any way to stabilize it, for example, adding in some shortening? If so, what ratio would you think would work? The basic recipe that I am working from makes about 4 1/2 c. of frosting and uses 1 1/2 c. butter. Would adding more butter help?

Also, is it ok to make this type of frosting at least a week ahead of time and keep it chilled in the fridge?

Thanks so much for any guidance.

Chris

[ladyyoung98]

actually ive never even heard of that combination for buttercream frosting..thats not to say such does not exist but to my knowledge it isnt the standard recipe..the buttercream recipes i use call for either butter or shortening (though ive never decided which one i like working with best) and it calls for lots of powdered sugar..but ive never even heard of a buttercream recipe where you cook any portion of it...any time ive ever used a frosting recipe that calls for cooking its generally been one made with egg whites with a hot syrup mixture added to it as you beat it into the already beaten egg whites..so given what you have said and without knowing the recipe or the steps involved..i could not even begin to suggest how to stabilize it..however the good news is that there are some very fine pastry chefs here on eg who have vast knowledge that i dont have and i freely admit my knowledge in the buttercream area is severely limited to what i know works for me..and generally when i find something that works i tend to stick with it..one thing i do know is that there are sabalizers out there that can be purchased but i cold not tell u what they are or where they are..trust me if ever i had to use one id be askign the folks here abotu them...good luck with the wedding

[chefpeon]

I must say, I've never heard of that type of buttercream.

What function does the milk/flour mixture serve? That really puzzles me.

To answer your question about shortening.......sure you can add it, and the fact that it has a higher melting point would certainly help with your "melting" problems, but wow......that would really mess with the taste. It most certainly would leave an unpleasant mouthfeel. And wouldn't the bride become upset if you tinkered with the recipe she requested?

If it were me:

I'd be dead honest with the bride and tell her I was having trouble with the stability of the buttercream. I'd tell her I was concerned about the cake holding up because of it. I would tell

her I would need to use a more stable buttercream in order to guarantee the success of her cake.

But that's me. A lot of brides don't understand "stability" issues. It's our job to educate them.

[K8memphis]

Now I make one with a cooked mixure of granulated sugar, milk and flour, let it cool completely then add the butter and vanilla and salt. Kinda sorta like yours. And it would be death and hell for an outside wedding.

Umm the only substance I know of to beef up icing for high humidity or something like that is cornstarch or flour like Wondra. It doesn't change the mouthfeel, but it changes the way it slides down your throat. But really it is un-noticeable when you are swallowing the cake with it. When you just get a dollop of icing and eat it, it's a little 'firm' going down y'know?

So yeah, have no reservations shooting straight with the bride. I think being clueless is prerequisite to wedding planning

[lapasterie]

I have been using a recipe like this for years. Everyone loves it because it is light and fluffy and not sweet. It will get soft at room temp but I have used it for many wedding cakes . The following is 1x=8" cake which I just increase for larger cakes;

76g cake flour

242g milk

85g butter

92g cold shortening{I use Sweetex}

1/4 tsp salt

1 tsp vanilla

148g Sugar

I wisk together the flour, salt and the milk in a saucepan and cookover med heat stirring with a wooden spoon to thick like mashed potatoes.

Chill till cold

In a mixer with a paddle cream together the butter, shortening and sugar

Add the cold flour mixture and the vanilla

Keep mixing at med speed for about 20 minutes

[fiftydollars]

...buttercream with flour cooked on a double boiler... It's fluffy and not too sweet...

You guys are blowin' my effin' mind!

[abique]

fiftydollars,

My thoughts exactly!

[K8memphis]

...buttercream with flour cooked on a double boiler... It's fluffy and not too sweet...

You guys are blowin' my effin' mind!

←

fiftydollars,

My thoughts exactly!

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Bwoo ahahahahaha

Except I do not use a double boiler I just use a heavy pan. My measurements are in cups. I've made this stuff for decades. Then I finally switched to Margaret Braun's Vanilla buttercream which is swiss meringue buttercream.

Mine is

one & a third cup granulated sugar

one half cup a.p. flour

combine well in heavy saucepan & add

one and a half cup of milk

half teaspoon salt

cook stirring constantly until it bubbles like lava

when it is completely cold add,

four sticks room temp butter

and a good two teaspoons of vanilla

beat well

--try it try it!! Yah gonna love it!

[etalanian]

I have to agree...I've never heard of any kind of "buttercream" like this before, and I can't imagine what it would taste like. I guess like sweet, thick chicken gravy with out the chicken??? And why is it so popular if it melts so easily? Sorry, but I am mystified.

edited for spelling error

Edited September 7, 2005 by etalanian (log)

[ChocoChris]

As I understand it, this is an old recipe. The flour/milk mixture is a thickener. I've heard people call it a custard based buttercream which makes no sense to me. When I first read the recipe I was baffled but it does come together quickly. It just doesn't stay together well in the heat.

It tastes better than I thought it would. A little sweeter than the usual Italian buttercream that I use. I'll have to try the recipes suggested here.

Thanks!!

Chris

[K8memphis]

I have to agree...I've never heard of any kind of "buttercream" like this before, and I can't imagine what it would taste like. I guess like sweet, thick chicken gravy with out the chicken??? And why is it so popular if it melts so easily? Sorry, but I am mystified.

edited for spelling error

←

It tastes kinda like a smb but made with flour instead of egg whites y'know? It melts as fast any other icing made with butter. I mean chicken gravy would not stick to the cake. I don't think it is all that popular as in well known, but it is a reasonable alternative to 'sweet' powdered sugar non-cooked buttercreams.

I mentioned it in the wedding cake demo I did about my kids wedding cake. You cook a paste and add butter. In a swiss mb you cook egg whites, beat to a meringue and add butter.

It tastes like ice cream, very rich.

edited to add: Like the smbc would be a 'clear' texture and mouth feel

the flour based bc would be a 'cloudy' texture and mouth feel, both very light.

Edited September 7, 2005 by K8memphis (log)

[Wendy DeBord]

This frosting is what's classically used to frost red cakes (although I've learned lots of people also use a cream cheese frosting with red cakes too). It's not far from a german buttercream, just not quite as rich.

I never had any problems with this being any more heat sensitive than any other all butter cream frosting. But the recipe I use isn't real agile when it comes to decorating with it. It feels alot like pastry cream when you spread it.

As to your bride.........this may be a family recipe that she'd rather make compromises on decor and how long it's out in the heat, then to scratch this and go with another frosting recipe. The people I know that like this frosting, love it... and don't like other buttercreams.

If worse came to worse you could compromise and use this frosting as your filling and then a buttercream you like better for the exterior.

[lapasterie]

Here is another BC recipe that comes from Rosemary Watson[if you are into cake decorating you will recognize her] She called it her "Almost Perfect BC"

1# butter

1# Crisco

85 g Dry milk powder

85 g Water

1 tsp Vanilla

2# 10X sugar

4oz Pasteurized Egg whites-thawed

Cream butter and Crisco 5 min till light

Combine dry milk powder, water and vanilla and add to above

Beat in the 10X and whites till fluffy

I used this to do a basket weave wedding cake that was out doors in the fall in NJ

[chefcyn]

Uh, guys and gals, this is French Buttercream, a very old classic recipe.

Just so you know

[Wendy DeBord]

O.k. I for one am confused.

The recipe of making a simple pastry cream (sans eggs) seems clearly different to me then the recipe posted by lapasterie, am I alone?

French buttercream involves eggs, not cooked flour and completely different techniques........I can't put any similarities together. Chefcyn could you post a reference/source or recipe where you learned that this is an old french butter cream recipe please?

[chefpeon]

Add me in on the confused list too.

I thought french buttercream involved egg yolks (or whole eggs) and a hot sugar syrup.

On another thread about German Buttercream, it seemed that one was very pastry-cream-ish.

Since this thread is the first I've come across a buttercream that involves milk and flour, I don't know what to call it, but I'm pretty sure it ain't french.